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Alphas and F2P Have Failed

Author
Honzas Krutas
We Break Things
Novus Ordo.
#601 - 2017-04-02 12:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Honzas Krutas
Rosie Hazelcrush wrote:
seriously, reset everything. delete all skillpoints, all chars, all corps, all alliances, all blueprints, all citadels, every single isk and asset in the game. respawn all stations, belts (they should be random anyway), moons, agents, everything. re-link the stargates to create a new universe. open servers. boom. eve's persistence has reached a problematic status.

Hello mate.


I like this. I was playing diablo2 at battle.net for a long time and there was esxactly this mechanic and server was resetted every year.

However, there will always be players who like what they have and will quit if you take it away from them. While its true a fresh start would give many players a new motivation to return to eve or just to play further, it could also drive the other half player away as they will not be interested and willing to start over.

I feel like this has no chance of being ever implemented, but there is no reason not to discuss it so to make this suggestion viable, EVE online would have to borrow a second mechanics from diablo and thats a ladder and non-ladder. In diablo, characters a nd your assests were actually not deleted at the end of the season, but instead moved into so called non-ladder. You could still play those characters but there were limits. Only ladder characters could find/do many items and special activities which added motivations to start a ladder character each season as the items that could be found only in ladder were extremely valuable on non-ladder. A little problem might be that in diablo ladder and nonladder characters were separated from each other. I believe that its not possible to keep them in single server and there is a question then how many players would be interested in playing the second server... still something to think about.

Modding is fun. Please add more customization into EVE!

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#602 - 2017-04-02 16:17:44 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:

If this was to happen there would be no big upheaval like you suggest, the former owners would simply have agreed diplomatic agreements that they move back in and re-establish and the status quo would be preserved, all you're suggesting is CCP making the game more irritating for those groups which generate publicity and headlines. You'd also be dooming the game to guaranteed lull periods - who is going to commit to a war over the resources in the region next door knowing it would all be reset next month? For that matter, who is going to bother logging in to mine or rat or adjust market orders knowing that everything is going to be deleted and zeroed soon anyway?


That is a very good point - people would scale their expectations with the cycles and invest a lot less in long term planning, etc. which means they are less invested in the game and more likely to be pulled more and more away from it as other things take up their interest.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#603 - 2017-04-02 18:12:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Rosie Hazelcrush wrote:
Zarek Kree wrote:


...snip...

If you want to be reset to zero, then start a new character. Nobody is stopping you. Better yet, go play a new game and make way for the new breed coming up. But blowing up the entire server because a few bittervets are bored is a breathtakingly stupid idea. My apologies for being offensive, but I don't know how else to say it.


no offense taken. but guess what, i did that in december'16. 2 fresh chars + kept this old one. i'm not bored, not at all, i'm not bitter, and i certainly don't consider myself beeing a "vet". i am still enjoying the game.
you are missing the point though. my idea, and it was merely for the sake of discussion, was to give everyone the same base for a fresh start. single players resetting their chars is far from that.

why did i love eve so much back in '09? because i went the entire hard way from zero to something. i remember when i was counting single isk to be able to afford my first mining barge. when my hands were shaking when nearly losing my first battleship. how proud i was when i finished researching a certain set of BPOs to max. when we set up our first POS and switched on the shiny forcefield. when we calculated cost vs reward when doing invention runs. this entire experience, along with the harsh learning curve - as mentioned multiple times in this thread - made eve one of the most impressive games i ever played.

i am not against persistence, it is one of eve greatest features. i just think that it may have reached a level beyond balancing.


That is all fine and good if you want to do that. I don't want too. So stop forcing, from the top down, something I don't want on me. And by the top down I mean by CCP doing something for your benefit and not mine. And please do not confuse this with CCP's periodic attempts to fix things, balance things, etc. And I do not mind you, as a player, trying to force something on me. At least there I have a chance and some options. But with CCP there is no chance, no options.

Oh, and all those experiences....my guess is you won't get them again, IMO. You have already done them. Brand new characters starting from zero won't bring that back because you are still the same person. You want that feeling again, go and do something you have not yet done in game. Try taking a character with starting ISK to a billion ISK via station trading. Try solo hunting in NS with a cloaked ship. Build your first super (either for you or for sale). Etc.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#604 - 2017-04-02 20:04:14 UTC
All glory be to James 315. This thread of tears over the New Order is still going.

#mostrelevantallianceinthegame

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com

Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#605 - 2017-04-02 20:30:38 UTC
Galaxy Pig wrote:
All glory be to James 315. This thread of tears over the New Order is still going.

#mostrelevantallianceinthegame



QuestionQuestionQuestionQuestion I don't think you actually read the thread. How is it that you think this thread is about "tears over the New Order"?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#606 - 2017-04-02 20:59:15 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
You'd also be dooming the game to guaranteed lull periods - who is going to commit to a war over the resources in the region next door knowing it would all be reset next month? For that matter, who is going to bother logging in to mine or rat or adjust market orders knowing that everything is going to be deleted and zeroed soon anyway?


It might not even cycle. Right now why is it bad when somebody wants to come and kick over your personal sand castle in game? Because you had some sense of permanence. And why did you have this? Because you trust CCP to not come along and kick it over and where you have no chance of avoiding this. If at some random or even pre-determined date you know that all your work is going to be for literally nothing....why bother?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Trasch Taranogas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#607 - 2017-04-02 21:42:25 UTC
What is up with CODE?

Is it a charade or have they truly drank too much Kool-Aid?

They seem almost as convinced as those Apple guys.

If you always stay ready you don't have to get ready.

Sarker Calidan
Doomheim
#608 - 2017-04-02 22:00:33 UTC
Honestly I think Alphas are far to restricted to ever use as a primary character. But it can be a good place to start for a new player still unsure if they was to subscribe.

However, by and large Alpha's have become a tool for many people in the Game, either as cheep scouts and spys, or as skill point farmers. Not that I have anything against scouts and spys, but creating dozens of accounts to farm skill points is a bit of an exploit I think and probably something that should be addressed.
Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#609 - 2017-04-02 22:11:58 UTC
Sarker Calidan wrote:
However, by and large Alpha's have become a tool for many people in the Game, either as cheep scouts and spys, or as skill point farmers. Not that I have anything against scouts and spys, but creating dozens of accounts to farm skill points is a bit of an exploit I think and probably something that should be addressed.

You can't extract skills from alpha set so there is no way to farm SP with alpha character.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#610 - 2017-04-02 22:28:37 UTC
Vokan Narkar wrote:
Sarker Calidan wrote:
However, by and large Alpha's have become a tool for many people in the Game, either as cheep scouts and spys, or as skill point farmers. Not that I have anything against scouts and spys, but creating dozens of accounts to farm skill points is a bit of an exploit I think and probably something that should be addressed.

You can't extract skills from alpha set so there is no way to farm SP with alpha character.


And with the halved training time, restriction to +3 implants and 24 hour skill queue. I don't know anyone who actually uses them for that. Even if it does happen it is by far the minority case.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#611 - 2017-04-02 22:35:36 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
Vokan Narkar wrote:
Sarker Calidan wrote:
However, by and large Alpha's have become a tool for many people in the Game, either as cheep scouts and spys, or as skill point farmers. Not that I have anything against scouts and spys, but creating dozens of accounts to farm skill points is a bit of an exploit I think and probably something that should be addressed.

You can't extract skills from alpha set so there is no way to farm SP with alpha character.


And with the halved training time, restriction to +3 implants and 24 hour skill queue. I don't know anyone who actually uses them for that. Even if it does happen it is by far the minority case.


One could use them to set up a SP farm I suppose (train them as far as you can while F2P then use PLEX to make them Omega and then keep going), but competition in the injector market has made it so you might earn some profits, but not alot. And to make alot who'd want to sit there siphoning out SP from 50 characters...it would start to become a real job...in which case get a real job and just pay your sub on a yearly basis, have more free time, and log in for fun not work.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Vokan Narkar
Doomheim
#612 - 2017-04-02 23:09:49 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
One could use them to set up a SP farm I suppose (train them as far as you can while F2P then use PLEX to make them Omega and then keep going), but competition in the injector market has made it so you might earn some profits, but not alot. And to make alot who'd want to sit there siphoning out SP from 50 characters...it would start to become a real job...in which case get a real job and just pay your sub on a yearly basis, have more free time, and log in for fun not work.

but even if you train full alpha set, even after you convert to omega you won't be allowed to extract any skill that can be trained on alpha. Also to fully train alpha set takes around 4 months.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#613 - 2017-04-03 02:19:34 UTC
Vokan Narkar wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
One could use them to set up a SP farm I suppose (train them as far as you can while F2P then use PLEX to make them Omega and then keep going), but competition in the injector market has made it so you might earn some profits, but not alot. And to make alot who'd want to sit there siphoning out SP from 50 characters...it would start to become a real job...in which case get a real job and just pay your sub on a yearly basis, have more free time, and log in for fun not work.

but even if you train full alpha set, even after you convert to omega you won't be allowed to extract any skill that can be trained on alpha. Also to fully train alpha set takes around 4 months.


The point is you'd train them up to the point where you just get to that point, and do it for "free". Then you'd change them over to Omegas. Of course it isn't really "free" in that there is an opportunity cost involved as well.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#614 - 2017-04-03 02:30:31 UTC
Vokan Narkar wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
One could use them to set up a SP farm I suppose (train them as far as you can while F2P then use PLEX to make them Omega and then keep going), but competition in the injector market has made it so you might earn some profits, but not alot. And to make alot who'd want to sit there siphoning out SP from 50 characters...it would start to become a real job...in which case get a real job and just pay your sub on a yearly basis, have more free time, and log in for fun not work.

but even if you train full alpha set, even after you convert to omega you won't be allowed to extract any skill that can be trained on alpha. Also to fully train alpha set takes around 4 months.


That part isn't true. You can extract alpha skills as an omega. But it's still 4-5 months of constant daily skill swapping. Just for a very small increase in "free" efficiency.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#615 - 2017-04-03 05:51:46 UTC
My little 0.2 cents which everyone will disagree, one person said it right, running out of adventures, what low sec, null and WH dwellers don't get is that more PVE'ers would love to take on bigger chances but on their terms, that being PVE.


It is impossible, the moment someone ventures out into those areas they are hunted down with such enthusiasm that their adventures get cut short by blood thirsty players, now I understand that those are PVP areas, I get it, but newer players won't, they will just know that they will just get beat by the more experienced and this is eve, however there are newer games of the space genre out and coming out and many of them support PVE and allow the user to have some control over how they wish to play the game, eve hardcore players can't seem to wrap this around their heads, it's a new age of gaming, like it or not PVE must be allowed to be otherwise it just moves people to other games that will cater to the PVE experience.


This is not to say PVP is bad but when you have such a high restriction on freedom of movement by non-PVP players this doesn't do anything but make people move on, the hatered of non-PVP players has got to cool down, every since I've been in eve hatered of miners has been the biggest thing forever, then high sec dwellers, no reason other then "they are ruining the game" when in fact this game has chugged along with those players and destroying their game play is destroying your own as people move off to earn their internet credits elsewhere.


If you PVP players want to truly save this game then frankly you need to lay off the hatred, I don't get how some of you have such hostile feelings for someone minding their own business chewing a rock, or hi-secing it up, so what, if they are paying good for me because the lights will stay on at CCP, yes we need adventures, we need puzzles, we need storylines, without them this game stagnates because there is no adventures only death waiting for anybody venturing out into the lower realms by the hands of expert players with omni powers, anyway I'm out Big smile
Azalyn Akiga
Doomheim
#616 - 2017-04-03 08:21:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Azalyn Akiga
Piugattuk wrote:
My little 0.2 cents which everyone will disagree, one person said it right, running out of adventures, what low sec, null and WH dwellers don't get is that more PVE'ers would love to take on bigger chances but on their terms, that being PVE.


It is impossible, the moment someone ventures out into those areas they are hunted down with such enthusiasm that their adventures get cut short by blood thirsty players, now I understand that those are PVP areas, I get it, but newer players won't, they will just know that they will just get beat by the more experienced and this is eve, however there are newer games of the space genre out and coming out and many of them support PVE and allow the user to have some control over how they wish to play the game, eve hardcore players can't seem to wrap this around their heads, it's a new age of gaming, like it or not PVE must be allowed to be otherwise it just moves people to other games that will cater to the PVE experience.


This is not to say PVP is bad but when you have such a high restriction on freedom of movement by non-PVP players this doesn't do anything but make people move on, the hatered of non-PVP players has got to cool down, every since I've been in eve hatered of miners has been the biggest thing forever, then high sec dwellers, no reason other then "they are ruining the game" when in fact this game has chugged along with those players and destroying their game play is destroying your own as people move off to earn their internet credits elsewhere.


If you PVP players want to truly save this game then frankly you need to lay off the hatred, I don't get how some of you have such hostile feelings for someone minding their own business chewing a rock, or hi-secing it up, so what, if they are paying good for me because the lights will stay on at CCP, yes we need adventures, we need puzzles, we need storylines, without them this game stagnates because there is no adventures only death waiting for anybody venturing out into the lower realms by the hands of expert players with omni powers, anyway I'm out Big smile



You are asking pvpers to stop their hatred, it´s like asking a rely depressed person to just be happy it will never happen.

What most eve players think, move everything to null remove high sec all together. And some eve players remove pve,mining and everything that is not pvp.


Eve online will always be a niche game that is for only a few type of people.

people with allot of patience
people with ADD
and some few pvper´s


Heck even the pvp in eve is niche cuz majority of people who love pvp will play Overwatch or some MOBA game or Battlefilde 1 because it´s just jump in do pvp no bullshit no slow as skill training to play the next class no spending several minutes to hours to get a fight.


I like eve but this game is for very few people and we have to live with it. Eve will proboly not be around 2019-2020 if CCP don´t make enough cash to not fold. This is why you need a bunch of games out on the market not just a mmos ,2 phone game an a VR game that costs more to play than it´s worth I mean im not paying 500 dollar for a VR headset to play like 2-4 games they should have made Valkyrie for both VR and non VR and I bet your ass the game would sell even more.


We have live with it eve will die but I commend it for being alive for so long I seen mmos with 500k players any given time of the day die after 1-3 years. Majority of people I seen online the past 7 years I played is 30-35k any given time of the day.

But yeah people in eve will always dislike the way you play I don´t know why maybe they have such a ****** life they must waste there time to bother on how other play the game and hate on you because you don´t play the game the way they do.
Yebo Lakatosh
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#617 - 2017-04-03 11:20:02 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
the hatered of non-PVP players has got to cool down, every since I've been in eve hatered of miners has been the biggest thing forever
I feel I have to reflect on that, as I sense a dark misconception. I, as a player am glad that you play the same awesme game I play. Nothing you can do ingame will change that.

But when you mine, you generate money and other resources. And the money and resources you generate devaules whatever me and my allies can make, as we are all competing on the same market. Also while I love to think that miners only ever mine to have better mining equipment to mine even more with, we always have to suspect that you have a PvPer deep down inside you, and whatever you earn will be eventually transformed into war supplies that aid my enemies. You are not my enemy you say? Well, the fact that you are not in the same Coalition as I am says otherwise.

So yeah, I hate miners. But I love you for playing here. Hope you'll endure the hardships you'll face, and that you will gather enough experience to generate content (other than being a juicy target while printing ISK).

Piugattuk wrote:
what low sec, null and WH dwellers don't get is that more PVE'ers would love to take on bigger chances but on their terms, that being PVE.
Sure we get it, and we have a solution: recruitment. Become one of the locals, who invest a lot of effort into making -their- home safe for -their- people. But if you don't, don't blame them for securing their space and their resources, even if it involves hunting you down if you trespass and steal.

Elite F1 pilot since YC119, incarnate of honor, integrity and tidi.

Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#618 - 2017-04-03 11:48:13 UTC
Soel Reit wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The usual suspects will be along shortly to proclaim that EVE is dying and that the only way to save it is to cater to their very specific and very selfish demands (which they will unsuccessfully try to cloak in standard "think of the Children" language).

EVE has as a point of fact been dying for years - it's just now accelerating past the point of no return. There are far too many players in high-sec, so a kick (rather than nudge) is desperately needed. This only works if low-sec folks have a chance to stand on their own, though - so supers need to go.


idk about that.
Many solutions are available to someone that really want stand up to power blocks.

For example starting in some NPC null space, or rent some space to let your corp grow up.
Low Sec is not the place people that get out from HS should go. Specially miners and farmers.
Null sec is way more vast and safer from that point of view.

just becouse people have titans and supers doesn't mean you have no chance.
just play around them and wait for you chance.
(i.e. test and co2 moved way down on the map just becouse atm they are outnumbered with supers and titans. Can't wait to see what will happen when they will have enough capital numbers to stand up against goons, NC and PL. Gotta be Gud)

they have the advantage but it's an advantage that is closing imo.


No i think the main problem this game has is that the economy has no ceiling. You can mine infinite materials, infinite ships infinite modules. There's no economic limiting factors driving conflict (like USA aggression in the middle east) because everything is essentially available whereever you are.
Gregorius Goldstein
Queens of the Drone Age
#619 - 2017-04-03 11:58:25 UTC
Over 40k players logged in on Saturday and Sunday again, I am sure CCP does not mind this kind of "fail".
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#620 - 2017-04-03 13:22:27 UTC
Honzas Krutas wrote:
Rosie Hazelcrush wrote:
seriously, reset everything. delete all skillpoints, all chars, all corps, all alliances, all blueprints, all citadels, every single isk and asset in the game. respawn all stations, belts (they should be random anyway), moons, agents, everything. re-link the stargates to create a new universe. open servers. boom. eve's persistence has reached a problematic status.

Hello mate.


I like this. I was playing diablo2 at battle.net for a long time and there was esxactly this mechanic and server was resetted every year.

However, there will always be players who like what they have and will quit if you take it away from them. While its true a fresh start would give many players a new motivation to return to eve or just to play further, it could also drive the other half player away as they will not be interested and willing to start over.

I feel like this has no chance of being ever implemented, but there is no reason not to discuss it so to make this suggestion viable, EVE online would have to borrow a second mechanics from diablo and thats a ladder and non-ladder. In diablo, characters a nd your assests were actually not deleted at the end of the season, but instead moved into so called non-ladder. You could still play those characters but there were limits. Only ladder characters could find/do many items and special activities which added motivations to start a ladder character each season as the items that could be found only in ladder were extremely valuable on non-ladder. A little problem might be that in diablo ladder and nonladder characters were separated from each other. I believe that its not possible to keep them in single server and there is a question then how many players would be interested in playing the second server... still something to think about.


I think a way to get both is to create another Sever.

Right now eve has two... Tranquility and Serenity.

So... imagine if they announced they were creating a new server... and everyone had to start from scratch. Some would stay on their current server. Some would move over. Some would play both. New players would have a universe to start in where they are not 15 years behind.

Each server would have smaller numbers individually... but the total would be higher. Not sure if that would be what they'd want or not.