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How many more players must we lose to bullying

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Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#921 - 2017-04-04 18:35:58 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
I've had an idea of how to reward players in a safe space without introducing isk that would affect the economy, but I will have to work out details. The essence of it is that for the types of people who want to be left alone, they feel rewarded by building up their own stuff. I can picture groups mining in a safe space for minerals to build some ships for themselves, feeling rewarded by the mere achievement simple as it may seem to you. Using those ships to shoot npcs they can loot and salvage for minerals to build ammo and mods etc. Sisi doesn't really work because it's you can shortcut the work to obtain anything thereby removing the reward, and because it's hidden behind options compared to the main eve experience.

As for limited rewards not motivating people to move, highsec income is not exactly limited.



INB4 Minecraft in space
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#922 - 2017-04-04 18:37:31 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
.


INB4 Minecraft in space


If we are honest, there ain't many mining games out there.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#923 - 2017-04-04 18:37:49 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
No, seriously, lets consider this. Suppose I could move my LS invention operations to your HS+ and get the same rewards without the same risk. I'd do it in a mother-godamn-****ing hear beat. I'd be in there so fast your head would spin. You'd be like, Teckos for a guy your age you can stay up goddamn late and move goddamn fast...stay away from my wife! I'd be a Goddamned idiot not to make such a move. And assuming I'm not alone in my desire for high rewards and low risk I'd not be alone. What would happen to T2 prices? They drop like a rock in water. In short, HS+ with good rewards for the risk would be unbalancing. If you want HS+ with no belts, no ability to anchor citadels or POS, no PI worth doing, missions that suck ass, and so forth...well okay. But why stay in such ****** space? So you don't get ganked every 16th week? Okay...but when you quite can I have your stuff?


You're making assumptions that you would be able to move lowsec invention there and get the same rewards without the risk. Drug labs are only anchorable in low or null, why not t2 research as well. Crashing the market is exactly what I would want to avoid because surprisingly to you, I do want this to remain a game of player interaction, I'd just like to be able to opt out for a while and still be able to log in and chat to people. That's why I have always said I don't want to 'ruin the game', but it's impossible for you all to see what I'm saying as anything else.

Folk have suggested Sisi, well being able to spawn in items cheapens the entire experience. Isn't everything on the test server basically free?

This will be one of the last posts from me here though, since you guys are right about one thing. This discussion has been had many times between old regulars and countless 'losers' who don't understand, or more realistically don't agree with how eve is. I thought I might point out to you all, whether CCP is paying any attention or not, that this will only continue forever, until eve does conform. Because we are the borg, and you will be assimilated.


See, you are already nerfing your safe space. How many people play on Sisi? Not that many. Why? Because any resources you gather there are useless on Tranquility. How many people will be in your HS+? Maybe a couple more people than on Sisi? Why bother at all? Why waste the Dev time?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#924 - 2017-04-04 18:40:52 UTC
WTB: a TL;DR
of this thread,
long ~50pages and ~1k replies,
becouse... yea...
seems a very important discussion Cool

tyvm
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#925 - 2017-04-04 18:44:26 UTC
Soel Reit wrote:
WTB: a TL;DR
of this thread,
long ~50pages and ~1k replies,
becouse... yea...
seems a very important discussion Cool

tyvm

Here's your TLDR.

People spouting personal agendas and claiming they speak for everyone else.

That'll be 150M ISKies for my service.

Mr Epeen Cool
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#926 - 2017-04-04 18:47:38 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Soel Reit wrote:
WTB: a TL;DR
of this thread,
long ~50pages and ~1k replies,
becouse... yea...
seems a very important discussion Cool

tyvm

Here's your TLDR.

People spouting personal agendas and claiming they speak for everyone else.

That'll be 150M ISKies for my service.

Mr Epeen Cool


Damn right we have to speak, those 35000 other players just
sits there and plays the game.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#927 - 2017-04-04 19:01:59 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Soel Reit wrote:
WTB: a TL;DR
of this thread,
long ~50pages and ~1k replies,
becouse... yea...
seems a very important discussion Cool

tyvm

Here's your TLDR.

People spouting personal agendas and claiming they speak for everyone else.

That'll be 150M ISKies for my service.

Mr Epeen Cool


150M wait.................................... i'm space poor....
do you accept rates or 20isk/month?
gonna repay my debt i swear!
Soon™
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#928 - 2017-04-04 19:02:29 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


I was also waiting for this.

For 10 years I've hard the "moar players" crowd say this. They think that more players mean more money for CCP and that means a better game for them. At it's base it's a selfish desire. But it gets worse because it's also wrong.

I've tried to explain to folks over the years why this is dumb. Historically CCP has used EVe Online revenues to fund other games.. The idea that more people giving CCP more money translates to a better EVE is as foolish as saying "man, if I buy TWO Big Macs, and get all my friends to buy Big Macs, McDonalds will reward us by making better food"!!!!!

Sorry, all you would be accomplishing is raising everyone's cholesterol counts and bring everyone closer to cardiac arrest while lining the pockets of some McDonald's shareholder...


Via diabetes...all those carbohydrates....wait wrong issue.

This part right here:

Quote:
I've tried to explain to folks over the years why this is dumb. Historically CCP has used EVe Online revenues to fund other games.. The idea that more people giving CCP more money translates to a better EVE is as foolish as saying "man, if I buy TWO Big Macs, and get all my friends to buy Big Macs, McDonalds will reward us by making better food"!!!!!


Can't be said often enough. Once CCP gets the money, they don't have to do what people think they should or could with that money.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#929 - 2017-04-04 19:04:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
It's one small area for gods sake, limited heavily, with the deeper parts of space on the horizon if you decide to venture out that way.



And it's wrong. And some of you types think it's a PVE thing.



Well, we shot down a similar PVP idea too. If you want to pvp, do it in the open where people can get at you. Or go to SiSi.

Your idea is bad because it wouldn't work the way you want, you provide ANY safe haven where people can make ANY small amount of isk, or other rewards, and richer, older players WILL find a way to exploit it.

And it would be bad for new players, because coddling them then throwing them into the lions den that E=is EVE is dumb. for the same reaons that tutorials and 'better NPE' didn't help new players stay. It dampens creativity and creativity is vital to EVE.


And what is wrong with just living in 1.0 systems? Those are very safe. Yes, their rewards tend to suck...but hey, that is what you are basically asking for. A very safe part of the game that has crap rewards.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#930 - 2017-04-04 19:06:52 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
I've had an idea of how to reward players in a safe space without introducing isk that would affect the economy, but I will have to work out details. The essence of it is that for the types of people who want to be left alone, they feel rewarded by building up their own stuff. I can picture groups mining in a safe space for minerals to build some ships for themselves, feeling rewarded by the mere achievement simple as it may seem to you. Using those ships to shoot npcs they can loot and salvage for minerals to build ammo and mods etc. Sisi doesn't really work because it's you can shortcut the work to obtain anything thereby removing the reward, and because it's hidden behind options compared to the main eve experience.

As for limited rewards not motivating people to move, highsec income is not exactly limited.



For a more serious response, this already exists. Join together with a few friends and rent a system deep in null sec. All you need is a couple of mining ships to gather minerals for t1 stuff, a blockade runner / deep space transport to haul moon goo from Jita thru wormholes to your system (or a JF pilot if you have the isk/SP), and a couple of pirate / T1 BS BPCs to build your ratting ships.

You'll get left alone mostly since most people hunting drone lands are after 10/10 runners, rorqs, and supers.

The only thing missing from your fantasy is the interference from other people, which makes the whole endeavor that much more rewarding when you pull it off.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#931 - 2017-04-04 19:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Since everybody kinda like RL.

In RL every interaction between individuals doesnt
end up with someone losing everything they have
and waking up naked at home.

It sure would be nice to have an option to cowardly
run away from a fight (like IRL).



Nor does it in EVE. The other day I was interacting with a buddy in game. At the end of the month we each hope to have alot more ISK. I was also interacting with a bunch other guys on this thing called a Strat Op. We worked together and killed a tower.

I also bought some stuff off the market. That made me and the person I bought from strictly better off.

The game has both cooperative and non-cooperative interaction.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#932 - 2017-04-04 19:10:03 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Can't be said often enough. Once CCP gets the money, they don't have to do what people think they should or could with that money.


And yet I've seen people rationalize it that way for years. I sometimes think it's a combination honest belief (they think more people will mean a better experience for them) and the idea that if they can convince others they will get something out of it that will accept the idea. You and I know it's a foolish belief but you can't convince people who hold it that it is, no matter how many times it's proven by real events.

I just had a funny thought. The people who say the game needs more players and CCP should do things to get those new players to stay always make the assumption that those players will be like them. Wouldn't it be funny as hell if CCP did what they want but the flood of new players turned out to be the type of people who would join CODE or some high sec war dec group Twisted
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#933 - 2017-04-04 19:10:50 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
Trasch Taranogas wrote:

It sure would be nice to have an option to cowardly
run away from a fight (like IRL).


Have you tried warping away? works for me.


Yep.Too slow. Fight is usually over after I try find my
buttons on the keyboard.


I see more practice and more lost ships in your future....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#934 - 2017-04-04 19:15:51 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

I just had a funny thought. The people who say the game needs more players and CCP should do things to get those new players to stay always make the assumption that those players will be like them. Wouldn't it be funny as hell if CCP did what they want but the flood of new players turned out to be the type of people who would join CODE or some high sec war dec group Twisted
Personally I think EVE needs more players. Lots more.

Do I give a **** what they do once they're here? Not at all. As long as they're here doing it.

Mr Epeen Cool
Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#935 - 2017-04-04 19:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Trasch Taranogas
Mr Epeen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

I just had a funny thought. The people who say the game needs more players and CCP should do things to get those new players to stay always make the assumption that those players will be like them. Wouldn't it be funny as hell if CCP did what they want but the flood of new players turned out to be the type of people who would join CODE or some high sec war dec group Twisted
Personally I think EVE needs more players. Lots more.

Do I give a **** what they do once they're here? Not at all. As long as they're here doing it.

Mr Epeen Cool


Amen.

True. Null is awfully empty.

So we should stop the bullying?
Maybe its up to CCP to stop bullying?

Is it bullying or is Eve forever a niche game?

Edit: I meant You. Im not a bully.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#936 - 2017-04-04 19:26:48 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Can't be said often enough. Once CCP gets the money, they don't have to do what people think they should or could with that money.


And yet I've seen people rationalize it that way for years. I sometimes think it's a combination honest belief (they think more people will mean a better experience for them) and the idea that if they can convince others they will get something out of it that will accept the idea. You and I know it's a foolish belief but you can't convince people who hold it that it is, no matter how many times it's proven by real events.

I just had a funny thought. The people who say the game needs more players and CCP should do things to get those new players to stay always make the assumption that those players will be like them. Wouldn't it be funny as hell if CCP did what they want but the flood of new players turned out to be the type of people who would join CODE or some high sec war dec group Twisted


It is simplistic thinking. So-and-so is not doing X, well we'll just pass a law or make them do X. But people don't like that so they try to find ways around it, or they simply can't because the issue X is much, much more complicated.

Example: Tech firms don't hire enough women. Well...why not? Is it gender bias? Maybe. That is a possible hypothesis. Or is it because it isn't a field women go into. Whom should we force? Women? Go out there and train for tech jobs...and we don't care if you don't want too. Or is it the firms: you are qualified and have a good resume, but that vagina thing...nope, can't have that in the office, sorry bye. Could it be both? Could it be related to parents and how they treat their children differently? Every parent I have ever met always called their daughters "princess". Which is nice I suppose, but what if we forced all parents to not use that term and instead use one from the following list: engineer, astronaut, physicist, or mathematician. Would that lead to change? It is most likely a complicated process with feedback loops and stuff going on that hasn't even been mentioned, and yet...well it is simply and easy to fix. Just force somebody to do something.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#937 - 2017-04-04 19:28:01 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:

Absolutely wrong again, at least something is constant here. You talk about players, while I try to tell you that it has nothing to do with the players but with the actual game mechanics centered around NPCs and resources. The risk part has to do with NPC defending your ship while the reward has to do with loot they drop and resources in the belts, planets etc.

Those things are static and that is why it is possible to balance it, that is where the term risk/reward is used.

Player interaction and emergent gameplay on the other hand is not static and that is why you can't use the term risk/reward there. It is in fact self-balancing since players will eventually adapt.

Still not clear?


You are arguing with yourself.

It is adorable how you dance around if you are out of arguments.

Evil RatKid
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#938 - 2017-04-04 19:30:29 UTC
Trasch Taranogas wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

I just had a funny thought. The people who say the game needs more players and CCP should do things to get those new players to stay always make the assumption that those players will be like them. Wouldn't it be funny as hell if CCP did what they want but the flood of new players turned out to be the type of people who would join CODE or some high sec war dec group Twisted
Personally I think EVE needs more players. Lots more.

Do I give a **** what they do once they're here? Not at all. As long as they're here doing it.

Mr Epeen Cool


Amen.

True. Null is awfully empty.

So we should stop the bullying?
Maybe its up to CCP to stop bullying?

Is it bullying or is Eve forever a niche game?

Edit: I meant You. Im not a bully.


FFS it isn't bullying. That is already prohibited by the EULA.

Blowing you up in a gate camp is not bullying. It is playing the game. Don't want to be blown up in a gate camp, don't go to NS or LS. Don't want to be ganked in HS? Don't be imprudent.

Take some fecking responsibility please.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#939 - 2017-04-04 19:36:51 UTC
Soel Reit wrote:
WTB: a TL;DR

The dish of the day is carebear tears of broken dreams about mining and building in perfect security, followed by a dessert of impotent AG rage about than one nerf which shattered their world.

Yes, it's that thread again.

Evil RatKid
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#940 - 2017-04-04 19:39:39 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


FFS it isn't bullying. That is already prohibited by the EULA.

Blowing you up in a gate camp is not bullying. It is playing the game. Don't want to be blown up in a gate camp, don't go to NS or LS. Don't want to be ganked in HS? Don't be imprudent.

Take some fecking responsibility please.


Digging down, getting to the real crux of the matter, it seems to a lot of these people that "bullying" is any negative interaction (negative from their point of view). Some people have always been this over-sensitive, it just appears to me to be much more accepted way to think now. And it can even be seen in this game, which is the LAST place one would expect given that people should know what EVE is before downloading the client for the 1st time.

I think of these people screeching and complaining here and I get the vision of a dude wanting to join a 1 percenter biker gang and asking it's head honcho if he will have access to a sensitivity coach if he does decide to become a prospect...