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[Kyonoke] Contagion Tracking, Containment, Planning

Author
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#561 - 2017-04-13 02:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaret Victorian
Sending me on a voyage trough your threads with vague "it exists" doesn't help with convincing me or other people.
1. I can't keep my eye on everything.
2. I have more important matters to attend. Like a full 12 hour sleep, for starters.

Here is a question though. Why do your eyes see? On a basic level, they just do. For more information you may need to talk to an oculist.

Why does an airborne vaccine work and why is it employed? It just does and because it is fast enough for basic level. For more information you need to talk to an acual virologist.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#562 - 2017-04-13 02:11:37 UTC
Do you apply these standards and requirements to everyone else, yourself included then? Not that it matters if you believe me or not. You made a list of things to do, and it's verifiable that I've demonstrably done so. It'll have to do.
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#563 - 2017-04-13 02:15:21 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Do you apply these standards and requirements to everyone else, yourself included then? Not that it matters if you believe me or not. You made a list of things to do, and it's verifiable that I've demonstrably done so. It'll have to do.

I would consider it professional to provide you at least two sources on points if I ever were to convince you of something.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#564 - 2017-04-13 02:24:34 UTC
Jaret Victorian wrote:

Here is a question though. Why do your eyes see? On a basic level, they just do. For more information you may need to talk to an oculist.


On a basic level, that's not an answer, it's just a precondition for the question. For more information, you could consult anyone with a primary-school education to learn that light bounces off objects which absorb certain wavelengths, and the remaining wavelengths stimulate the rods and cones in your eyes, which trigger an electrochemical receptor in your retina, and your brain uses all of the aggregate stimulus to create an interpretation that you tell yourself you're 'seeing'.

Mother Matar, any ten-year-old in the Republic can tell you that.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#565 - 2017-04-13 02:25:46 UTC
Jaret Victorian wrote:
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Do you apply these standards and requirements to everyone else, yourself included then? Not that it matters if you believe me or not. You made a list of things to do, and it's verifiable that I've demonstrably done so. It'll have to do.

I would consider it professional to provide you at least two sources on points if I ever were to convince you of something.


Except, you know, if you want to convince her of what you'd do to convince her. Cuz you just didn't provide at least two sources demonstrating that pattern of behavior.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#566 - 2017-04-13 02:28:11 UTC
So-- just to note in passing: we do now (or Zainou Biotech does, and has, for many years) have the technology for the basic building block of an upload civilization. That is, we can upload a person to a computer, and have it still function as that person (practically if not legally).

I wonder how hard it really is to simulate a bunch of other human biology, comparatively. Even if it's about the same....

It seems like worries about unpredictability and so on might be a little out of date?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#567 - 2017-04-13 02:50:10 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
So-- just to note in passing: we do now (or Zainou Biotech does, and has, for many years) have the technology for the basic building block of an upload civilization. That is, we can upload a person to a computer, and have it still function as that person (practically if not legally).

I wonder how hard it really is to simulate a bunch of other human biology, comparatively. Even if it's about the same....

It seems like worries about unpredictability and so on might be a little out of date?


I dunno, to simulate the biology, you'd have to be able to simulate all of the environmental variables perfectly, including the pathogen... and if you already understand the pathogen perfectly, well, you've already got the cure, don't you?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#568 - 2017-04-13 03:01:56 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
So-- just to note in passing: we do now (or Zainou Biotech does, and has, for many years) have the technology for the basic building block of an upload civilization. That is, we can upload a person to a computer, and have it still function as that person (practically if not legally).

I wonder how hard it really is to simulate a bunch of other human biology, comparatively. Even if it's about the same....

It seems like worries about unpredictability and so on might be a little out of date?


I dunno, to simulate the biology, you'd have to be able to simulate all of the environmental variables perfectly, including the pathogen... and if you already understand the pathogen perfectly, well, you've already got the cure, don't you?


True. And there are some complexities involved that go fractal fast.

Still ... in terms of just how the cure functions in things like interacting with subjects over the course of generations, it seems like a few good simulations under different conditions would help a lot.

It seems like authorities, even in the State, are moving towards shifting people out of quarantine once treated. You might not trust authorities very much, Arrendis, but this much is definitely true: the Caldari higher-ups were more likely to order everybody vaporized if there was a doubt, and give a firm middle finger to the Inquest, than to risk their families by letting people walk free who shouldn't have been allowed to.

Apparently 0410 has a lot of official confidence.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#569 - 2017-04-13 03:35:10 UTC
The Caldari elites are beholden to shareholders who can be swayed by public opinion. Considering the fanfare surrounding 0410, did you think the Caldari elites will risk hurting the bottom line by advocating mass sterilisation and other extreme measures?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#570 - 2017-04-13 03:38:43 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
The Caldari elites are beholden to shareholders who can be swayed by public opinion. Considering the fanfare surrounding 0410, did you think the Caldari elites will risk hurting the bottom line by advocating mass sterilisation and other extreme measures?


Yes.

They already did. Guess who sponsored the "glass everybody" option, alongside the Amarr, at the final Inquest vote?
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#571 - 2017-04-13 03:43:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
The Caldari elites are beholden to shareholders who can be swayed by public opinion. Considering the fanfare surrounding 0410, did you think the Caldari elites will risk hurting the bottom line by advocating mass sterilisation and other extreme measures?


Yes.

They already did. Guess who sponsored the "glass everybody" option, alongside the Amarr, at the final Inquest vote?


And realise that they got swayed by the voters in the end when they realised that glass everybody is not a popular option.

Otherwise they would have glassed infected sites within State sovereign territories regardless.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#572 - 2017-04-13 03:55:45 UTC
More news.

Apply antidote, remove survivors, burn/vacuum infected places. I´m ok with that.

Quote:
Meanwhile, the Directive Enforcement Department has launched a full investigation into the origins of the Kyonoke Plague. The investigation comes after it was revealed that blood from now deceased Caldari nationalist fugitive Akira Kasaras was used by Poteque Pharmaceuticals, The Servant Sisters of EVE and Eifyr & Co to create an antidote. Speculation has been rife among geneticists and virologists since the revelation of a cure, which apparently consists of a structured bio-speck that acts as a counter for the Kyonoke speck, rendering it inert.

Many experts have commented that this method of rendering an outbreak inert is a common practice in the field of biological weapons deployment, indicating that the Kyonoke Plague could indeed be man made, rather than a naturally occurring disease as was previously thought.


Well well well. We have documents on a weaponization, 2 big pharma groups with a fast and effective antidote, and a dead caldari nationalist being a test tube.

The only ones needing some air time on this mess are the Ammar.

Join Project Transcendence.

Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#573 - 2017-04-13 03:59:30 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
And realise that they got swayed by the voters in the end when they realised that glass everybody is not a popular option.

Otherwise they would have glassed infected sites within State sovereign territories regardless.


They kind of take a little pride in occasionally thumbing their nose at the popular option. The State's a lot of things, Mr. Egivand, and stockholders aren't meaningless.

It's pretty authoritarian in the end, though. And the opinions of foreigners, by and large, are less than nothing there.

That option would probably have been taken if we hadn't been able to get Agent 0410 assembled. It looks like research on it is proceeding fast; I definitely would have preferred to receive it by aerosol.

(I really wonder how it works. Then again, I also really wonder how Insorum works.)
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#574 - 2017-04-13 04:07:29 UTC
These are one of those times where even State citizens share the same opinion as outsiders. I remember citizens are also counted as stakeholders in the State?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#575 - 2017-04-13 04:13:18 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
These are one of those times where even State citizens share the same opinion as outsiders. I remember citizens are also counted as stakeholders in the State?


Often, yes. As a rule, minor ones.

Very minor ones.

Their real power comes from their numbers and ability to cause a total breakdown of the system if they revolt. They're usually reluctant to do so, though.

As I told Arrendis, trusting authority to lead wisely and well is something Caldari are trained from birth to do. It's a closed, strongly hierarchical (if meritocratic, in principle) society, and they literally fought an eight-decade war to keep it that way.
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#576 - 2017-04-13 04:16:20 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
These are one of those times where even State citizens share the same opinion as outsiders. I remember citizens are also counted as stakeholders in the State?


We´re not cold blooded machines, of course we wanted to save as many as we could.

But if no antidote had been found, the pragmatic, efficient way would be to secure all locations.

With fire.
Lot´s of it.

We´re abandoning and destroying an entire city because it will be less expensive to build a new one rather than fixing the current. It´s more efficient this way.

So would be killing a few million infected/soon to be infected people in order to save trillions from being exposed to it.

Cmon, it´s not that hard to understand the necessity of this course of action IF we didn´t get the antidote in time.

Join Project Transcendence.

Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#577 - 2017-04-13 05:24:52 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:

We´re abandoning and destroying an entire city because it will be less expensive to build a new one rather than fixing the current. It´s more efficient this way.


You're abandoning and destroying an entire city because short of exposure to hard vacuum, there's no known was to get rid of this stuff once it has saturated an area that wouldn't destroy the city. And since last I checked, the city's under an atmosphere, hydrogen detonations aren't exactly efficient. Hello, nuclear fallout!

Kinda wonder why they don't erect a bombardment shield around the city with the polarity reversed, and annihilate the place with a kilogram of antimatter. We all know the Caldari Navy's got that, and a gamma burst is over and done in an instant. Superheated plasma that used to be the air in the blast radius loaded up with radioactive isotopes from the neutron emissions of the fusion detonations (plural!) takes a lot longer to clean up. More expensive than 'ok, folks, it's all done', too. Gotta move equipment, monitor surrounding populations for radiation sickness, deal with wildlife and livestock with symptoms... and no, the shielding idea doesn't work there, because while both scenarios have that formerly-air superheated plasma, once it cools down, the antimatter version isn't radioactive. The nuclear one is.

Ah well. Maybe someone in the Caldari military will think of that one before they start setting of the nukes.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#578 - 2017-04-13 05:44:27 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
The Caldari elites are beholden to shareholders who can be swayed by public opinion. Considering the fanfare surrounding 0410, did you think the Caldari elites will risk hurting the bottom line by advocating mass sterilisation and other extreme measures?


I'm a KK shareholder and if there were an easy way to utterly sterilize the hot zone without risking simply spreading it further, I would need to be WAY more convinced about this cure than I am currently to take that option off the table.

We should be compassionate, sure, but we should be compassionate globally.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#579 - 2017-04-13 06:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
These are one of those times where even State citizens share the same opinion as outsiders. I remember citizens are also counted as stakeholders in the State?


Often, yes. As a rule, minor ones.

Very minor ones.

Their real power comes from their numbers and ability to cause a total breakdown of the system if they revolt. They're usually reluctant to do so, though.

As I told Arrendis, trusting authority to lead wisely and well is something Caldari are trained from birth to do. It's a closed, strongly hierarchical (if meritocratic, in principle) society, and they literally fought an eight-decade war to keep it that way.


As you said, minor ones with great numbers. This makes their opinions actually worth considering especially when the number of citizens in favour of a dubious treatment has reached critical mass.

Also, no using 'because it's our way' as an excuse to keep acting and thinking the way you did, as soon as you identify the issue with it. Fix it!

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

morion
Lighting Build
#580 - 2017-04-13 07:23:07 UTC
so your all experts