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Nerfing Caldari?

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Novinya
Perkone
Caldari State
#361 - 2012-01-23 01:41:45 UTC
Mars Theran: the T1 version of the Nighthawk is the Drake.

Ignore the graphical glitch where it is using the Ferox hull: it's a missile ship, just like the Drake.

And even if it WAS based on the Ferox, it would STILL LOSE POWERGRID COMPARED TO THE TIER 1 VERSION OF THE SHIP IT IS BASED ON. In fact, it would lose HUNDREDS of power grid.
Ascendic
Polaris Syndicate
#362 - 2012-01-23 01:49:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ascendic
leich wrote:
Caldari are overpowered (For ratting)

The Tengu is the most over powered ship in game.

Based on the two above facts i think a caldari nerf is well overdue.

If you only fly Caldari i recomend you cross train now.





Oh I forgot about how REALLY overpowered ECM is.

Stop moaning faildari pilots.


Yes Caldari are the best PVE race bar none. But they are probably the worst PVP race. So you want to take their only 2 viable pvp ships and nerf them into the ground so that they become completely useless at PVP and are now PVE only and PVP once again is dominated by minmatar and amarr.

Yep that sure is balanced.

Are you fu*king stupid?
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#363 - 2012-01-23 02:11:19 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

There is a reason why it is the most used battlecruiser out there. The problem with the Drake is that it is does everything too well for little cost or sacrifice, while being easy to train for. Thus, and to an extent most of the tier 2 battlecruisers create a certain number of issues that should be addressed:


No. It is the most used BC because caldari players have no other PvP worthy ships they can fly. They are all forced into the drake.

Quote:
But why so serious? Let's put a smile on these faces.


Easy answer. Some of us have invested months or more training up a race that you guys have been pissing on for years now. You just finished pissing off a whole lot of Caldari pilots over with the hybrid naga, and now you are talking about wrecking the only sub-T3 combat ship we have left. And let's face it -- you have zero credibility with most of your playerbase. Your track record as a company indicates that when something is broken or unbalanced we can expect it to remain that way indefinately. After all, you aren't talking about nerfing the drake while fixing the entire remainder of the Caldari ship lineup.

Why so serious? You should take it MORE seriously than you obviously do. Your company is again looking at flushing another batch of subscriptions down the toilet.
Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#364 - 2012-01-23 03:43:08 UTC
Melangell wrote:

...Combined with a bit more damage - you might even find that level 4's become a sufficient challenge to be actually fun (or I might find that they become interesting for PvP)


Or, indeed, Epic Arcs.

The 'Wildfire' Arc is time well spent if only for the rewarded items. If one enjoys a well-written story within the confines of a video game, it's worth pursuing as an added bonus because, yes, it's rather enjoyable to follow.

From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Epic_mission_arcs

Hint: You are urged to pay close attention to the characters and unfolding story line of the epic mission arcs as they provide a number of clues, some subtle, some forthright, which are important in understanding the overall Eve storyline.

Lovely.

Except, this Arc, along with some others, is a level 4 series of missions. One should expect to complete them in something appropriate, but why not just use a t1 fitted Drake and, even as you enjoy CCP's story, one is able to double the entertainment value by reading an actual book, in one's lap, simultaneously. Only difficulty in 'Wildfire' using a Drake is keeping the reading material's individual pages horizontal somehow whilst one clicks somewhere on screen, here and there.

Point being made is that Drakes inculcate laziness, certainly in PvE/L4s/Epic Arcs. If you're unsure what to use, a Drake is nine times out of ten, a safer bet than almost anything else that is as cheap to lose.

This shouldn't and can't be right.

Should it?

"Modern Life is Rubbish"
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#365 - 2012-01-23 03:47:41 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Not-Apsalar wrote:

Here, we'll play a game.

Name the combat ships that Caldari has. You know, the ones that have real concepts and are allowed in fleets(small, medium, large, frig, bs, bc, whatever). Drake, Rokh, Tengu. Can you think of any others that are not support/tackle(not combat)?

Now lets name the Minmatar ships for the same.. Rifter, Stabber, Maelstrom, Tempest, Muninn, Rupture, Wolf, Jaguar, Vagabond, Loki, Rupture, Thrasher, Hurricane.. even the Typhoon and Cyclone have some combat utility(probably about as much as the Rokh).

It's not that nerfing the Drake makes 3/4 of the ships useless, it's that they're mostly useless outside of support roles already. If they want to make Caldari a support race, fine, come out and say it and give those that trained for combat a respec. Going the Raven and Caracal route doesn't work, or the Raven and Caracal would be more viable.

All those Caldari Ships you consider useless are getting re-balanced as per the CSM Minutes indicate along with Battlecruisers in general. It is a very strong possibility the Hurricane will see a nerf as it is also on the radar.

New Moa, new Caracal, new Osprey, new Merlin, new Blackbird, new Hawk, new Harpy, new Eagle, new Cerb, new Kestrel, new Ferox and while re-balancing the Drake we know what they are taking away but who knows what base stats they will adjust.

I am not near ready to go doom and gloom yet.


Rebalanced by the same crew who think the Drake is overpowered enough to warrant a nerf.
Soulpirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#366 - 2012-01-23 03:52:24 UTC
Ssakaa wrote:
Melangell wrote:

...Combined with a bit more damage - you might even find that level 4's become a sufficient challenge to be actually fun (or I might find that they become interesting for PvP)


Or, indeed, Epic Arcs.

The 'Wildfire' Arc is time well spent if only for the rewarded items. If one enjoys a well-written story within the confines of a video game, it's worth pursuing as an added bonus because, yes, it's rather enjoyable to follow.

From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Epic_mission_arcs

Hint: You are urged to pay close attention to the characters and unfolding story line of the epic mission arcs as they provide a number of clues, some subtle, some forthright, which are important in understanding the overall Eve storyline.

Lovely.

Except, this Arc, along with some others, is a level 4 series of missions. One should expect to complete them in something appropriate, but why not just use a t1 fitted Drake and, even as you enjoy CCP's story, one is able to double the entertainment value by reading an actual book, in one's lap, simultaneously. Only difficulty in 'Wildfire' using a Drake is keeping the reading material's individual pages horizontal somehow whilst one clicks somewhere on screen, here and there.

Point being made is that Drakes inculcate laziness, certainly in PvE/L4s/Epic Arcs. If you're unsure what to use, a Drake is nine times out of ten, a safer bet than almost anything else that is as cheap to lose.

This shouldn't and can't be right.

Should it?

LOL@ T1 Drakes afk'ing lvl4's Pull your head out of your backside.

If you only have the skills to fit T1 mods on a Drake it will die in a level 4.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#367 - 2012-01-23 03:53:58 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Rebalanced by the same crew who think the Drake is overpowered enough to warrant a nerf.
…except that they don't think it's overpowered, and that they are actually buffing it.

So no, not by the people you describe, but by some other people.
Alara IonStorm
#368 - 2012-01-23 03:56:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
OT Smithers wrote:

Rebalanced by the same crew who think the Drake is overpowered enough to warrant a nerf.

Yes but it isn't being nerfed into the ground as you say. Looking at the buffer stats I can get out of it I am not entirely displeased with the new Drake and it's 60-80k EHP Tank. If they change the Hurricanes second DPS Bonus I would say that the Drake and Cane would finally be close to balanced with the other 4 Battlecruisers.

With effective Cruiser Buffs just like the effective Drake Nerf Caldari, Minmatar Amarr and Gallente might be close to balanced Sub Battleship. The Rokh is now considered a passable fleet Battleship but with Artillery Alpha it isn't going anywhere fast but I doubt that has escaped CCP's attention.

Honestly I am optimistic especially since they seem to be planning to make Cruisers and Frigates faster, easier to fit and more solid in general.

Just looking at the new Hawk and Harpy as well as the balance between the other new Assault Frig Stats says good things to CCP's decisions on Balance, lets hope we get the same quality with Heavy Assault Ship as well.

Really hoping a Cane Nerf accompanies this Drake Nerf.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#369 - 2012-01-23 03:58:28 UTC
Hooray my harbinger is relevant again.
Ronk Cho Fat
Doomheim
#370 - 2012-01-23 04:13:02 UTC
I jus want to share my experience here, if CCP reads this thred. I do not think that this change is a nerf for the drake and maybe it will get more pvp use from it. I do not know for sure as I have not much pvp experience.

What I do know is that I am a caldari player for many years as a carebear and in recent months trying to join a pvp corporation has been terribly hard. Everywhere you go there are players who believe that caldari cannot be used in pvp except for drakes and wether or not that is true it is how that is portrayed. When I spoke with null corp recruiters today all of them told me that I hope to like flying scorpions while training for minmatar or amarr ships because that would be done asap.

All that I would like to ask of CCP is that they consider how caldari should be for pvp. Perhaps I am not wise in tactics enough to make this judgement, but I am basing this off what I am told by good pvpers including Garmon himself. Caldari are in desperate need of finding their role in pvp that isn't jam jam jam jam ecm because we all know that will have to be nerfed.

I am ok with this drake changes CCP, but please also consider that this race is in trouble and you should consider making them more viable in the same time.

Thank you and sorry for my english.
Mr M
Sebiestor Tribe
#371 - 2012-01-23 04:14:05 UTC
Boohoo! It not like they're forcing you to train Standard Missile Specialization 4 just to be able to use Heavy Missile Launcher IIs.

Share your experience

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www.eve-tribune.com
Spineker
#372 - 2012-01-23 04:18:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
Quote:
leich wrote:Caldari are overpowered (For ratting)

The Tengu is the most over powered ship in game.

Based on the two above facts i think a caldari nerf is well overdue.

If you only fly Caldari i recomend you cross train now.





Oh I forgot about how REALLY overpowered ECM is.

Stop moaning faildari pilots.


No that would be the Mach not the tengu, guess what ship that is? Minny oh noes!

More tears please we have not had enough today.

I think the Mach needs some serious nerfing! People may have fun with it so can't have that can we? Most powerful over all PVE ship in the game.
Spineker
#373 - 2012-01-23 04:21:44 UTC
Mr M wrote:
Boohoo! It not like they're forcing you to train Standard Missile Specialization 4 just to be able to use Heavy Missile Launcher IIs.



Not like you can get armor repping II without much work is there? Boohoo.
Ronk Cho Fat
Doomheim
#374 - 2012-01-23 04:36:14 UTC
Mr M wrote:
Boohoo! It not like they're forcing you to train Standard Missile Specialization 4 just to be able to use Heavy Missile Launcher IIs.


look everyone this minmatar is talking about caldari

not funny
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#375 - 2012-01-23 04:51:22 UTC
Ronk Cho Fat wrote:
I jus want to share my experience here, if CCP reads this thred. I do not think that this change is a nerf for the drake and maybe it will get more pvp use from it. I do not know for sure as I have not much pvp experience.

What I do know is that I am a caldari player for many years as a carebear and in recent months trying to join a pvp corporation has been terribly hard. Everywhere you go there are players who believe that caldari cannot be used in pvp except for drakes and wether or not that is true it is how that is portrayed. When I spoke with null corp recruiters today all of them told me that I hope to like flying scorpions while training for minmatar or amarr ships because that would be done asap.


Then you need to look for a different corp. Anyone who would say something that silly is no one you should fly with in PvP. Seriously. Caldari have issues, but advantages as well, and a good FC or corp leader knows that a good pilot is dangerous in anything.

Quote:
All that I would like to ask of CCP is that they consider how caldari should be for pvp. Perhaps I am not wise in tactics enough to make this judgement, but I am basing this off what I am told by good pvpers including Garmon himself. Caldari are in desperate need of finding their role in pvp that isn't jam jam jam jam ecm because we all know that will have to be nerfed.

I am ok with this drake changes CCP, but please also consider that this race is in trouble and you should consider making them more viable in the same time.

Thank you and sorry for my english.


Caldari definately need some help. No question.

However, you need to stop worrying about that kind of thing, pick something you enjoy flying, and learn to use it well, figure out what it can kill and what it takes to win. That's far more important than anything we are discussing in this thread.
Lili Lu
#376 - 2012-01-23 06:08:27 UTC
Harrigan VonStudly wrote:
The problem I have with a possible nerf to the Drake in the pipeline is it was not too terribly long ago that all the pro pvp elite were calling the Drake ****. And that only noobs used the Drake to pvp in. Now the pro pvp elite call for its nerf.

So which one is it? Is it OP and ruining pvp/the game or is it the choice of fail noob pvp'ers? It's one or the other.

Not too terribly long ago? What? Try two or three years ago. Lol

And that attitude was only because so many bears showed up in sprs and purger rigs expecting to tank a fleet fight. P Was followed by people saying hey wait, a BS sized buffer, with a resist bonus, and able to project (sufficient damage en mass) at a good range, by george this thing is a cheap BS . . .
Lili Lu
#377 - 2012-01-23 06:17:22 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:

If you take a Raven and a Mega, and active tank both of them; which one is better?

Actually, they are both pretty much the same, until you start putting on other fittings.

Things that would help:

Passive shield resist module like the Invuln. Wouldn't be a bad idea, considering a lot of the problem with Caldari is that the tank is easy to Cap out, and combining similar modules for armor and shield, ends up with armor having mostly higher resists.


[Megathron, Armor]

Damage Control II
Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Magnetic Membrane II
Energized Thermic Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Resists: 68.1 / 77 / 77 / 73.1 EHP: 87.4K Cap: 72% Defense Efficiency 271 Speed 144 m/s Align: 12.2 s Signature: 400 m Drones: 125 m3 / 125 Mbps

[Raven, Shield]

Damage Control II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Large Shield Booster II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II
Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II
Large Shield Extender II

Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Resists: 70.9 / 72.5 / 79.4 / 69.4 EHP: 89.2K Cap: 47% Defense Efficiency: 251 Speed: 118 m.s Align: 12.4 Signature: 509 m Drones: 75 m3 / 75 Mbps

The Raven is definitely a bit outclassed by the Mega, but it still comes close as a comparison, which it should. All around though, the Mega would be a better choice for PvP, no question. It's faster, aligns faster, has lower Sig, lower EHP with higher resists, more drones, and better defense efficiency.

It also requires half the fittings to give it this capability, and does it without requiring Rigs. Take that into account, and the fact that you can't fit Web or scram, and the Raven sucks; at least in this regard.

First of all, wtf are you doing fitting plates and repper, or LSE and booster? Second, where are your mwds? These look more like pve fits and even then what are you doing mixing buffer with repping? Why do you have 2 cprs and a large booster on the Raven? Lastly, what are you doing not fitting any weapons to these.

To use a meme, your post is full of failSad
Mr M
Sebiestor Tribe
#378 - 2012-01-23 08:02:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr M
Motorhead is a go!


Let's juggle some numbers why don't we? Just to see one of the differences between a drake and a hurricane. I create a Caldari Deiteis Mechandisers as a test character with a minimum of skills. He'll have to train Minmatar Frigate 2 but that takes only a couple of hours.

Test 1
First off, I admit I am no expert on drakes but I looked up this drake pvp fit on battleclinnic and it seems quite popular. I threw in hammerhead II and hobgoblin II drones.
Pyfa reports 46k EHP 86 HP/s passive tank.

The new guy I created needs about 35d with optimized attributes to get the required skills. Sure, he won't be a master pvper but it's a beginning.

Test 2
Let's do the same with a hurricane. I picked this hurricane pvp fit on battleclinic, swapped the web II to a X5 since that's what the drake used, and then I added hammerhead IIs and hobgoblin IIs.
EHP 93k

With optimized attributes it takes the new guy 56d to train up the required skills to fly it. Change the plates for an active tank and it takes 58d instead.


Conclusion
It takes almost twice as long to train for a hurricane.

Share your experience

Write for the EVE Tribune

www.eve-tribune.com
Matthew Barsrallah
Nerbles
#379 - 2012-01-23 08:41:38 UTC
drake is perfectly balanced. you Press F1 to win...

rather fly something fun than powerful. but that just me
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#380 - 2012-01-23 10:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Earlier I suggested that if the Drake gets nerfed, then so must the Hurricane. Well here's some stats to support it.

First, the aforementioned killboard details show that the Hurricane is 35% more popular than the Drake. OMG! NERF CANE! Next I took a T2 fit whelpcane and compared it to a T2 fit passive tanked Drake, all level 5 skills.

Passive Drake:
Lows:
2x SPRII
2x BCSII

Mids:
2x InvFldII
2x LSEII
1x PSFII
1x 10MN ABII

Highs:
7x HMLII w/CN Scourge

Rigs:
3x Medium CDP

Drones:
5x Warrior II

First thing I noticed was that you cannot fit a MWD on the Drake without both PG and CPU implants, or removing tank. It is afterburner only. Second thing was that it cannot fit anything useful in the utility high.

Whelpcane:
Lows:
3x GyrostabII
2x TEII
1x DCII

Mids:
2x LSEII
1x InvFld II
1x 10MN MWDII

Highs:
6x 425mmACII w/RF EMP
2x MENII

Rigs:
2x Med Anti-EM SR
1x Med Anti-Therm SR

Drones:
5x Warrior II

Everything fits, np. Could even use 1 medium drone in place of a small. 30m3 drone bay and matching bandwidth.

Comparison: Drake/whelpcane
DPS: 449 (kinetic, 375 otherwise)/ 698
EHP: 68,878 / 55,025
Tank: (457 / 81)
Locking Range:75km / 56.25km
Optimal+Falloff: 84.4km / 21.9km
SigRad: 378m / 327m
Base Max Velocity: 175m/s / 206m/s
2x velocity: 350m/s / 412m/s
6x velocity: 1050m/s / 1236m/s

The point isn't so much to have a direct 1v1 comparison. But to demonstrate that they are both capable ships. Both are used for PvP and PvE in fleets and solo. I truly do not understand the logic behind suggesting a Drake nerf and not one for the Hurricane. Not nerfing both at the same time would be blatant favoritism.

I would also like to agree with the person who stated that Drakes can be killed np. I have been on the receiving end of a Dramiel tag-team while under fire from a dual BS belt spawn. It took all of 20 seconds for them to completely annihilate my tank. No, it wasn't a fail tank. Just like any ship, if you catch them at the right time and under the right conditions, they die.

I also want to agree with the observation of all the people that laughed at Drakes saying they're no good for PvP, and are now crying for a nerf.

And I can't say it enough regarding ECM. It has it's counters. I am so damn tired of people crying about it. Every single nerf ECM thread pretty much amounts to "WAAH! I don't want to fit ECCM or use drones or carry FoF missiles or learn to PvP!" Honestly, HTFU or go back to WoW. Or just don't shoot Guristas rats. You choose to shoot them, prepare to get jammed.

However, it occurred to me that an easier counter might be to have a skill that increases your sensor strength. At least this way if you put some SP into it, you gain an advantage. Frankly, I'm surprised there isn't a skill for this already.

I would also like to point out that due to the ECM mechanics, only bonused ECM ships have a reasonable chance of jamming a target. Your aforementioned Drake has a sensor strength of 19. That is more than 5 points higher than the maximum possible jam strength of a Falcon. In the 20 seconds while he is waiting for his missed jammer to cycle again, all you have to do is lock and send your drones after him. The Falcon pilot will leave quite quickly.

Also, I have never been permajammed by rats of any flavor. So... don't know what the issue is. Sure I've been jammed a few cycles in a row. It's damn annoying. But hardly anything to cry about.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY