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Can we get rid of CSM after the recent PLEX insider trading fiasco?

First post
Author
Pew Terror
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2017-03-16 23:18:06 UTC
I never understood the CSM...

Only informing a select small group about changes and exclusively valuing their feedback is just bad customer interaction.
Cherry Sulphate
ojingo
#42 - 2017-03-16 23:43:41 UTC
op, you mentioned dank isk.
i'm somewhat in awe of your internet cool.
Drake Aihaken
CODE.d
#43 - 2017-03-16 23:50:51 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Will people actually quit over this? If not, then it's essentially a non-issue.

Well, I'll support your decision to quit if that's what you really want to do...
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#44 - 2017-03-16 23:51:52 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Second, this change is likely to introduce a lot of new PLEX onto the market in the form of spare AUR. Like, I've personally got about a PLEX's worth of AUR that I've never spent before that I got entirely for free, and a lot of others will have something similar.
Hardly any new PLEX being introduced compared to the many billions of AUR that will simply be erased from the game.

Keep in mind that you need 1000+ Aur to be considered for the conversion. Then remember that there are probably 500,000 characters in the game with leftover AUR that amounts to less than 1000 per character.

That's straight up theft by CCP to my mind and needs to have some careful discussion before this goes live. You buy AUR with cash and then find it gone one day?

Not good for business, CCP. Not good at all.

Mr Epeen Cool

AUR below 1000 will be erased? WTF
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#45 - 2017-03-16 23:57:12 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Second, this change is likely to introduce a lot of new PLEX onto the market in the form of spare AUR. Like, I've personally got about a PLEX's worth of AUR that I've never spent before that I got entirely for free, and a lot of others will have something similar.
Hardly any new PLEX being introduced compared to the many billions of AUR that will simply be erased from the game.

Keep in mind that you need 1000+ Aur to be considered for the conversion. Then remember that there are probably 500,000 characters in the game with leftover AUR that amounts to less than 1000 per character.

That's straight up theft by CCP to my mind and needs to have some careful discussion before this goes live. You buy AUR with cash and then find it gone one day?

Not good for business, CCP. Not good at all.

Mr Epeen Cool


Will people actually quit over this? If not, then it's essentially a non-issue.


Since when is corporate theft from private citizens not a real and important issue?

This goes WAY beyond EVE in its entirety, it is theft pure and simple.

If my RL corp could steal just one dollar from everyone in the world id be rich as hell, but its only one dollar so its okay, is that it?

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Drake Aihaken
CODE.d
#46 - 2017-03-16 23:57:18 UTC
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2017-03-17 00:05:00 UTC
Jacques d'Orleans
#48 - 2017-03-17 00:18:53 UTC
Vigirr
#49 - 2017-03-17 00:23:17 UTC
mkint wrote:
Look at price history graphs. They have been almost completely flat for a good long while, maybe a 1% fluctuation up or down. There wasn't any public inciting incident to drive prices up, they should have stayed completely flat. Then a 20% gain in 3 days with nothing to provoke such a ridiculous jump, and suddenly after the fact there's a big related announcement. It is suspicious as hell. IA had better be doing some investigating, not just of CSM but of CCP employees. If this was Wall Street, somebody would be going to jail.


This right there. This is beyond a small rng fluctuation, this is insider trading.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#50 - 2017-03-17 00:25:42 UTC
Kalemi wrote:
If there's any foul play there should be a pretty easy to follow paper trail.

^
Girka Kring
Doomheim
#51 - 2017-03-17 00:29:21 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Hir Miriel wrote:
Why would you want to delete the CSM because of someone cheating?

EVE is built on the premise of spying and lying. Infiltrating organisations and destroying them for profit and funzies.

It would be unrealistic to expect the CSM of EVE to work differently, where would the excitement be then?

All the politics and backstabbing of the elections of CSM are part of the attraction and unique nature of EVE.

Does any other game have a player council?

The player council is a meta-game which depends on the game of EVE and adds to EVE.

Sure, CCP devs probably hate the CSM representatives, but that's not because the reps come along pretending to know about the game and interfering with the devs' jobs, that's because the CSM doesn't know about deodorants.

Pretty much this. You have to remember this is a company that not only created THIS game in the way it is today and you need to realize the playerbase. This is basically what Eve is about really. That this surprises people when it happens is amusing in the most delightful way. Its like saying water is wet and being surprised by it being true.

It would be amusing to be a fly on the wall of what goes on between the CSM and CCP as to what, when or how to say certain things or what not to say as well. It is an entirely different meta that is right.Twisted


Yeah, dumb me believing in the idea that CSM should be an independent, objective body.
Would you also support insider trading, when i.e. a Central Bank high ranked employee leaks info to his buddies about the incoming changes in interest rates? Last time I checked that was a crime in most of the developed countries.
Elenahina
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#52 - 2017-03-17 00:32:25 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Second, this change is likely to introduce a lot of new PLEX onto the market in the form of spare AUR. Like, I've personally got about a PLEX's worth of AUR that I've never spent before that I got entirely for free, and a lot of others will have something similar.
Hardly any new PLEX being introduced compared to the many billions of AUR that will simply be erased from the game.

Keep in mind that you need 1000+ Aur to be considered for the conversion. Then remember that there are probably 500,000 characters in the game with leftover AUR that amounts to less than 1000 per character.

That's straight up theft by CCP to my mind and needs to have some careful discussion before this goes live. You buy AUR with cash and then find it gone one day?

Not good for business, CCP. Not good at all.

Mr Epeen Cool


Will people actually quit over this? If not, then it's essentially a non-issue.


Will anyone care if they do? Honestly? Unless it's someone who really has an impact on the community, no one is even going to notice.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Cade Windstalker
#53 - 2017-03-17 00:34:25 UTC
Girka Kring wrote:
I would distinguish two important moments: before and after the new changes are implemented.

PLEX prices will jump even more after the changes were announced, due to all the ppl with less than 1000 AUR will want to get a PLEX. That's how, if the theory is correct, friends of CSM already made huge profits - since they were buying PLEX for a while now. The differences in PLEX prices, over the last 20 days, are so huge, that those involved ppl could have made trillions of ISK already.

PLEX prices will drop a lot after the announced changes are implemented - ppl will lose their AUR under 1000, so they won't be pushing PLEX prices and all the existing AUR above 1000 will flood the PLEX market. At this point CSM and friends should already converted everything to ISK.


This still doesn't pass the Econ 101 sniff test.

If people were buying a bunch of PLEX in advance of this announcement then that would have pushed the price up over the last few months, not kept it roughly steady.

Also the current change in PLEX prices is... not that much honestly. The drop between November 16th when Citadel dropped and November 30th when the price more or less stabilized was about twice this rise, and all of that was just normal post-patch PLEX shocks.

Also converting PLEX to ISK requires that the price jump, and there's no good way to push the PLEX market up without either buying a ton of PLEX, which is economically super risky, or getting a bunch of people to buy a ton of PLEX which is basically impossible to keep a secret.

This seems a lot like you haven't looked at the PLEX market much in the last couple years, looked at it today, and immediately jumped to conspiracy theories to explain it, when in reality the PLEX market has jumped around tons over the last few months let alone the last few years.

Girka Kring wrote:
I'd love to see some data about the sudden jump in the number of active accounts. However the public data SEE HERE suggest that the amount of active accounts is recently only decreasing.

I've seen ppl in many trade channels ingame asking why are PLEX prices rising so fast recently and noone so far had any convicing answer...

...until now, when CCP released the info that CSM had before everyone else.


That's active players logged in, not subbed accounts...
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2017-03-17 00:42:48 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Girka Kring wrote:
I would distinguish two important moments: before and after the new changes are implemented.

PLEX prices will jump even more after the changes were announced, due to all the ppl with less than 1000 AUR will want to get a PLEX. That's how, if the theory is correct, friends of CSM already made huge profits - since they were buying PLEX for a while now. The differences in PLEX prices, over the last 20 days, are so huge, that those involved ppl could have made trillions of ISK already.

PLEX prices will drop a lot after the announced changes are implemented - ppl will lose their AUR under 1000, so they won't be pushing PLEX prices and all the existing AUR above 1000 will flood the PLEX market. At this point CSM and friends should already converted everything to ISK.


This still doesn't pass the Econ 101 sniff test.

If people were buying a bunch of PLEX in advance of this announcement then that would have pushed the price up over the last few months, not kept it roughly steady.

Also the current change in PLEX prices is... not that much honestly. The drop between November 16th when Citadel dropped and November 30th when the price more or less stabilized was about twice this rise, and all of that was just normal post-patch PLEX shocks.

Also converting PLEX to ISK requires that the price jump, and there's no good way to push the PLEX market up without either buying a ton of PLEX, which is economically super risky, or getting a bunch of people to buy a ton of PLEX which is basically impossible to keep a secret.

This seems a lot like you haven't looked at the PLEX market much in the last couple years, looked at it today, and immediately jumped to conspiracy theories to explain it, when in reality the PLEX market has jumped around tons over the last few months let alone the last few years.

Girka Kring wrote:
I'd love to see some data about the sudden jump in the number of active accounts. However the public data SEE HERE suggest that the amount of active accounts is recently only decreasing.

I've seen ppl in many trade channels ingame asking why are PLEX prices rising so fast recently and noone so far had any convicing answer...

...until now, when CCP released the info that CSM had before everyone else.


That's active players logged in, not subbed accounts...


STOP DEFENDING WHAT IS NOT DEFENDABLE!

also: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/5zufh4/dank_leaks/
if reddit says that is true... then it's true!!!!!!!!! no counter arguments!!! LEGITCool
Girka Kring
Doomheim
#55 - 2017-03-17 01:05:53 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Girka Kring wrote:
I would distinguish two important moments: before and after the new changes are implemented.

PLEX prices will jump even more after the changes were announced, due to all the ppl with less than 1000 AUR will want to get a PLEX. That's how, if the theory is correct, friends of CSM already made huge profits - since they were buying PLEX for a while now. The differences in PLEX prices, over the last 20 days, are so huge, that those involved ppl could have made trillions of ISK already.

PLEX prices will drop a lot after the announced changes are implemented - ppl will lose their AUR under 1000, so they won't be pushing PLEX prices and all the existing AUR above 1000 will flood the PLEX market. At this point CSM and friends should already converted everything to ISK.


This still doesn't pass the Econ 101 sniff test.

If people were buying a bunch of PLEX in advance of this announcement then that would have pushed the price up over the last few months, not kept it roughly steady.

Also the current change in PLEX prices is... not that much honestly. The drop between November 16th when Citadel dropped and November 30th when the price more or less stabilized was about twice this rise, and all of that was just normal post-patch PLEX shocks.

Also converting PLEX to ISK requires that the price jump, and there's no good way to push the PLEX market up without either buying a ton of PLEX, which is economically super risky, or getting a bunch of people to buy a ton of PLEX which is basically impossible to keep a secret.

This seems a lot like you haven't looked at the PLEX market much in the last couple years, looked at it today, and immediately jumped to conspiracy theories to explain it, when in reality the PLEX market has jumped around tons over the last few months let alone the last few years.

Girka Kring wrote:
I'd love to see some data about the sudden jump in the number of active accounts. However the public data SEE HERE suggest that the amount of active accounts is recently only decreasing.

I've seen ppl in many trade channels ingame asking why are PLEX prices rising so fast recently and noone so far had any convicing answer...

...until now, when CCP released the info that CSM had before everyone else.


That's active players logged in, not subbed accounts...


Well I suspect the leaks started quite some time ago, but then it spread, and finally, about 14 days before the announcement there were so many ppl buying PLEX that the price started to rise. Remember that on average there are ~4k PLEX traded every single day, that's 4,4 trillion ISK market. Pushing the price by even 20% requires a lot more demand than supply. Also remember about all the markets tied to PLEX market, so basically everything that cost AUR - skill extractors for example. That 20% change in price over last 2 weeks is huge.

I already said that there will be even more demand for PLEX when all ppl having less than 1000 AUR realize that without buying a PLEX their AUR will be wasted. That's the inisder trading info I'm talking about. If CCP didn't decide to remove AUR below 1000 from all the accounts, then there wouldn't really be any field for those CSM info manipulations - since we don't have swap orders, and ppl can't get ISK from goods that are losing value over time.

I agree, PLEX prices were fluctuating but there wasn't any cause for it recently and this PLEX changes announcements, and especially the part about removing AUR under 1000 is the most reasonable explanation behind PLEX price rising. However I would expect it to happen after the announcement, not before it...

And the data about declining number of active accounts isn't really selling the story about all the rorqual miners activating and using PLEX for 10 more alt accounts, rising the PLEX price by 20%. Unless you actually believe that they were already playing 10 extra alpha accounts everyday, while farming in their rorquals.
Professor Push
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#56 - 2017-03-17 01:35:21 UTC
“People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”

― Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations
Cade Windstalker
#57 - 2017-03-17 02:04:20 UTC
Girka Kring wrote:
Well I suspect the leaks started quite some time ago, but then it spread, and finally, about 14 days before the announcement there were so many ppl buying PLEX that the price started to rise. Remember that on average there are ~4k PLEX traded every single day, that's 4,4 trillion ISK market. Pushing the price by even 20% requires a lot more demand than supply. Also remember about all the markets tied to PLEX market, so basically everything that cost AUR - skill extractors for example. That 20% change in price over last 2 weeks is huge.

I already said that there will be even more demand for PLEX when all ppl having less than 1000 AUR realize that without buying a PLEX their AUR will be wasted. That's the inisder trading info I'm talking about. If CCP didn't decide to remove AUR below 1000 from all the accounts, then there wouldn't really be any field for those CSM info manipulations - since we don't have swap orders, and ppl can't get ISK from goods that are losing value over time.

I agree, PLEX prices were fluctuating but there wasn't any cause for it recently and this PLEX changes announcements, and especially the part about removing AUR under 1000 is the most reasonable explanation behind PLEX price rising. However I would expect it to happen after the announcement, not before it...

And the data about declining number of active accounts isn't really selling the story about all the rorqual miners activating and using PLEX for 10 more alt accounts, rising the PLEX price by 20%. Unless you actually believe that they were already playing 10 extra alpha accounts everyday, while farming in their rorquals.


Your assumptions are growing assumptions to try to support themselves... just let them fall over and die peacefully.

Also, again, this isn't that big of a swing. Just look at the history of the PLEX market.

Your AUR theory doesn't hold water, you can just convert the AUR into some other fungible good like Skins and cash it out that way. There's basically no reason to buy PLEX just to keep AUR around.

Yes, there was a cause for it recently, the start of the recent spike literally coincides with the patch notes being released. You see fluctuations like this *every major patch* this has been true for literally most of a decade at this point.

There is no data on declining numbers of active accounts, there's data on character activity but that's subject to plenty of external factors and falls off every winter, independent of PLEX prices. In fact the week over week decline is less than 500 pilots. The major snow storm that just hit the US East Cost on patch day could easily account for that.

This whole theory is the very definition of jumping to conclusions with no evidence Lol
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2017-03-17 02:09:29 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

This whole theory is the very definition of jumping to conclusions with no evidence Lol



Legit CCP alt...
Pls Ignore Roll
Peta Chieve
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2017-03-17 02:25:27 UTC
While i would not consider this theory impossible, i would argue that had CSM members leaked this information to enough people, the market would of been showing it the past few weeks if not longer, so even if there was a leak, i would not consider it to be a large enough issue, that an entire alliance is going to make ******** ISK due to insider information. In all likely hood, it's maybe a handful of people doing it discretely, in which case its nothing out of the ordinary, merely people buying and selling PLEX, and there's no way to "prove" one way or another, unless there was massive move on the market, but looking at the figures, it's likely a coincidence or just a few people noticing a volume change or trend and then following it.

Proud CEO of White Partyhat Trading Company

We look forward to meeting you.

Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#60 - 2017-03-17 02:43:26 UTC
I voted!

@lunettelulu7