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Alphas and F2P Have Failed
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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#281 - 2017-03-14 21:13:50 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Okay, let me try again and more simply: that gap...that intimidation is largely in your head. Every player should be playing the game to have fun for himself, not worrying if some other player is somehow having more fun. If you do come into conflict with an older player the context matters a great deal. If a 4 month old player catches my "8 year old" industrial character in an industrial ship...I'm boned even though that character of mine may have 10x the SP. A player who has 10+ years who runs into a gate camp with 5 two year old characters is likely going to be in trouble. This notion of more SP -> win is just wrongheaded thinking.

And yeah, to get 15 million SP "fast" is going to cost some serious money...that is about a year of standard training. You can pay $10.95/month and do it the old fashion way or you can pay near 2x and do it fast. Everything comes with a tradeoff.

Oh, and another thing. Early on I thought like you: more SP and I'll be able to defeat other players. But I quickly found out that getting the SP to get into a specific ship was not a "cure all". Sure I could then get in to a battleship, but then you find out that it sucks against small fast moving ships and that you can die to a surprisingly small number of those small fast moving ships in certain instances. So there is a new player, he doesn't want to wait, he plunks down $400 pumps in 15 million SP goes out in some spiffy ship because now he is a bad ass and dies to people in not so spiffy ships who set up a nice gate camp in LS or NS or wherever. Now how does he feel about that $400 expenditure?


You're trying to say that perception of the gap shouldn't matter. And perhaps it shouldn't... but it's silly to think it doesn't exist. And that perception does increase the difficulty of attracting new subs.

And it's simplistic to narrow down what I was saying to just "SP". It's about overall development in the game. One of the great things about EVE is how it involves long term planning and very little comes easy.

And one of the things that keeps new players away is the fact the game involves long term planning and very little comes easy... but many others have already gotten there because the game is 15 years old.

I think Eve is an awesome game. But if CCP created a new server that started from scratch... I'd abandon my 40m sp main and be there in a heartbeat. And I think many more than you'd expect would do the same. Many of us are okay with the fact we have some deficits because we started later (no T2 BPO's, 100m skill point differentials, 100billion isk totals, hours of research on BP's). The game is good enough and enjoyable enough that we can accept that.

But a large number of us would also still choose to start over from an even spot if given the opportunity.


Your argument does not go away with the new server. There will always be early adopters who will have these awful advantages you are speaking of. In a couple of years, you'll have those who made the switch and are now 2 years along and people starting 2 years from today would be back saying, "I can't compete." And to be perfectly honest here is what I hear, “It’s not fair!” And there is still going to be the knowledge gap that the players have. Those coming to the new server will do things very differently than those who are starting for the first time. The veterans will be training core skills first the “boring” skills. They’ll know good ways to start making ISK with little upfront costs. They’ll understand the importance of the capacitor and cap warfare whereas newbies won’t. And on and on.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
ApexDynamo
Neurosurgical Reconstruction Centre
#282 - 2017-03-14 21:30:41 UTC
If anything this is how ccp shoulda worked alpha's

1. Cant fly anything bigger then a t1 frigate,

2. cant transfer isk from the alpha to an omega, or contracts

3.Limited Skill point set at 2.5m sp

4.Alpha's are restricted from leaveing highsec

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#283 - 2017-03-14 21:31:33 UTC
ApexDynamo wrote:
If anything this is how ccp shoulda worked alpha's

Let the salt flow...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
ApexDynamo
Neurosurgical Reconstruction Centre
#284 - 2017-03-14 21:33:09 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
ApexDynamo wrote:
If anything this is how ccp shoulda worked alpha's

Let the salt flow...



I despise alpha change with a passion, been playing since 07 with first toon always bought 1 year subs from ccp. alpha is totally being abused and ccp aint makeing much profit from it eathier
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2017-03-14 21:35:26 UTC
ApexDynamo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
ApexDynamo wrote:
If anything this is how ccp shoulda worked alpha's

Let the salt flow...



I despise alpha change with a passion, been playing since 07 with first toon always bought 1 year subs from ccp. alpha is totally being abused and ccp aint makeing much profit from it eathier


i do intend the sub like you.. i think... xD
always and only 1 year sub
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#286 - 2017-03-14 21:36:33 UTC
Electronic Arts likes F2P models...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#287 - 2017-03-14 21:38:07 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Electronic Arts likes F2P models...


are you implying that ccp is on the shopping list of EA?
it's years that it's on that list... Roll
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#288 - 2017-03-14 23:19:50 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
But if you want to make some bank out in the middle of nowhere and rake in all that you want from your efforts, someone can lay a bullet into your brain stem with a sniper rig and take all your stuff.

The difference is that the person who does that in the city is going to be hard pressed to do it again if they get return fire or put in a cage.

If you want to take a ridiculous real world comparison, then do it all the way.

No one is more remote than being in space. Certainly far more remote than the middle of nowhere on Earth where someone might be able to put a bullet in your brain stem (like really...the mentality of carebears).

That doesn't even compare to the remoteness of space in the slightest, because out in space you aren't in Frankfurt, or any other city. You'e in a vacuum (at least one with lots of water in it).

Alternatively, just take the much more reasonable view that this isn't RL, it's just a game. It's fine to shoot someone or be shot at anywhere, because it's just a game.



But the "jollies" of the HTFU and gank crowd is real. Why not take it all the way and make any out of game blog (out of character pointing and laughing at carebears and miners when you wind them up, no more E1, etc) against the rules?

See how that works? BTW I knew you would respond with that. Your type is predictable as usual. I expect Teckos to lose sleep over my idea in the same modus of a scab being irresistible.


The other thing to that comment is its much more reasonable given this is not RL to use the 7,000 pure PvP systems to PvP in. Apart from war decs leave the people who don't want to PvP alone in their 1/7 of the space you have, go play with your capitals, citidels and all the other rewards you get for PvP'ing in those 7,000 systems. The more people that are paying IRL money to play the game the more money CCP gets and the more toys and systems that get added. Since its a game it really shouldn't be bothering people that some choose the carebear life, at least not to the extent it seems to bother some people in this thread, surely this is just a sideline thing you do in your greater life and not your greater life.... I hope.



Well the trend for a while, for a lot of fellows, was to "tune out" of life and live all their lives and drama (with the full compliment of other emotions) through videogames. That trend is coming to an end because RL is getting more interesting, players are realizing that there is more to life no matter how much they try to avoid it, and socjus went a bridge too far trying to invade the last refuge of western civilizations dispossessed men, an incident best known as "Gamergate".

But what we have here is a small plurality of that last bastion of such people, ever more bitterly clinging to 2010, getting ever more zealous in their "doctrines" on how the game should be played, and ever more forgetting that it's only a game. It's as if they had so mastered their life in retreat they don't want to leave it.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Beta Maoye
#289 - 2017-03-15 00:18:14 UTC
Isn't it amazing a game can last for more than 13 years? They are still fixing bugs and rewriting legacy codes that were more than a decade ago. It can't be done without love and passion from the company and players.
Kaybella Hakaari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#290 - 2017-03-15 01:31:49 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Electronic Arts likes F2P models...

I though their thing was $60 game (or $100+ collector's edition) + $60 season pass + whatever cosmetic or booster items they can go whaling with.
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#291 - 2017-03-15 16:11:29 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Electronic Arts likes F2P models...


And here we have it.

This entire thread is tears.

This whole topic is just designed to support the narrative of fail anti-gankers. The whole "CODE. is killing the game so CCP made alphas to fluff up the numbers so they can sell the game."

It's tinfoil, but more than that, it's tears.

Another threadnaught full of tears over the New Order. Lol

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Salvos Rhoska
#292 - 2017-03-15 16:32:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#293 - 2017-03-15 20:15:43 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Electronic Arts likes F2P models...


EA don't like free to play they like money. If subscription was were the money was, they would put subscription on their games. For all the hate they keep getting and random "boycot" on their product, they sure as hell won't go broke any time soon.
Johnno Ormand
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#294 - 2017-03-15 20:16:55 UTC
CCPls fix AFK cloaky camping!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#295 - 2017-03-15 20:17:28 UTC
ApexDynamo wrote:
If anything this is how ccp shoulda worked alpha's

1. Cant fly anything bigger then a t1 frigate,

2. cant transfer isk from the alpha to an omega, or contracts

3.Limited Skill point set at 2.5m sp

4.Alpha's are restricted from leaveing highsec



How the hell do you try a game when you can't do **** in the trial?

He're is a trial of chess but you only play with rooks because :reasons:.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#296 - 2017-03-15 20:43:27 UTC
Johnno Ormand wrote:
CCPls fix AFK cloaky camping!


Wrong thread.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#297 - 2017-03-17 13:31:32 UTC
Rroff wrote:

I can't pretend to have an answer to it and new player retention certainly isn't the only reason for a declining player base - I'm no fan of making highsec significantly safer and nothing is coming to me right now as to how to solve it. One aspect that I know has been a big factor in some of them quitting is the lack of ability to retaliate - I've been asked more than once before, before someone quit, to help them get revenge and I've had to tell them that there is little that they or I can do to meaningfully interdict for instance someone's random alt that is only used purely for catalyst ganking and so on.


Quoting myself here - but on reflection in almost every case (except 1-2) it wasn't (as I'd originally thought) the act of being ganked that turned them away from the game it was the fact that there was usually no meaningful way to extract revenge - even by teaming up with more experienced players.

Only half serious but maybe the act of initiating non-consensual PVP in highsec (excluding as part of a war) should result in that player:

-Unable to leave highsec for the duration of the kill right (maybe with some modification of the kill right duration)
-Ship/pod always stays in space if they log off
-Unable to dock in stations (or kicked out when they log off)
-Have to log at POS or a citadel belonging to the corp they are in (otherwise they'd float in space)

:insert evil smiley:
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#298 - 2017-03-17 13:41:17 UTC
Carebear entitlement is disgusting.

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#299 - 2017-03-17 20:01:34 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Rroff wrote:

I can't pretend to have an answer to it and new player retention certainly isn't the only reason for a declining player base - I'm no fan of making highsec significantly safer and nothing is coming to me right now as to how to solve it. One aspect that I know has been a big factor in some of them quitting is the lack of ability to retaliate - I've been asked more than once before, before someone quit, to help them get revenge and I've had to tell them that there is little that they or I can do to meaningfully interdict for instance someone's random alt that is only used purely for catalyst ganking and so on.


Quoting myself here - but on reflection in almost every case (except 1-2) it wasn't (as I'd originally thought) the act of being ganked that turned them away from the game it was the fact that there was usually no meaningful way to extract revenge - even by teaming up with more experienced players.

Only half serious but maybe the act of initiating non-consensual PVP in highsec (excluding as part of a war) should result in that player:

-Unable to leave highsec for the duration of the kill right (maybe with some modification of the kill right duration)
-Ship/pod always stays in space if they log off
-Unable to dock in stations (or kicked out when they log off)
-Have to log at POS or a citadel belonging to the corp they are in (otherwise they'd float in space)

:insert evil smiley:


Your proposal fails to do what you claim you want. You are asking CCP to do what you can’t or won’t (mostly won't).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#300 - 2017-03-17 21:10:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Teckos Pech wrote:


Your proposal fails to do what you claim you want. You are asking CCP to do what you can’t or won’t (mostly won't).


What are you talking about? though my proposal is mostly not intended seriously it would (with a bit of tweaking and some other changes I didn't go into as it wasn't intended entirely seriously) make real consequences for taking an action - the only people who wouldn't like it are those who just like to kill easy targets with little risk of actual comeback.

EDIT: Don't confuse what I'm saying with something I necessarily want - its more a commentary on what I have observed is one aspect having an impact on a declining player base and reduced uptake of new players compared to the potential - personally I'm quite happy with highsec how it is (not that I play any more) but that is because I know how to navigate those dangers and it adds some interesting elements when you know there is some risk even though if I do say so myself I've become fairly competent at mitigating them.