Crime & Punishment

First of, WTF does Hello Kitty online have to do with it all? Since when is it a crime to want to have more Fun in a game? Are you serious there?

Lets please leave the derogatory rhetoric out of it.

I am no carebear, I am just expressing constructive criticism based on many discussions with people who have tried EVE and did not like it and left.

EVE is a niche game because of the way it is setup not because it is not known. Most people (in MMORPG playerbase) know of EVE many people choose to stay away because of its constraints.

Now lets make something clear here.

All of the suggestions made, and I think even the efforts of the OP are moot if CCP is happy with the popularity and player numbers and income of the game. If they wish the status quo then this discussion ends here.

Having said this, and assuming, we all want a better game and more people playing it...the questions we should be asking ourselves are not about attacking people who offer differing suggestions which may make you fear of losing your niche enjoyment, but rather questions which would open up ideas towards making the game better for more people.

A starting point is for instance to ask ourselves, how many people actually try EVE every year and how many of these actually stay?

I know that allot of people try EVE, and most do not stay.

So in my view based on that information the next natural question to ask is , why?

And how can the game improve so that more people actually stay?


It was mentioned here that the game is Dystopian in nature, it was mentioned that people should feel worry playing it and that people would also feel angry. Butt his is maybe how a specific set of people like to play the game.

Yet, the Dystopian nature of the game can be in relation to its Lore as well, and does not always have to be in terms of game play.

Nevertheless, the larger question is, why force everyone in to that mindset?

I mean NEW EDEN is big enough to cater multiple styles of play. You can feel angry in Nullsec, you can feel worried in Wormhole space..but why does it have to be everywhere?

And it is upon that rationale that I make the suggestions that I do, mind you, some of them are actually attempted solutions to problems people who quit the game expressed as reasons for quitting the game.

We have a New Player Experience in place, it is still being developed, but, what comes after it counts as well.

It was asked why Expand Empire space when most people like to stay near Trading Hubs?

It was also said that if Empire space was expanded more people would settle in it.

So I think the second proposition solves the first because if more people settle in Empire space then more of it will be occupied and new trade Hubs will be opened.

Because right now most people stay close to existing Hubs because there isn't any justification to create new ones and also because currently empire space is rather constrained and limited.

So there is a cause and effect here, which we should be asking ourselves how to reverse and improve the over all experience.

More people in the game is not only good for CCP, it is good for all the game, Because a certain percentage of more people will go fit in the various areas of EVE, some will add themselves to the Pirate pool some will head to nullsec bolstering Corps there and alliances, some others will fill the ranks of Empire corps and some will join Wormhole corps.

More people means more activity, more business, more industry more wars too, more opportunities and more profits for all, and all that together means more FUN! Ok?

And More fun in a game is a Good thing, we do not play games to cry and sob...

No matter how you put it, more people is a good thing for many reasons and one would have to be very short sighted and selfish to say otherwise.

The point is that EVE is 13 years old...and it does not have more people. Well, you know what they say? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is actually the definition of insanity.

If we want more people in EVE (and since more people is good), then somethings have to change, and we must accept the change for the betterment of the game that we all claim to like and love.

As such the question is open to all, what can change so that more people come and play and stay?

I offered my take on it, if you think that you have a better suggestions to make, please go ahead!

Something like: "Think of the children, nerf Highsec agression mechanics!"

One of those people who think EVE will attract millions of players if only you make Highsec boring enogh.

It's called "playing the devils advocate".
Having fun in a game is a feeling and a form of personal definition.
What might be fun for you, might be not fun for others.
From your point of view the points you made are legit, from my point of view they're not.
Explanation: My point of view is, that if CCP does exactly what you're suggesting EvE will end as one of the many other generic MMO's who are already flooding the market.
Or even worse, it will end up like Star Wars Galaxies which went from a popular MMO into close down after the failed NGE upgrade in relatively short time.


Yes, it is an it will always be and it was intended to be something different, not the mainstream MMO like WoW or SW:TOR and so on.
What you see as constraints, are imho no constraints at all. I want to play EvE as it is, a harsh, dark, dystopian place, and yes i love it to watch my six permanently, i love it when i lose a ship.
Losing a ship is an learning effort, to avoid further loses, well, at least for me. I will never play a EVE online with the suggestion you made, why should i play a generic EVE-MMO, when there are already hundreds of those alvailable.
Let EVE be a niche game, not everything has to be stream lined to cater for the hipster crowd mainstream today.
Not everything has to cater to everybodies taste.



Well, many people try games and don't stay, for a myriad of different reasons. For some the game is to hard, for some the game is to easy, for some it is not their cup of tea. I don't know how many don't stay and why they don't stay in EvE and to be honest i had the same in mayn other Games, bets example is Elite:Dangerous, i tried it, i was bored to hell and i left.
If people don't like something, they move on, moving on is part of a gamers life, simple as that and imho trying to bring those back who didn't liked Eve, for different reasosn, won't be successfull.



First of all, nobody is forcing someone to a different mindset, because nobody is forcing anybody to play the game. If the mindset doesn't cater your taste, don't play that game, play Elite or wait for Star Citizen (no pun intended).
Even more, the easy gratification crowd is permanently coming to ***** and moan about "make it more fun": No personal attack intended.



Counter question: Why not? Why has everything today to be cozy and easy for everyone? Why has everything in games today to be pretty, shiny, easy and "everybody loves everybody" style.
Where are the people who want to achieve something without being taken by the hand and led thru a pink "happy go lucky" paradise?
IMHO, that's even more dystopian than EvE's original set up, it's almost Orwellian some could say.


I play EvE online because I want to play in a harsh dark world, if we change EVE as you suggest, all those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

Get away from the trade and mission hubs and Empire is a desolate wasteland. There's probably 1000's of hisec systems that rarely see more than 3 people in local, I know of entire constellations which have a collective number of residents in the single digits.

Expanding Empire space will not result in a more widespread population, it will result in even more empty systems for those in the know to farm the shite out of the resources while everybody else clusters around the trade and mission hubs.

Pretty much this. I understand why so many corporations establish themselves by popular resources and trade hubs - you minimize the amount of effort you need to put in to be prosperous. But the areas of space like Derelik or Solitude are super dead end to the point where most 'content creators' won't even bother unless they have a serious grudge against you. Sure, they absolutely suck logistically, but that's an opportunity to make those regions better for you and your group.

In my opinion CCP doesn't do enough to educate new players considering how many end up living and learning their first days/weeks/months in Highsec. It's really hard to cope with losses because when you're a new character you see a lot of your assets as time investments just because of how hard it can be to make isk in those early days if you don't know what you are doing. Pouring hours into saving up for something just to have it smashed an hour later feels bad. Newbros well aren't educated on the golden rules of EVE; especially that ships are tools and not your character, they don't understand the risks of autopiloting, and they don't recognize the potential threats that they can face in Highsec in general, despite it being the "safer" space. I don't like reinforcing the perception that EVE is a scary game where everyone is out to get you, but telling players that Highsec is safe is a damned lie.

Where are you pulling these figures from?

Sorry man, I am but a human being, I am not perfect I make mistakes and omissions at time. Don't kill me for it.

How did you find these people? If they left, you would have had to gone looking for them. That sounds a bit creepy but w/e. Im hoping your answer is that they all dwell on a 'i quit eve' forums board that has links to there accounts and some kinda proof that they actually played, what they did, and if they even tried to dodge the odd wardec or suicide gank of a vessel containing the life savings of three pilots and a fedo unescorted.

TL:DR I dont believe you. Your ideas are anti-eve and i hope BoB shows no mercy on your pod.

(have to do this in two replies, this forum is made for instant gratification small messages only)



First things first. Loss in our days has been ironed out somewhat. The game is still Risk Vs Reward, but it used to be also "Hard Earned, easy to lose", today this has changed towards "Easy earned easy to lose", which is a better formula for Fun in a PvP oriented game with Loss.

The issue is Justice and Crime and Punishment. The game lacks in that regard. I do not care how Dystopian the Lore is supposed to be at one point one has to recognise the actual game systems in place and the gameplay that emerges from them, may actually be detrimental to overall fun factor.

Right now, we have a playground where people are scared to build sand castles on, because they are prevented doing so, discouraged from doing so, told to shut up and stay in a little corner doing whatever other players want them to be doing.

You mention the golden rules, and I agree every player should know and consider them but the rules today are themselves ridiculous and a testament of how limited EVE gameplay really is.

Because it might be a Sandbox, but it is one where you are cautioned from building a tower, and instead are told to stick to huts... because you will be robbed of it and see it destroyed by others. So please build only huts and learn to accept losing them.

Don't you dare become a Trader with valuable cargo.. Don't you dare go Mine for better Ore. Don't you dare run high end missions.

So what is there to do in EVE people ask? If I cannot do all the things the game tells me I can do what is the purpose of playing? How can I do the so called Careers when I am told not to advance past a certain point in them?

For reference Rule #1



I played the games that EVE got its inspiration from, the old school sandbox MMORPG's with loss and all. But there is a fundamental difference between them and EVE. They made sure that Criminal Behaviour did not go unpunished, and also made Safe social Hubs. Social behaviour and interaction was encouraged.

There was another Golden rule in them, "You are held accountable for choosing to be Evil be warned and prepared". You went perma red lost access to social Hubs (cities etc), and you led a life in lawlessness, and utter danger as you were also constantly hunted by those defending the weak and innocent. Few kills is all it took. And you could not hide behind game mechanics and weak Criminal and Punishment systems. In Eve the justice system is an utter Joke. The punishment is laughable. There are "Pirates" who kill victims daily turn around and buy back their Security status. There is no accountability and no risk.

Education of Golden rules goes only so far. After a point we are all limited by the tools at our disposal. We cannot arm a Venture enough to repel a criminal attack nor even a barge.

Learning of the rules means realising, that you simply are not going to mine in Low sec. And that is a constraint in game play. Learning the rules means realising that yes people are out to get you in EVE, it is just a reality, and we all have experienced it, because its mechanics permit it.

The problem with EVE is not that it permits one to be a villain. The problem with EVE is that there is no accountability for being a villain.

It encourages thuggery and villainy and punishes innocence and honesty. And as long as it does, it will be what it always has been and not more.

Leaving aside the latest round of "make EVE like every other MMO and surely subscriber numbers will rise because reasons", I'd like to know why Hello Kitty Online doesn't actually exist. I'd play it, so based on extensive market research (myself), it would be a roaring success.