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How many more players must we lose to bullying

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#461 - 2017-04-01 14:53:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. It's slow death.


Stats don't back that statement up.

EVE saw nothing but growth until 2013. What happened in 2013? CCP decided to nerf the difficulty and increased safety by nerfing pvp.


And this is the part they cannot acknowledge, because if they did it would kill their arguments. Their whole view of themselves is based on being the 'good guys' opposed to the 'bad guys who are killing the game'.

Having to realize that they are, in fact the bad guys killing the game by advocating coddling and weakness that at the end of the day is boring as hell (The game only started to decline when they "won" and CCP tried to simplify the game and make access easier), well, that just shatters their egos. This is why when CCP Rise suggested that blowing up 'young' players was actually good for the game, they reacted to it like a Flat Earther being handed a Globe lol.
Chopper Rollins
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#462 - 2017-04-01 14:56:58 UTC
Gentle reminder that all EvE PVE is only there to make you PVP fodder.
This facilitates more complex interactions than separation / protection / arenas / whatever.



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#463 - 2017-04-01 15:25:50 UTC
Sasha Nemtsov wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The sec buff alone saves you around 2 weeks of grinding NPCs in null per gank session.

Just a small point, Infinity Ziona. The majority of New Order gankers sport a sec status of well below 0. This status is maintained, and not repaired.

The reason is that we have gank alts/mains, specifically used for the purpose. Our other alts/mains (with higher sec status) do the work which requires them to maintain those higher levels.

The only gankers you're likely to find using tags to improve their status are those with perhaps a single account, or other constraints. I don't know of any, but you may have encountered one or two in your fact-gathering tours of Atlantis...

Lowsec inhabitants also benefited from that new feature, as did anyone in New Eden needing a quick solution to an urgent problem.

Yeah recycling alts is another problem, so is the ability to gank so easily with low level characters, as are some of the other changes which reduced sec loss.

No one said the ease of ganking was only because of tags.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#464 - 2017-04-01 15:49:09 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Sasha Nemtsov wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The sec buff alone saves you around 2 weeks of grinding NPCs in null per gank session.

Just a small point, Infinity Ziona. The majority of New Order gankers sport a sec status of well below 0. This status is maintained, and not repaired.

The reason is that we have gank alts/mains, specifically used for the purpose. Our other alts/mains (with higher sec status) do the work which requires them to maintain those higher levels.

The only gankers you're likely to find using tags to improve their status are those with perhaps a single account, or other constraints. I don't know of any, but you may have encountered one or two in your fact-gathering tours of Atlantis...

Lowsec inhabitants also benefited from that new feature, as did anyone in New Eden needing a quick solution to an urgent problem.

Yeah recycling alts is another problem, so is the ability to gank so easily with low level characters, as are some of the other changes which reduced sec loss.

No one said the ease of ganking was only because of tags.


Recycling of alts in order to avoid sec status penalties is a bannable offence. if you have any proof of someone engaging in that activity you should report it.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#465 - 2017-04-01 15:57:31 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. It's slow death.


Tell that to Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, ASUS, Intel, Rockwell Industries, GEC-Marconi, Martin-Baker, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and a few thousand other companies that 'over-specialise' and do incredible business exactly because they specialise. Hell, some of these companies make all their money off a single product. Martin-Baker make ejection seats and virtually nothing else. Don't sit there and pretend like niche markets don't do extraordinarily well, because that does little more than demonstrate your own ignorance.


Over-specialise.

Those companies are successful, they produce certain products but for a general, or at least large, market. Don't tell me ASUS and Intel don't need to have a wide view of what the demand is to continue being successful. Eve is the only game where thread number 100,000 on "I was ganked, wat do" doesn't lead people to think "hmm, maybe there is some recurring problem or something", instead you guys just blame the player.

Adapt or Die.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#466 - 2017-04-01 16:04:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
Olmeca Gold wrote:
Really, for every 5 person who leaves Eve because there is no completely safe PvE, or how PvE reward is balanced with the risk you take, I bet 500 other person keeps playing for the same reason.


That still leaves a shrinking game you know. Where is the room for growth? How does a gank affect the political or economic landscape of eve? It really doesn't. You can have your political sandbox just the same without some of the things that put off new players. I've lost faith that anyone here actually cares about this game though, I get you like what it is, plenty of people don't.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#467 - 2017-04-01 16:09:26 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. It's slow death.


Tell that to Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, ASUS, Intel, Rockwell Industries, GEC-Marconi, Martin-Baker, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and a few thousand other companies that 'over-specialise' and do incredible business exactly because they specialise. Hell, some of these companies make all their money off a single product. Martin-Baker make ejection seats and virtually nothing else. Don't sit there and pretend like niche markets don't do extraordinarily well, because that does little more than demonstrate your own ignorance.
Bad examples if you are trying to prove Mr Mieyli wrong.

While those companies may have started out as specialized, they ended up being bought out by larger companies (which makes them divisions and not companies anymore) or they branched out into a broader range of products to keep themselves solvent.

Mr Epeen Cool
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#468 - 2017-04-01 16:09:38 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
................ How does a gank affect the political or economic landscape of eve? It really doesn't. ............


Yes! It absolutely does.

That gank destroys something of value that is forever gone.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#469 - 2017-04-01 16:11:30 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Eve is the only game where thread number 100,000 on "I was ganked, wat do" doesn't lead people to think "hmm, maybe there is some recurring problem or something", instead you guys just blame the player.

Adapt or Die.


This is because most of us play in the exact same environment and don't get ganked (or have survived multiple attempts). Because we use D-scan, watch local, and don't move stupidly. I've moved 5 bil isk Incursion Vindicators across high sec for years till I stopped running incursions and avoided ganks. My recent foray into high sec mining with my old corp resulted in 1 failed gank attempt and no losses on our part (gankers don't like hard targets).

What we know is that the people who get ganked in high sec and run to the forums for help are BAD PLAYERS who didn't do the simple things the majority of us do to survive. Why in the high hells should we advocate CCP changing something that our day to day experience teaches us isn't a problem.

You want this game to cater to stupid people with no gaming skill (like other MMOs do). Screw that noise. If you want to help people, teach them to survive (EVE is a survival game amongst other things, it's just that we call our Zombies "CODE" lol), though you should probably learn how to 1st.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#470 - 2017-04-01 16:15:09 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. It's slow death.


Tell that to Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, ASUS, Intel, Rockwell Industries, GEC-Marconi, Martin-Baker, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and a few thousand other companies that 'over-specialise' and do incredible business exactly because they specialise. Hell, some of these companies make all their money off a single product. Martin-Baker make ejection seats and virtually nothing else. Don't sit there and pretend like niche markets don't do extraordinarily well, because that does little more than demonstrate your own ignorance.
Bad examples if you are trying to prove Mr Mieyli wrong.

While those companies may have started out as specialized, they ended up being bought out by larger companies (which makes them divisions and not companies anymore) or they branched out into a broader range of products to keep themselves solvent.

Mr Epeen Cool


The McDonalds corp makes way more all together than the one's Wolfgang Puck owns and sponsors.

some people want EVE to be McDonalds. We want it to stay actually good.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#471 - 2017-04-01 16:52:44 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Yeah right. Zombie was banned from game permanatly for exploiting grids to do what gankers now do legally every day in EvE today.


What grid exploit would that be?

Infinity Ziona wrote:

Ganking has been buffed to hell.


Should be easy for you to list these buffs then.
Infinity Ziona wrote:

The sec buff alone saves you around 2 weeks of grinding NPCs in null per gank session.


Costs 350 mil a go and is very rarely used by gankers as they are quite happy staying at -10.

Infinity Ziona wrote:

The reason ganking is so common is because its now so easy.


So common its now less than half what it was in 2013 and falling.
Infinity Ziona wrote:

When freighters first came out you needed 30 high skilled BS pilots woth 30 plat insured battleships. Now one can be ganked by a single player multiboxing 12ish bombers and sec loss is negligible


When freighters came out they had far less HP, no fittings and the battleship cost less than today's T2 destroyers. Concord was also much slower in responding and did not jam or neut.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#472 - 2017-04-01 16:53:52 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Sasha Nemtsov wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The sec buff alone saves you around 2 weeks of grinding NPCs in null per gank session.

Just a small point, Infinity Ziona. The majority of New Order gankers sport a sec status of well below 0. This status is maintained, and not repaired.

The reason is that we have gank alts/mains, specifically used for the purpose. Our other alts/mains (with higher sec status) do the work which requires them to maintain those higher levels.

The only gankers you're likely to find using tags to improve their status are those with perhaps a single account, or other constraints. I don't know of any, but you may have encountered one or two in your fact-gathering tours of Atlantis...

Lowsec inhabitants also benefited from that new feature, as did anyone in New Eden needing a quick solution to an urgent problem.

Yeah recycling alts is another problem, so is the ability to gank so easily with low level characters, as are some of the other changes which reduced sec loss.

No one said the ease of ganking was only because of tags.


The only people claiming ganking is easy are people who've never done it.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#473 - 2017-04-01 16:56:28 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. It's slow death.


Tell that to Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, ASUS, Intel, Rockwell Industries, GEC-Marconi, Martin-Baker, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and a few thousand other companies that 'over-specialise' and do incredible business exactly because they specialise. Hell, some of these companies make all their money off a single product. Martin-Baker make ejection seats and virtually nothing else. Don't sit there and pretend like niche markets don't do extraordinarily well, because that does little more than demonstrate your own ignorance.
Bad examples if you are trying to prove Mr Mieyli wrong.

While those companies may have started out as specialized, they ended up being bought out by larger companies (which makes them divisions and not companies anymore) or they branched out into a broader range of products to keep themselves solvent.

Mr Epeen Cool


Incorrect. A subsidiary is still a company. And most of the companies I mentioned above are not subsidiaries of anyone. Who owns Boeing? Regardless of all that, they are still excellent examples of successful niche endeavours, which was the ultimate point. The details of that point don't change it.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#474 - 2017-04-01 17:51:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
So common its now less than half what it was in 2013 and falling.

Source?

Also, didn't CCP mention around about then that ganking was at an all time low, too?

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#475 - 2017-04-01 17:55:35 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
You want this game to cater to stupid people with no gaming skill (like other MMOs do).


While I wouldn't use those words, that's basically right. Though I only want this in a small area which would have the be designed not to significantly impact the wider eve universe.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#476 - 2017-04-01 17:57:17 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So common its now less than half what it was in 2013 and falling.

Source?

Also, didn't CCP mention around about then that ganking was at an all time low, too?

https://zkillboard.com/corporation/1000125/stats/

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#477 - 2017-04-01 18:00:08 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Eve is the only game where thread number 100,000 on "I was ganked, wat do" doesn't lead people to think "hmm, maybe there is some recurring problem or something", instead you guys just blame the player..

Because the player is the problem. He has all the tools necessary to survive the gank attempt, but simply doesn't use them.

This means either the player simply can't be bothered to defend himself or doesn't know about the tools at his disposal. CCP can't do anything about the former, but they might be able to help with the latter.

The solution isn't to remove challenge from the game, just to encourage players to adapt and learn.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#478 - 2017-04-01 18:00:57 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So common its now less than half what it was in 2013 and falling.

Source?

Also, didn't CCP mention around about then that ganking was at an all time low, too?

https://zkillboard.com/corporation/1000125/stats/

Ta.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#479 - 2017-04-01 18:20:17 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Eve is the only game where thread number 100,000 on "I was ganked, wat do" doesn't lead people to think "hmm, maybe there is some recurring problem or something", instead you guys just blame the player..

Because the player is the problem. He has all the tools necessary to survive the gank attempt, but simply doesn't use them.

This means either the player simply can't be bothered to defend himself or doesn't know about the tools at his disposal. CCP can't do anything about the former, but they might be able to help with the latter.

The solution isn't to remove challenge from the game, just to encourage players to adapt and learn.


Ok, good luck on that crusade.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#480 - 2017-04-01 18:48:37 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Eve is the only game where thread number 100,000 on "I was ganked, wat do" doesn't lead people to think "hmm, maybe there is some recurring problem or something", instead you guys just blame the player..

Because the player is the problem. He has all the tools necessary to survive the gank attempt, but simply doesn't use them.

This means either the player simply can't be bothered to defend himself or doesn't know about the tools at his disposal. CCP can't do anything about the former, but they might be able to help with the latter.

The solution isn't to remove challenge from the game, just to encourage players to adapt and learn.


Ok, good luck on that crusade.

I didn't say it was easy, just that it was the solution. Wrecking the game because a subset of players simply can't be bothered to play isn't exactly an acceptable alternative.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein