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Choice of race based on Lore identification.

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Tavin Aikisen
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#21 - 2017-04-19 23:09:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tavin Aikisen
Not only did I select my character based on my fascination with the Caldari race, I actually recreated him years later just so I could derive a Caldari name based on NPCs and characters from EON fiction. This character started in 2011, but I've actually been playing "the same character" since 2008.

When I create characters in a game, I try to base them on myself as a player. So aspects of Tavin's personality, belief structure and behaviour are all derived from my own. They aren't identical though, they can represent extremes. And this is where I was fascinated by the Caldari.

I like structure. I work in a job that has a very strict rank structure and can appear or feel a little unnatural at times. But it works. The Caldari have a similar structure throughout their entire society. And its magnitude is unlike anything we know in the real world. Their sense of nationalism and ethnocentricity was appealing to me as a player, but also something I find myself a little empathetic towards in real life.

My primary goal with gaming is immersion and experience. I find myself interested in simulation games before arcade and therefore delved deeper into the lore until it felt really familiar and then recreated my character to the point where such a foreign concept as the Caldari feels familiar, and the other races foreign, much like Tavin would perceive it contextually.

"Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home."

-Cold Wind
Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2017-04-19 23:39:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Telegram Sam
Victoria Grey wrote:
Ah that makes sense. Thanks for pointing me to that page, most of my reading from that website had been about the Elders and the Vherokior.

At some point, I've been meaning to make a call out to anyone interested in helping me compile all the CCP and player created lore and RP resources from language(s) excerpts, to spirits, to geography, to legends, to rituals, to "day-in-the-life-of-a-___" into a sort of Minmatar lore compendium or something. We see so much about Caldari (from their structure, the personalities of every CEO, to their language), Gallente (from the member races, to in depth military practices and ranks, to the structure of their entertainment sector), and Amarr (from the succession of the royal families, the secret orders of governments, to practices and families of holders and various religious rules) lore but yet it's a little harder to piece together Matari lore as it's all kind of scattered about. I'd like to remedy that.

That's really great. I'd love to see a kind of encyclopedia or sources list for Matari lore.

Regarding the animistic beliefs, a question: What does everything think about mystical events in New Eden? For example, clairvoyance, psychic premonitions, that kind of thing. On the one hand, it seems that the lore only supports a physical universe-- purely cause and effect within ordinary physics, "supernatural" things do not exist.

But on the other hand, the Minmatar are animistic, and they have professional shamans.* And at the same time, the Minmatar are advanced scientists and engineers, and able to build space stations, stargates, and design FTL ships that are competitive with those of the other three races . If the animistic and shamanistic beliefs produce no observable results, arguably an advanced technological/scientific society would stop believing in them.

(In a way, the same is true for Amarr and their church and religion. But it's a little different. The lore hints that Amarr religion is a kind of opiate of the masses, and also a means for unifying the Empire and helping the power elite keep themselves in control. But animism and shamanism are different. There's no church, tithes, religious hierarchies, or written doctrines. They are just home and hearth beliefs that people hold, or don't hold. So the politics and power motivation isn't much there. So it would seem that they exist only because Matari individuals, families, and communities choose to continue to believe in those beliefs. Is it because of just stubborn superstition, or because 'supernatural' things do happen in New Eden?)

I ask because I've got a story plot in mind. If shamanistic intuitions/foresight exist in New Eden, it will go one way. But if not, it has to go another way. (Which probably is not near as interesting. I've got a vested interest in what everybody thinks. Smile)

*There's a two- or three-stage agent mission that involves retrieving a shaman hermit.
Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2017-04-20 00:10:26 UTC
Telegram Sam wrote:
Victoria Grey wrote:
Ah that makes sense. Thanks for pointing me to that page, most of my reading from that website had been about the Elders and the Vherokior.

At some point, I've been meaning to make a call out to anyone interested in helping me compile all the CCP and player created lore and RP resources from language(s) excerpts, to spirits, to geography, to legends, to rituals, to "day-in-the-life-of-a-___" into a sort of Minmatar lore compendium or something. We see so much about Caldari (from their structure, the personalities of every CEO, to their language), Gallente (from the member races, to in depth military practices and ranks, to the structure of their entertainment sector), and Amarr (from the succession of the royal families, the secret orders of governments, to practices and families of holders and various religious rules) lore but yet it's a little harder to piece together Matari lore as it's all kind of scattered about. I'd like to remedy that.

That's really great. I'd love to see a kind of encyclopedia or sources list for Matari lore.

Regarding the animistic beliefs, a question: What does everything think about mystical events in New Eden? For example, clairvoyance, psychic premonitions, that kind of thing. On the one hand, it seems that the lore only supports a physical universe-- purely cause and effect within ordinary physics, "supernatural" things do not exist.

But on the other hand, the Minmatar are animistic, and they have professional shamans.* And at the same time, the Minmatar are advanced scientists and engineers, and able to build space stations, stargates, and design FTL ships that are competitive with those of the other three races . If the animistic and shamanistic beliefs produce no observable results, arguably an advanced technological/scientific society would stop believing in them.

(In a way, the same is true for Amarr and their church and religion. But it's a little different. The lore hints that Amarr religion is a kind of opiate of the masses, and also a means for unifying the Empire and helping the power elite keep themselves in control. But animism and shamanism are different. There's no church, tithes, religious hierarchies, or written doctrines. They are just home and hearth beliefs that people hold, or don't hold. So the politics and power motivation isn't much there. So it would seem that they exist only because Matari individuals, families, and communities choose to continue to believe in those beliefs. Is it because of just stubborn superstition, or because 'supernatural' things do happen in New Eden?)

I ask because I've got a story plot in mind. If shamanistic intuitions/foresight exist in New Eden, it will go one way. But if not, it has to go another way. (Which probably is not near as interesting. I've got a vested interest in what everybody thinks. Smile)

*There's a two- or three-stage agent mission that involves retrieving a shaman hermit.



OK so this is going to be a big big answer. And I've got like 4 minutes before my Fiancé picks me up from work so I don't really have the time today to write it out fully.

So I'll write it tomorrow morning at ~ 16:00 NEST.

Keywords: Elders, Tulraug Form, Spirit realm, Spirits, Voluval.
Hetu Hegirin
Doomheim
#24 - 2017-04-20 13:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Hetu Hegirin
Telegram Sam wrote:
Regarding the animistic beliefs, a question: What does everything think about mystical events in New Eden? For example, clairvoyance, psychic premonitions, that kind of thing. On the one hand, it seems that the lore only supports a physical universe-- purely cause and effect within ordinary physics, "supernatural" things do not exist.

But on the other hand, the Minmatar are animistic, and they have professional shamans.* And at the same time, the Minmatar are advanced scientists and engineers, and able to build space stations, stargates, and design FTL ships that are competitive with those of the other three races. If the animistic and shamanistic beliefs produce no observable results, arguably an advanced technological/scientific society would stop believing in them.

My take on this isn't thoroughly developed, but it was written into the background of this character. Her in-game bio, for example, reads more like a tabloid clipping that appeals to baseliner suspicions. Yet, like most capsuleers, she's an engineer and physicist, among other things. The sciences of this society have gotten deeper into the miniscule forces that govern reality, and that practice explains 'how' to function as a physical being in New Eden. The grand-scheme, 'why' oriented questions remain unsatisfied. It is this cosmological enigma that fuels her mysticism, which I feel is probably not all that uncommon among Matari.

It would be neat to see a Minmatar shaman or medium who claims we simply haven't developed a science for 'proving the ancestors guide us'. This wouldn't necessarily eliminate the development of such a science, but I wonder I haven't diverged too far from OP's original question.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2017-04-20 15:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
My take is thus:

Animism simply meant that we believe that the universe and everything inside it, inanimate objects included, are alive. As such, they all have spirits. Where back in the day a mariner will claim to 'hear' the spirit of the wind warn him of an impending storm, these days, a mariner will look at a barometer and know a storm is coming. Where a hunter once explain how he could find prey by communing with the spirit of the woods, now, a hunter explain how he could find prey by smell, hearing and by seeing the tracks.

Get my drift there?

So a Shaman is someone who is particularly adept at detecting changes in the environment and interprets it as the spirits of his environment trying to communicate something. At least this is true for matters involving the physical. As for things non-physical, well, that is more complicated. What science and tech did was make it easier for even the 'spiritually insensitive' to commune with the spirit of his environment e.g. a voltmeter and other expert instruments makes it possible for an engineer to hear the machine's pain and figure out what ails the machine. Still, need a Shaman (and alot of hallucinogens) to speak to ancestors though.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Terran Solis
House of Solis
#26 - 2017-04-20 20:22:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Terran Solis
As a role player with a tabletop background, my characters - no matter the game - would have to have a background with context behind every action, and one thing to look at prior is the game's lore. I'm relatively new, but what I have done in so many previous games should apply to Eve Online as well. The approach I'd have wanted to take before structuring a character but after looking at Eve (a supposed pure role playing game where you can take on literally any role that's not necessarily a dungeon delver) was that I wanted them to be some sort of businessman or trader, with a compatible family backstory. So I had a look at each race's background.

The first race I looked at were the Amarr, because they seemed like quite the faction: size, life span, empire, and it had become my initial choice for a character. Shortly after, I looked at the Caldari and I almost immediately felt as though it suited what character I had in mind. It reminded me of one of my old play throughs of Stellaris, where I played an oligarchical society strong with materialistic possessions. After a look at Gallente (which was a close alternative) and the Minmatar (which was impressive, but was not the community I was looking for) I had finally picked one of the Caldari races based mostly on cosmetics, though I did pay attention to descriptions, eventually building up the final backstory behind Terran, one of the Deteis. I felt that it suited what individual I'd imagine him as as well as what a Deteis male is described as. I plan to make it more in depth, but this is what I ended up with.

Thus far, I'm satisfied with the decisions I've made since starting the character, though I don't deny that - for the sake of getting agent missions out the way - I have done several things that Terran wouldn't have done.
Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2017-04-21 23:40:13 UTC
Telegram Sam wrote:

Regarding the animistic beliefs, a question: What does everything think about mystical events in New Eden? For example, clairvoyance, psychic premonitions, that kind of thing. On the one hand, it seems that the lore only supports a physical universe-- purely cause and effect within ordinary physics, "supernatural" things do not exist.

But on the other hand, the Minmatar are animistic, and they have professional shamans.* And at the same time, the Minmatar are advanced scientists and engineers, and able to build space stations, stargates, and design FTL ships that are competitive with those of the other three races . If the animistic and shamanistic beliefs produce no observable results, arguably an advanced technological/scientific society would stop believing in them.


Ok, I'm back and ready to answer your question. I can't promise you that it will be complete as Matari lore is scattered pretty much everywhere and some of it is lost and others are random mentions in the CCP World News channel of their community site (thus why I'd like to create a compendium with references and links and stuff).

Before you suicide your free time with this post, keep in mind that this is a wall of text that will take four posts to complete… just so you know… I have it in a word doc at 9 pages.

In order to coherently answer, I think you have three questions you are asking:


  1. How is the Animistic beliefs viewed by the Minmatar?
  2. How is shamanistic, ritualistic, and supposedly quasi-psychic beliefs rationalized with crazy advanced science and education.
  3. And lastly, is all of that psychic and spirits stuff real in New Eden?


I'll answer each question in its own paragraph(s) but in short:


  1. It Varies Wildly between groups but in general most believe in the Elders and most believe in Spirits
  2. Same way people believe in Nirvana and the Dalai Lama's and Panchen Lama's reincarnation cycles.
  3. ...maybe? But prolly not... maybe... It's intentionally left vague with possibilities open.



Now onto the more advanced portions of the explanation (numbered footnotes after the last post on where I found what I found):


  1. What are the Animistic beliefs of the Minmatar?


As you've heard, prolly countless times, the beliefs among the Minmatar are VASTLY varied. So each portion of the answer to this question will have to include all of the answers that I know of following the basic and classic example that can mostly be agreed upon by most Matari. With that out of the way, the four core beliefs that are relatively universal:


  1. A belief in Spirits and the Spirit realm.
  2. A belief in an afterlife and a special quality to one's ancestors.
  3. A belief in destiny/purpose and the Voluval ritual.
  4. A belief in a pantheon deified half(-ish) spirits called The Elders


Spirits/Spirit Realm & The Ancestors

You'll notice that I combined the first two things (Spirits & Ancestors and The Spiritual realm & Afterlife). This is largely because depending on the tribe and clan, these can be any combination of the same thing or different things. In general, the Matari believe that there is another realm out there behind the physical one that we see where the spirits live. Depending on the Tribe and clan, the spirits can be spiritual manifestations of ideas or objects¹, good and evil spirits without much ties to physical objects and ideas (similar to spirits in Hinduism, daimon/daemon in ancient Greek, or yokai in Japan), and/or the Ancestors.

Similarly, the ancestors are often held very highly and have rituals to commune with or respect similarly to spirits. There are some beliefs that there is an afterlife that you join your ancestors in and some beliefs that only some may join and others that don't even believe there is an afterlife at all.

As the idea of spirits is extremely varied it's hard to really pin down one belief as being more core than another. One thing to note though, that it is likely (this is just my conjecture) most of a clan will believe in one set of beliefs, so clan-wide traditions likely trump others. It should also be noted that since a lot of the beliefs are similar enough, it's not too hard for one clan to understand another but if I'm reading correctly, there have been clan wars in the past/far past due to misunderstandings and spiritual differences/conflicts (much like you see in our own history). A third note as well that atheism (or similar word for a lack of belief in spirits... as most versions of Minmatar beliefs (sans those of the Nefantar) are not particularly theistic in the first place) is not uncommon either. A lot of the rituals such as the Voluval remain as superstitions and important pieces of the cultural identity. As an example, for a lot of Americans the typical format for Marriage ceremonies/Receptions are often more or less similar to each other despite the belief systems of the individual.

So, to sum up this belief, a lot of Minmatar have a belief that there is an afterlife and spirits and they have rituals to pay homage, show respect for, or to gain spiritual benefits from.
Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2017-04-21 23:51:07 UTC
Cont.
Destiny & The Voluval Ritual ²

I added the foot note marker to the title because almost all of this is taken from a wiki page and the Voluval chronicle. I'm not going to describe it in full detail one because there are several things I don't understand about it and two because you wanted a brief example of what the Matari beliefs are and destiny is one of them. And to talk about destiny is basically to talk about the Voluval.

Very briefly, The Voluval is a near universal coming-of-age ritual that has a process that is a highly guarded secret. Essentially it is a tattooing process that creates marks under the skin. There are certain markings that are common and others that are uncommon so two Matari could have the same Voluval markings. Essentially these markings show off a kind of destiny if you will and have an effect on your image within Matari society. They say, in the vaguest of terms, what kind of life you will lead and what kind of spiritual forces will be in play throughout your life. It might be important to note though, that this doesn’t mean that this creates a Caste system. It does come close though.
Here's a quote from the wiki page on what kind of marks can occur:
Quote:

Most Voluval ceremonies end with the participants being welcomed and recognized by the tribe. Nearly all marks tend to be benign, with some even tending towards being hereditary, like the horned triangle of the Graur family. Karin Midular's mark, the Ray of Matar, is the rarest and most auspicious of the Voluval marks.
The rarest of the negative marks such as the Pale Eye, the Face of Helina, or the Broken Shield can see its bearer out cast by the Minmatar, banished to Arzad II. Less rare, though still not common, are the other detrimental marks such as the Spiraling Circle, the Scarecrow, the Purple Cross, or the Slaver's Fang. These marks may force the bearer into a self-imposed, life-time vow of silence, under traditional penalty of having their tongues cut out should they ever break it. In recent years, it has become common for those with these marks to choose a life of exile over the burden of bearing their shame amongst their kin.


A few notes on the Voluval. First, it is unclear to me if this tattooing process creates colored markings on the skin or if the skin becomes raised of indented. Most sources seem to point to the former but there have been places that have mentioned the latter. In either case, the ritual creates a marking of some kind that is recognizable. The second note, is that I don’t know where the mark appears. None of the sources are clear on that front but it seems to be anywhere on the body. And the third and final note is that the Voluval is not the only important tattoo that Matari get. Most clans have tattoos that one gets alongside the Voluval that mark them to that clan or tribe. It’s a familial thing. ³
Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2017-04-22 00:01:00 UTC
Cont.
The Elders & The Tulraug ¹¹

I made this the last answer to your first question for three reasons. It is the portion that most interests me, it seems as ubiquitous to Matari belief as the Voluval is, and it has many reaching implications that touch on your second and third questions. So, I want you to remember this part as I move on to your second and third questions (which, hopefully are less walls of texts walls). Now without further ado, I’ll try to briefly explain the Elders, the Tulraug, and then their semi-deification in Matari beliefs.

If I were to make a single sentence that would give you the gist of who the Elders are and how they fit into Matari animism, it would be this: The Elders are like seven Dalai Lamas, one for each Tribe. Essentially, they are the continually reincarnated progenitors/first leaders of each tribe who were deified after a critical point of Matar’s history when the Matari grouped together into seven massive Tribes. I’m not going to go over their formation in depth as you can read it on the wiki that I linked.

Essentially, The Elders that led their respective tribes during a specific time that unified the Minmatar people into a great empire did so by either being helped by benevolent spirits (through communing or the gifting of special objects known today simply as the Artifacts.) or being set back by malevolent spirits (like shifting the winds or sinking islands) or otherwise making capricious deals with the leaders. Due to spirits having a heavy hand in the lives of those that would become known as The First Elders, upon the death of each Elder they would return to the physical realm as a quasi-spirit form wearing a whitish robe with a mask adorned with symbols representing the sigil of that particular Elder. That Tulraug would then roam Matar until it found its next reincarnation and reincarnated into a new body. For a history on the Elders you’ll have to read the wiki article I’ve linked.

Since the time of the First Elders, the spirit of the Elder has reincarnated again and again. Each incarnation is named after the First Elder they are the reincarnation of and each represent the idea behind that Elder. As a note, it is unclear if each tribe is named after their Elder or the other way around. The answer to that would be a hint to how the Matari languages work (for example, each tribe is the name of the elder but with the suffix ‘ter’, ‘tar’, ‘ker’, ‘ior’, ‘manir’, ‘or’, and ‘ual’. Each of these may mean ‘of the’ or something similar with differences according to the linguistic differences in the language of each tribe but I digress. My lingua-fascination is getting the better of me 😝).

Quote:

Sebiess - Innovative, Thinker, Developer
Nefan - Patient, Practical, Dedicated
Thuk - Nomadic, Individualistic, Self-sufficient
Vheroka - Versatile, Welcoming, Wise Teacher
Stark - Tall, Quick, Stoic
Brute - Martial, Disciplined, Strong
Kruss - Subversive, Cunning, Aberrant


Today (YC 119 as of this writing), the Elders are still in inexistence with the last we heard from them during the events of the Elder Fleet that saw the Thukker, Starkmanir, and Nefantar tribes rejoin the Republic. In practice, the Elders reincarnate similar to how the Dalai Lama reincarnates but with the added supernatural component of the Tulraug showing all who it’s next incarnation as. At the moment that an Elder’s next incarnation is found, the child is taken by the other Elders and renamed the name of their Elder. The family is then free to mourn their lost child and have a funeral. They are then taken to the Spirit realm and absorb the collective knowledge of their respective tribe. When they are seen in the physical realm, they are seen as either the Tulraug form or clothed in all white and wearing their predecessor’s mask. Politically and legally the Elders have similar power in the Republic as the Dalai Lama does but it practice a great deal more. They technically do not have the power of the Tribal Council or the Sanmatar. They are not subject to Republic rules and laws whatsoever as those are Material Realm trappings. And when they make decisions and orders, they are followed… basically always. Though they do not rule, they only seem to be there to make decisions of the future of the Minmatar people as a whole.

Now regarding the Tulraug form, it’s a little unclear what exactly it looks like though it seems to be robed and masked in the Mask of the Elder it is representing. When it speaks, it can speak in the voice of the latest Elder or any previous Elder. It’s been used to communicate through very long distances instantaneously. It’s appeared pretty much everywhere but Wormhole space and it must be somewhat terrifying to see as one account from the Brutor chronicles has a military chief attempt to kill it in fear only for his knife to pass through without touching anything before the Tulraug stays his hand. As I’ve mentioned earlier, the Tulraug is an important part of the life cycle of an Elder.

So to sum up, The Elders are almost deities in a very very similar way to how the Dalai Lama is a semi deity to Tibetan Buddhists and they are able to become/create/something a half-spirit form that can travel distances for them.
Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2017-04-22 00:11:12 UTC
Cont.

2. How is Matari animism/shamanism reconciled with Matari scientific ingenuity?


Whew! Now that we got the explanation portion out of the way, I think these next two answers should be much MUCH smaller! Luckily this and the next questions answers are pretty linked.

So how do the Matari people (that do) believe in spirits and such while on a ship researching cures for deadly and measurable deceases (Science!)? Well it’s different from tribe to tribe and clan to clan as previously stated but a simple answer is sometimes it can and sometimes it can’t depending on the individual and what the belief is.

The longer answer that you were prolly looking for is that in practice, a lot of it is just rituals that you could do whether you believed in the source or not. And therefore, a lot of it isn’t all that conflicting as it just doesn’t interact. For example, the Voluval. It is done with heavy spiritual and shamanistic undertones but it’s also something you do and everyone does growing up. As stated earlier in this topic by someone else, the Sebiestor beliefs have a heavy focus in there being spirits representing most things in the universe . If you’ve ever played Werewolf: The Forsaken (by The Onyx Path Publishing) and read about their spirits being reflections of what we have in the physical realm it’d be kind of like that. In the Sebiestor sense, paying homage or respect to the spirits of whatever you’ll be working with that day is easy to explain in a similar to the way why I am an atheist but never touch a Ouija board (“…I don’t believe in ghosts… but…. I mean…. What if a dead thing beheads me or something…. You know what you guys have fun I think I’ll not take the chance”).

As for the Ancestors and the Afterlife, it’s easy enough to reconcile that as a lot of people do here in our reality. Even if they don’t believe in living ancestors or the afterlife, they still give their grandparents and ancestors seats at their wedding. They still put flowers by the grave or other similar cultural observances. Even if the supernatural belief isn’t there, the rituals remain and can have personal significance.

And for the Elders. Well that’s a hard one. For one, the Elders are all alive. And they spend their entire lives learning the histories of the Tribe you belong to. Even beyond the supernatural aspects and even if those supernatural aspects aren’t there, they still hold ENORMOUS cultural significance. That’s prolly why they wear the masks as they basically become the symbol of the Tribe.

So as a shorthand answer to this question, How does one believe in animistic spirits while also living in society where giant cities float above planets and satellites? Simply because the rituals and beliefs don’t necessarily interact with science. It’s a cultural and identity thing.
Victoria Grey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2017-04-22 00:23:14 UTC
Cont.

3. What is the Validity of the Supernatural Elements in New Eden?


On to the final and last question. The one that will likely be the most disappointing one to you as the answer is simply “/shrug… but prolly not”.

There are a few things in EVE online lore that have some supernatural elements. But they were left intentionally vague. It’s possible that the Amarrian God exists and hands laws out to the Emperor/Empress. It’s possible that Spirits exist and the Tulraug is a spiritual manifestation of an Elder. It’s possible that the Elders literally reincarnate and live mostly in the Spirit Realm. But it’s also possible that the Amarrian God is just words in a book, there are no spirits and the Appearances of the Tulraug have an explanation by a closely guarded secret, and it’s also possible that the choosing of the Next Elder is chosen by a secret order in the background or something. It’s all very vague.

Pretty much all of the supernatural stuff in New Eden can be handwaved as it’s just hardly visible to us really (the Amarrian God, Spirits, ETC… I don’t know much about the other two empires tbh…). The Tulraug is a bit harder to hand wave as apparently, it’s actually been seen and relatively frequently. To that I’ll quote the wiki:
Quote:

It is considered extremely offensive to enquire as to the actual science behind the manifestation of the Tulraug, presumably not only because it is the province of the Elders but also to protect the process by which they are generated, which is considered tainted concerning the bad spirits that were involved. Whilst it’s not understood how it was first achieved, in recent history the Tulraug form is rationalised variably as either a rudimentary form of cloning technology developed by the Elders, illusions that have become more technically sophisticated with the passage of time, hallucinations, hypnotic suggestions or a mix of all these elements. Traditionally, however, it is considered a thoughtform, resulting from the extreme mental and spiritual discipline of the Elder, who wills it into existence. It is a being that can take on the physical features of past Elders but in a very rudimentary way, seemingly influenced by those around it. It’s voice is usually that of the last Elder, though they have been known to speak with the voice of Elders long departed. Regardless of whether it appears as male or female or its individual features, like the current Elder themselves, the Tulraug is referred to by the name of the first Elder, such as Vheroka or Thuk. A mental projection, it does not require the Elder to have died, and is not confined by mass or distance. Some accounts of encounters with Tulraug involve it moving objects or having substantive form, but in other cases it’s described as incorporeal.


So the answer is: does your character believe in any of these? There is a precedent for spirit journeys/walks, seeing spirits, and witnessing the Tulraug but they can be explained away somehow.

With That, I am done. This took quite a bit to write and I hope it helps! To everyone, If you found stuff that I’m not aware of or something missing please let me know. There is so much Matari Lore just hiding behind several layers of obfuscation and I require more!
Footnotes:
¹ http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Sebiestor_spiritual_beliefs
² http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Voluval
³ http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Tattoos_(Chronicle)
¹¹ http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=The_Elders
Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2017-04-22 14:19:16 UTC
Victoria, thank you much for that excellent article! As you said, going through all of those sources would have involved suiciding a lot of free time. And that's assuming anyone would find all of them. I hope you save that article for sharing again.

I'd agree with your final conclusion regarding the existence of psychic forces, the paranormal or spirits in New Eden-- maybe, but probably not. Partly because I don't think it's likely that the writers who originally developed the lore believed in the existence of such things themselves. The various old Chronicles stories point to a kind of grimly realist, existentialist outlook. And the whole Amarr church + slavery thing kind of hints at cynicism toward RL organized religion and believers subjecting themselves to the control of superstition.

And, as you said, the lore is pretty artfully vague about with things such as the Tulraug are the result of spirit, technology, hallucination/mental suggestion, or just myth. But to me, it seems that the writers are ever so slightly hinting that it is technology, combined with the power of suggestion and group belief.

So, for my little story, I suppose I'll try to copy that model. An event may appear to be paranormal or spiritual. But elsewhere in the story, there may be a little event that could put that in doubt, so that the event may have just been a normal cause and effect result after all. Mission accomplished-- thank you!
Stig Elendil
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2017-04-22 18:17:03 UTC
So how do you classify Macaper ? (made after YC not before, we are in YC119 as you're probably aware).

What about the "Spirit" that was inside Jamyl Sarum's mind ? (and no, she wasn't schyzophrenic)

Technologies and Sciences don't mean people will believe in nothing else that can't be texhnolobicaly or scientificaly proved, i would arguably say it's the basic of humans, believing in whatever is unbelievable if they wish. Why in such a universe people would believe in Sani Sabik cults ?

I see nothing in Lore that forbid you to think that precognition-astrology-parapsychology-spectre-spirits-entities-etcetc are not used/believed by the vast majority of people (or just a low percentage of them) in New Eden.

Gallente speaking, people are free to believe in anything they wish, anything... :)
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2017-04-22 19:57:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Stig Elendil wrote:
So how do you classify Macaper ? (made after YC not before, we are in YC119 as you're probably aware).

What about the "Spirit" that was inside Jamyl Sarum's mind ? (and no, she wasn't schyzophrenic)

Technologies and Sciences don't mean people will believe in nothing else that can't be texhnolobicaly or scientificaly proved, i would arguably say it's the basic of humans, believing in whatever is unbelievable if they wish. Why in such a universe people would believe in Sani Sabik cults ?

I see nothing in Lore that forbid you to think that precognition-astrology-parapsychology-spectre-spirits-entities-etcetc are not used/believed by the vast majority of people (or just a low percentage of them) in New Eden.

Gallente speaking, people are free to believe in anything they wish, anything... :)


Macaper is a series of coincidences that people fit into his prophecy.

There is no 'Spirit' inside Jamyl Sarum's mind. It's a malicious Sleeper-originated artificial intelligence entity that has piggybacked her consciousness transfer into her clone's brain. That is revealed in Templar One.

Also, people still follow religions despite the advances of science. Why won't something similar happen in a sci-fi setting?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#35 - 2017-04-22 21:42:42 UTC
First: Excellent post(s) by Victoria. You get many likes!

Second: My take on is there supernatural things in EVE is this quote most of you are probably familiar with: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." I mean most of the more awe-insipring technology in this game, some used by us, some used by Drifters is basically magic as far as our current scientific understanding goes.
Stig Elendil
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2017-04-23 13:27:13 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Stig Elendil wrote:
So how do you classify Macaper ? (made after YC not before, we are in YC119 as you're probably aware).

What about the "Spirit" that was inside Jamyl Sarum's mind ? (and no, she wasn't schyzophrenic)

Technologies and Sciences don't mean people will believe in nothing else that can't be texhnolobicaly or scientificaly proved, i would arguably say it's the basic of humans, believing in whatever is unbelievable if they wish. Why in such a universe people would believe in Sani Sabik cults ?

I see nothing in Lore that forbid you to think that precognition-astrology-parapsychology-spectre-spirits-entities-etcetc are not used/believed by the vast majority of people (or just a low percentage of them) in New Eden.

Gallente speaking, people are free to believe in anything they wish, anything... :)


Macaper is a series of coincidences that people fit into his prophecy.

There is no 'Spirit' inside Jamyl Sarum's mind. It's a malicious Sleeper-originated artificial intelligence entity that has piggybacked her consciousness transfer into her clone's brain. That is revealed in Templar One.

Also, people still follow religions despite the advances of science. Why won't something similar happen in a sci-fi setting?


Thanks but those were kind of "reflections" about what citizen of New Eden might believe in or not.
I'm completely aware of Jamyl.
As for Macaper my point wasn't to say it is correct/wrong (coincidence/reality) but this exists and people can truely believe it is a true prophecy.
To be clear my point was to show that people can believe in many things, whatever they are, even in a "scientific advanced" environment. Sorry if my post wasn't clear.

+1 to Victoria.
ISD Archetys Traum
ISD New Eden Correspondents
ISD Alliance
#37 - 2017-04-24 14:48:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Archetys Traum
Loving this discussion, everyone, as it touches on a great deal of what has been fleshed out thus far for the Matari in particular. There’s more to come but in the interest of providing some inspiration and direction to refine future works I’d encourage you to continue sharing ideas and interpretations.

In response to Victoria’s call for assistance in compiling a Minmatar lore compendium can we direct you to the new EVE fiction portal. Those of us in the newly formed New Eden Correspondents (NEC – combining Mercury with the Interstellar Correspondents) share the same desire for something that will bring all elements together as well as continue to present new, enriching resources. I’d also plug the ISD itself here and ask you to consider applying to NEC if this is something you’d consider contributing to long term. The fiction portal is a work in progress that will eventually have the articles you’ve mentioned here from the previous Evelopedia, as well as new material. As you’ve said, the articles and ideas are scattered about, but our aim is to remedy this fact in a way where it can be shared with a broader EVE community.

If nothing else, as stated, please continue your inquiries into the nature of the Matari’s beliefs, culture and history. The ideas being shared here will help tremendously when it comes to finishing off some current works. My aim would be to eventually have spiritual beliefs articles for all the tribes in the same vein as the Sebiestor one, for example.

“It would be neat to see a Minmatar shaman or medium who claims we simply haven't developed a science for 'proving the ancestors guide us”. Hetu Hegirin – check out Vuld Haupt.

Can I also add several more +1’s to Victoria above.

In response to the suggestions that some things are left intentionally vague I can only say 'yes'. Of course. And I’ll do it again Big smile Many aspects of our beliefs here, now, in EVE’s far, far distant past are already laced with the uncertainty of things being concurrently true and untrue. If we knew that the supernatural was real and true it would no longer require belief and would lose that inherent magic (or technology indistinguishable from thus). Besides, struggle with duality is a smashing narrative device.

So I’m not too far off topic for the OP, while I can’t speak as a player right now Blink I can say that when I first joined Mercury it was in the hope that I might explore the beauty, sublimation and fundamental dissonance of the Amarr. Over time my fascination has also turned to the same schism of old world and new that occurs at the root of the Minmatar, and the rich conflict between those two empires. I’m always going to be interested to what I see as a conflict between organized religion and individualistic spirituality. At the end of the day I’d have to say that my writer’s heart is now Ammatar/Nefantar, because it lets me live in – and struggle with – the meeting of two worlds.

All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream - Poe

Archetys Traum - New Eden Correspondents

Interstellar Services Department

ISD is recruiting
Cybertherion
Doomheim
#38 - 2017-04-25 05:43:01 UTC
It was the mysticism element that got me.

I got really annoyed when the Amarrian Scriptures disappeared from easy online access, I was going to fully flesh out a heretical cultist offshoot of the Amarr faith. I'm religious myself, and have studied several esoteric teachings in-depth and taught occultism within a research society.

The way I see it, the Amarr would be deeply divided about their faith, being the eldest of the four empires. New Eden must be full of backwater planetary cults and breakaway sects, the Blood Raiders being the more obvious of these. The whole "religious in name" only thing and clannishness of the fluff is ripe for RP, especially the slavery concept and it's place within Amarrian culture. The definition of what slavery is in a religious sense is a perfect analogue to modern gnosticism as an example.

Since I am a martial artist by profession, I thought interweaving martial doctrines with spiritual ones would also be a fun way to form a play style with EvE, RP entirely aside.

I only post here if EvE is offline. Which means my posts are never well timed.

EAT KRABSAK.
Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2017-04-25 21:25:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Telegram Sam
ISD Archetys Traum wrote:

In response to Victoria’s call for assistance in compiling a Minmatar lore compendium can we direct you to the new EVE fiction portal. Those of us in the newly formed New Eden Correspondents (NEC – combining Mercury with the Interstellar Correspondents) share the same desire for something that will bring all elements together as well as continue to present new, enriching resources. I’d also plug the ISD itself here and ask you to consider applying to NEC if this is something you’d consider contributing to long term.

Archetys, could you let us know more about what's involved in being an NEC volunteer? It sounds interesting and I'd like to join in, if the time commitment isn't too huge. So as not to further sidetrack this thread, I've created a Volunteering for New Eden Correspondents? thread here in EVE Fiction.
Kogilla
Doomheim
#40 - 2017-06-08 15:13:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kogilla
An interesting topic, wish I'd seen it sooner.

I had a sort-of-religious upbringing living in the "Bible Belt" in the USA. Over time, though, I found myself growing more and more distant from that religious mindset and lifestyle. As you might imagine, persons on a non-religious disposition in those kinds of communities might have to learn how to "pass", especially if they wish to avoid any potential damage to their family's reputation in the community.

While I really admire certain cultural attitudes and characteristics among each of the four nations, particularly those of the Minmatar and Caldari, I feel as though the circumstances of my adolescent experience predispose me towards identifying as Amarrian. Especially the Amarrians that are "passing" to get by in their society (which is likely more common that the Amarr would ever admit). It's simply easier for me to imagine the experience of living in Amarr society than it is for me to imagine living in a futuristic tribal republic or a meritocratic collective.
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