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Nullification and Interdiction

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#281 - 2017-03-26 04:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I'm not talking about bypassing gate security in order to shotgun a system for stragglers. Strategic cruisers have the power of battleships with the maneuverability of cruisers. Maneuvering them into enemy territory is between the level of maneuvering in a fleet of battleships, and maneuvering in a fleet of carriers. They can be used to engage fleets of any size from cruisers to battleships, they can siege starbases and citadels, and they can blockade systems.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#282 - 2017-03-26 04:42:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Merin Ryskin
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm not talking about bypassing gate security in order to shotgun a system for stragglers.


Then what exactly are you talking about? You mentioned T3s moving in and refitting for combat once they're inside enemy lines, so if that isn't about bypassing gate security then what is it?

Quote:
They can be used to engage fleets of any size from cruisers to battleships, they can siege starbases and citadels, and they can blockade systems.


Yes, they can do those things if they are fit for combat. That means giving up the covert ops cloak, since none of the cloak subsystems have anywhere near the firepower of the pure combat options. A cloaky nullified T3 is incredibly evasive and useful for ganking isolated targets (especially with a covert cyno fitted), but it isn't very effective in a straight-up fight against someone who is prepared for it. And the delay to refit from cloak to combat fits is more than long enough to ensure that you're only going to face enemies that are warned of your existence and ready to face a T3 fleet.

And of course if you're bringing a major T3 fleet then the cloak is just redundant. You can take a pure combat fit and brush aside whatever token gatecamps are in your path with overwhelming numbers. You only need to sneak if you're bringing a weak force that can't engage directly without getting massacred.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#283 - 2017-03-26 05:41:40 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
so if that isn't about bypassing gate security then what is it?

It is about bypassing security, it is not about skirmish tactics. It's about brute force engagements.

Merin Ryskin wrote:
Yes, they can do those things if they are fit for combat.

Which is easily done in seconds by carried fittings once docked in a station or even just with a mobile depot.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#284 - 2017-03-26 05:45:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Merin Ryskin
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
It is about bypassing security, it is not about skirmish tactics. It's about brute force engagements.


If you're talking about brute force engagements then you don't need a cloak to bypass security. You fit full combat, jump into their system, and wreck anything sitting on the gate. You only need to screw around with cloaking if you have a weak force that can't take a head-on fight.

Quote:
Which is easily done in seconds by carried fittings once docked in a station or even just with a mobile depot.


You realize that a mobile depot takes a full minute to anchor, right? You get where you're going, drop the mobile depot, wait 60 seconds, and can finally start refitting your ship. By this point, since you've been in local for over a minute (and announced in intel channels for much longer) everyone has docked up and anything you gained from sneaking in cloaked has been lost.

And of course if you have access to a station to refit then you control the system, and have no need to use a cloak to sneak into it. Just fly out in full combat fit and start killing stuff.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#285 - 2017-03-26 08:58:26 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:


If you're talking about brute force engagements then you don't need a cloak to bypass security.


Brute force doesn't always work, lots of people use the cloak and nullification to get into a system then refit to combat.


Merin Ryskin wrote:

You realize that a mobile depot takes a full minute to anchor, right? You get where you're going, drop the mobile depot, wait 60 seconds, and can finally start refitting your ship. By this point, since you've been in local for over a minute (and announced in intel channels for much longer) everyone has docked up and anything you gained from sneaking in cloaked has been lost.


We have deployed citadels in enemy staging systems, MTU for refitting are not much of an issue.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#286 - 2017-03-26 09:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm not talking about bypassing gate security in order to shotgun a system for stragglers. Strategic cruisers have the power of battleships with the maneuverability of cruisers. Maneuvering them into enemy territory is between the level of maneuvering in a fleet of battleships, and maneuvering in a fleet of carriers. They can be used to engage fleets of any size from cruisers to battleships, they can siege starbases and citadels, and they can blockade systems.


The key thing is that they have fitting options, make them nullified and covert and they are very ineffective.

The more important point is that Battleships are too weak in terms of tank.

I want to get back to the logistics of small entities, when I was in Stain I had to use T3C's to move stuff around, big alliances do not use them for logistics, they have Citadels and jump freighters. If CCP at the behest of a big alliance dominated CSM do this then kiss goodbye to another group of players. Stain for example was left with one kickout station from lowsec for JF's or WH logistics for small groups, removing nullified and cloaks from T3C's will reduce options and make it so much more difficult.

I had to use a covert nullified T3C as a scout for my BR or DST to have any chance of getting them through. TEST have JF's jumping to Citadels, which I see quite often, so you have no idea and baltec1 certainly does not.

EDIT: You make a post about refitting my Proteus has 280m3 cargo space, each subsystem is 40m3 plus the different fit ammo and so on, it really is not that effective. I was in a Tengu fleet the other day and we moved to the system in combat fit, the only thing this enables is people using their T3C to get around gate camps and then re-fit and that is fairly niche.

The problem you will get is that with this change we will see a lot more gate camps and that strangles the game imo.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#287 - 2017-03-26 10:16:04 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


The key thing is that they have fitting options, make them nullified and covert and they are very ineffective.


Better than their cov ops cruiser counterparts while also being near impossible to catch.


Dracvlad wrote:


The more important point is that Battleships are too weak in terms of tank.


In what way?

Dracvlad wrote:

I want to get back to the logistics of small entities, when I was in Stain I had to use T3C's to move stuff around, big alliances do not use them for logistics, they have Citadels and jump freighters.


We do use them for logistics.

Dracvlad wrote:


I had to use a covert nullified T3C as a scout for my BR or DST to have any chance of getting them through.


Blocade runners do not need a scout, they have a cov ops cloak, align like a frigate and warp as fast as an interceptor.


Dracvlad wrote:

The problem you will get is that with this change we will see a lot more gate camps and that strangles the game imo.


Nope. What we will see is people having to actually put a little bit more effort in beating a gate camp than clicking the warp to next gate button.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#288 - 2017-03-26 12:37:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
baltec1, I am with a number of people who know you and respect you, however you know how easy it is to catch BR's with bubbles, seriously mate. I was using them to scout for BR's, rather more work than warping gate to gate. Also if you have ever jumped like I have into a large fleet on the other side of a gate setup to catch people you will know just how easy it is to die, I was lucky because I had warp core stabs on the Tengu and just got out.

BR's need a scout, they are easy to kill, very easy with bubbles.

This is a bad move against smaller groups, I am with a big group that can drop Astrahus down and JF to them, but I am still able to say why this is wrong. You also know that I have a thing about AFK cloaking camping and it is very difficult to stop T3C's but I have no issue with ATK camping and I see that a nullified cloaky T3C gives options.

REMOVING the ability to cloak and nulify from these ships is a bad move for overall game balance.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#289 - 2017-03-26 16:00:13 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1, I am with a number of people who know you and respect you, however you know how easy it is to catch BR's with bubbles, seriously mate.


Only the idiots that don't bother to even use bookmarks. A good BR pilot is incredibly hard to catch.

Dracvlad wrote:

Also if you have ever jumped like I have into a large fleet on the other side of a gate setup to catch people you will know just how easy it is to die, I was lucky because I had warp core stabs on the Tengu and just got out.


We used to jump booster tengu into fleets of hundreds with no fear of losing them.

Dracvlad wrote:

BR's need a scout, they are easy to kill, very easy with bubbles.


Only if the pilot is bad.

Dracvlad wrote:



REMOVING the ability to cloak and nulify from these ships is a bad move for overall game balance.


Giving it in the first place was the poor balance move.

A cov ops cloak on a cruiser is a powerful tool. Nullification is a powerful tool. Combined and you make a cruise sized ship all but impossible to catch. Piloting skill is something that should matter when trying to break through a camp.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#290 - 2017-03-26 16:11:03 UTC
I noticed your normal evasion tactics, it is not so much warping to the gate, it is jumping through and finding an effective gate camp, your BM's will not help then. Skill does not really come into it apart from hoping that the person on the other side of teh gate is useless.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#291 - 2017-03-26 16:22:59 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
I noticed your normal evasion tactics, it is not so much warping to the gate, it is jumping through and finding an effective gate camp, your BM's will not help then. Skill does not really come into it apart from hoping that the person on the other side of teh gate is useless.


You fit a MWD, pulse that and hit the cloak. BR are fast ships and highly maneuverable, good piloting gets you through. That's why they are called blockade runners...
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#292 - 2017-03-26 16:56:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I noticed your normal evasion tactics, it is not so much warping to the gate, it is jumping through and finding an effective gate camp, your BM's will not help then. Skill does not really come into it apart from hoping that the person on the other side of teh gate is useless.


You fit a MWD, pulse that and hit the cloak. BR are fast ships and highly maneuverable, good piloting gets you through. That's why they are called blockade runners...


Well I know some very skilled players who did that and still died also don't forget that the mechanics have been changed to make it so even a noob can do it effectively, for me it is more like hoping that a useless player is the one putting up the bubble and I can say that as I have actually evaded a fair few myself using exactly what you just posted, the issue is that if you have anyone remotely good camping you have little chance.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#293 - 2017-03-26 17:01:56 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dracvlad wrote:


Well I know some very skilled players who did that and still died also don't forget that the mechanics have been changed to make it so even a noob can do it effectively, for me it is more like hoping that a useless player is the one putting up the bubble and I can say that as I have actually evaded a fair few myself using exactly what you just posted, the issue is that if you have anyone remotely good camping you have little chance.


Its seems you are not very good at this game. Everything you seem to try ends in disaster and you running to the forums calling for nerfs and over powered abilities.

I wonder if you even know what a BR can pull off
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#294 - 2017-03-26 17:58:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Well I know some very skilled players who did that and still died also don't forget that the mechanics have been changed to make it so even a noob can do it effectively, for me it is more like hoping that a useless player is the one putting up the bubble and I can say that as I have actually evaded a fair few myself using exactly what you just posted, the issue is that if you have anyone remotely good camping you have little chance.


Its seems you are not very good at this game. Everything you seem to try ends in disaster and you running to the forums calling for nerfs and over powered abilities.

I wonder if you even know what a BR can pull off


Well if you can see a BR or DST loss on any of my characters I would be surprised, you see when I gated the Sabre had more than a BR to deal with at which point they did the running. But if that is being bad at the game, I am bad at this game.

You are the one calling for a nerf not me, I rather like Strategic Cruisers as they are and they are not over powered when nullified and covert. At a game balance level; they are an effective tool for solo or small groups to be able to move around null sec, which is something that large alliances hate and which is why people like you want them nerfed. The nullified and covert side of things has little real value for you guys, because with a recon ship you just pop the cyno and game over if caught at a gate.

I expect that CCP along with the CSM will make a bad decision on this, but as I use a JF service for my needs I can sit there going meh while thinking what a stupid thing to do and wait to see yet more players call it a day, which seems to be what you want.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#295 - 2017-03-26 18:02:38 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Well if you can see a BR or DST loss on any of my characters I would be surprised, you see when I gated the Sabre had more than a BR to deal with at which point they did the running. But if that is being bad at the game, I am bad at this game.

You are the one calling for a nerf not me, I rather like Strategic Cruisers as they are and they are not over powered when nullified and covert. At a game balance level; they are an effective tool for solo or small groups to be able to move around null sec, which is something that large alliances hate and which is why people like you want them nerfed. The nullified and covert side of things has little real value for you guys, because with a recon ship you just pop the cyno and game over if caught at a gate.

I expect that CCP along with the CSM will make a bad decision on this, but as I use a JF service for my needs I can sit there going meh while thinking what a stupid thing to do and wait to see yet more players call it a day, which seems to be what you want.


Uncatchable ships are very much a problem especially ships as powerful as T3C.

We use nullified cloaking T3C just as much if not more than the small guys.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#296 - 2017-03-26 18:08:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Well if you can see a BR or DST loss on any of my characters I would be surprised, you see when I gated the Sabre had more than a BR to deal with at which point they did the running. But if that is being bad at the game, I am bad at this game.

You are the one calling for a nerf not me, I rather like Strategic Cruisers as they are and they are not over powered when nullified and covert. At a game balance level; they are an effective tool for solo or small groups to be able to move around null sec, which is something that large alliances hate and which is why people like you want them nerfed. The nullified and covert side of things has little real value for you guys, because with a recon ship you just pop the cyno and game over if caught at a gate.

I expect that CCP along with the CSM will make a bad decision on this, but as I use a JF service for my needs I can sit there going meh while thinking what a stupid thing to do and wait to see yet more players call it a day, which seems to be what you want.


Uncatchable ships are very much a problem especially ships as powerful as T3C.

We use nullified cloaking T3C just as much if not more than the small guys.


Is that ship powerful with a covert cloak and nullification, nope, it may have a decent tank, but DPS is anaemic, you always generalise which is why I hope CCP never listens to you.

Of course you use them, but the value to you is less, your logistics are easy, just plonk down an Astrahus and you are good to go, solo and small groups cannot do that.

What will happen is if they remove the ability to covert cloak and be nullified is that there will be a big increase in gate camps which is not really a good thing for Eve especially for alpha's wanting to move around 0.0.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#297 - 2017-03-26 18:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dracvlad wrote:


Is that ship powerful with a covert cloak and nullification, nope, it may have a decent tank, but DPS is anaemic, you always generalise which is why I hope CCP never listens to you.


Better than the recons.

Dracvlad wrote:

Of course you use them, but the value to you is less, your logistics are easy, just plonk down an Astrahus and you are good to go, solo and small groups cannot do that.


Astra doesn't help with running missions in null, running 10/10s, exploration, personal transportation or when out hunting. Every reason a small group has to use these ships also applies equally as much to us.

Dracvlad wrote:

What will happen is if they remove the ability to covert cloak and be nullified is that there will be a big increase in gate camps which is not really a good thing for Eve especially for alpha's wanting to move around 0.0.


No there won't. The only difference is the current gatecamps will now stand the same chance at catching a T3C as every other cov ops cruiser.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#298 - 2017-03-26 18:31:50 UTC
If nullified cloaked T3C are so much problem to the nullsec alliances, in PVP combat sense, then nerf combat abilities on mentioned subsystems.

If nullsec alliances have problems with nullified cloaked T3C passing by gates and dropping mobile depotes to refit then there is no problem with T3C. There is a problem with nullsec alliances letting them refit.

baltec1 as always see only part of the problem - T3C blobing. It's a more complex change. Abilites to light cyno behind enemy lines, exploration vessels (and sleepers site - they were designed to do in T3C), possible WHs income shake (in bad way).

When nullsec alliance memeber try to improve the game I'm always sceptical. Nerfing the ability to move around the cluster will not improve gameplay for anyone. It will lead to stagnation. What happen to WHs spawing in null?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#299 - 2017-03-26 18:42:01 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
If nullified cloaked T3C are so much problem to the nullsec alliances, in PVP combat sense, then nerf combat abilities on mentioned subsystems.

If nullsec alliances have problems with nullified cloaked T3C passing by gates and dropping mobile depotes to refit then there is no problem with T3C. There is a problem with nullsec alliances letting them refit.

baltec1 as always see only part of the problem - T3C blobing. It's a more complex change. Abilites to light cyno behind enemy lines, exploration vessels (and sleepers site - they were designed to do in T3C), possible WHs income shake (in bad way).

When nullsec alliance memeber try to improve the game I'm always sceptical. Nerfing the ability to move around the cluster will not improve gameplay for anyone. It will lead to stagnation. What happen to WHs spawing in null?


There is no issue with cov ops cloaks, there is no issue with nullification.

The problem is a cruiser that has both. All it has to do to break through any gate camp is click warp to next gate, every other cov ops needs to actually be piloted past the gate camp.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#300 - 2017-03-26 18:46:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Is that ship powerful with a covert cloak and nullification, nope, it may have a decent tank, but DPS is anaemic, you always generalise which is why I hope CCP never listens to you.


Better than the recons.

Dracvlad wrote:

Of course you use them, but the value to you is less, your logistics are easy, just plonk down an Astrahus and you are good to go, solo and small groups cannot do that.


Astra doesn't help with running missions in null, running 10/10s, exploration, personal transportation or when out hunting. Every reason a small group has to use these ships also applies equally as much to us.

Dracvlad wrote:

What will happen is if they remove the ability to covert cloak and be nullified is that there will be a big increase in gate camps which is not really a good thing for Eve especially for alpha's wanting to move around 0.0.


No there won't. The only difference is the current gatecamps will now stand the same chance at catching a T3C as every other cov ops cruiser.


My focus has been on the very important role these ships setup for covert and nullified play for solo or small groups in terms of logistics and when they are fit for covert and nuliified they are very gimped, the balance is fine, stop crying for nerfs...


When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp