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Alphas and F2P Have Failed
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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#261 - 2017-03-14 06:35:01 UTC
morion wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Who really cares if some guy in high has every ship in the game filled with purples in his hanger (and a trillion isk in his wallet. All that means is higher prices in high sec) which is what null needs to create its own industry.


a trillion isk in there wallet that is "not" in circulation results in "lower prices"

A model built of "door nobs" having a hand full of purple loot and buckets of isk only spells deflation.

I'm moor Stick approach to easy logistics to incentivize / force null industry.

Coupled with "not passive" >low yield< high security moon mining.


Somebody might want to clue in Infinity what CCP Quant means by active ISK delta. It is why the money supply is actually shrinking. And when you look at the various price indices they are declining. And keep in mind that CCP Quant is, unfortunately, using a chained Laspeyres index which, if anything, has an upwards bias as a measure of inflation. It would be better if CCP Quant were to switch to a superlative index.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Blyds Duna
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#262 - 2017-03-14 07:40:36 UTC
I just started to read this Discussion and i skiped a few pages ( i just came from work a bit tiered etc. i promise to read all 14 pages in total later after a good sleep), let me introduce my self a bit so you know where i am coming from, i played eve a few years ago, long long time ago, at the time Band of Brothers was a major issue the, some may know some haven't a bloody clue, i played on one of my brothers alt account and helped him with L4-5 missions. and at some point he stoped playing due to money or time. i came back 2-3 ears played from now 2-3 months i was at a university then so ya time and money for me to, cam back now. I played a lot of games most of them free online, a few games i paid for random stuff in the games shops, most of this games died or they have good content that make people play, EVE, our PRIDE and JOY is a complicated game, more or less depending on the person, I came back NOT AS A ALPHA but as a SUB because EVE is worth every cent for me, but that dosen't mean its for every one. And in this time and age that we are now is a free for all fun fest of good free to play games that have it going for them due to better graphics, story's, lore etc you name it, so dose EVE and OMG look at the EVE history WTF did i miss, i feel ashamed o saying this to all you guys that played it for far longer them me but what to i read: CCP THIS, CCP THAT, THEY SUCK, EVE IS DEAD etc.

One thing that EVE has more the any MMORPG on this fuking earth, IS THE PLAYERS HISTORY, YOUR HISTORY.

Can you not lift a finger and help. It's not just CCP's time and money any more, It's yours too, It's gone be mine too.

Heres what i think wood be a good idia, US, the Players that lived the Glory days of Eve rbing to Light the JOY and the Happiness that CCP has so long given us in the this Game. Invite them in your corporations, make so they have a lot of fun that not that they will feel compelled but more like the will beg CCP with SUB's to make EVE go to a higher level of game play.

So how about it, are you willing to do something as a Proud player of this Wonderful, Complex, Captivating game. or are you going to stay there and ***** about it.

Sorry for my vulgarity.
Acher0n Hades
Queens of the Drone Age
#263 - 2017-03-14 10:35:20 UTC
Sun is shining, the weather is sweet
Make you want to move your dancing feet

No more spaceships, here I am
Want you to know ya, can you understand?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#264 - 2017-03-14 10:54:25 UTC
morion wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Who really cares if some guy in high has every ship in the game filled with purples in his hanger (and a trillion isk in his wallet. All that means is higher prices in high sec) which is what null needs to create its own industry.


a trillion isk in there wallet that is "not" in circulation results in "lower prices"

A model built of "door nobs" having a hand full of purple loot and buckets of isk only spells deflation.

I'm moor Stick approach to easy logistics to incentivize / force null industry.

Coupled with "not passive" >low yield< high security moon mining.

You assume they're not buying things like injectors, skins, aurum and anything else that carebears would be buying with that trillion. Carebears buy it all they're much bigger spenders then PvPrs in terms of novelty items.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jasmine Deer
Perkone
Caldari State
#265 - 2017-03-14 11:14:50 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

I know which group will whinge the loudest about all that...as always, the Carebears.


The most copious whinging if measured in terms of number of posts or words written in those posts is attributable to people whinging about whinging carebears.

Now I have to go back to the top of the page and see if I can make sense of that "Make Eve Great Again" post.
ApexDynamo
Neurosurgical Reconstruction Centre
#266 - 2017-03-14 11:56:15 UTC
If anything ccp should bring back the old torp effects those were pretty cool i liked those :)
Salvos Rhoska
#267 - 2017-03-14 12:25:56 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

I know which group will whinge the loudest about all that...as always, the Carebears.


Shae always conveniently forgets Nullbears.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
lilol' me
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#268 - 2017-03-14 12:40:00 UTC
Blyds Duna wrote:
I just started to read this Discussion and i skiped a few pages ( i just came from work a bit tiered etc. i promise to read all 14 pages in total later after a good sleep), let me introduce my self a bit so you know where i am coming from, i played eve a few years ago, long long time ago, at the time Band of Brothers was a major issue the, some may know some haven't a bloody clue, i played on one of my brothers alt account and helped him with L4-5 missions. and at some point he stoped playing due to money or time. i came back 2-3 ears played from now 2-3 months i was at a university then so ya time and money for me to, cam back now. I played a lot of games most of them free online, a few games i paid for random stuff in the games shops, most of this games died or they have good content that make people play, EVE, our PRIDE and JOY is a complicated game, more or less depending on the person, I came back NOT AS A ALPHA but as a SUB because EVE is worth every cent for me, but that dosen't mean its for every one. And in this time and age that we are now is a free for all fun fest of good free to play games that have it going for them due to better graphics, story's, lore etc you name it, so dose EVE and OMG look at the EVE history WTF did i miss, i feel ashamed o saying this to all you guys that played it for far longer them me but what to i read: CCP THIS, CCP THAT, THEY SUCK, EVE IS DEAD etc.

One thing that EVE has more the any MMORPG on this fuking earth, IS THE PLAYERS HISTORY, YOUR HISTORY.

Can you not lift a finger and help. It's not just CCP's time and money any more, It's yours too, It's gone be mine too.

Heres what i think wood be a good idia, US, the Players that lived the Glory days of Eve rbing to Light the JOY and the Happiness that CCP has so long given us in the this Game. Invite them in your corporations, make so they have a lot of fun that not that they will feel compelled but more like the will beg CCP with SUB's to make EVE go to a higher level of game play.

So how about it, are you willing to do something as a Proud player of this Wonderful, Complex, Captivating game. or are you going to stay there and ***** about it.

Sorry for my vulgarity.



so whats your point?
Salvos Rhoska
#269 - 2017-03-14 12:47:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
lilol' me wrote:
so whats your point?

If I may attempt a translation.

I think he wants there to be an aire of excitement, enthusiasm and encouragement in and about EVE as he remembers being the case once upon a time.

Perhaps also that we focus more on what we can do as players, with and against each other, rather than what CCP can do, does or hasnt done.

He loves EVE, and is worried it is dying.
Not because of CCP, but because of us.

He is calling out a challenge to us all, especially Vets, to not forget why we love EVE.
And for each of us to contribute to keeping that old flame alive, for ourselves and each other.


On my part I would quote an old friend of mine in addition to Bylds' message:

"Dont leave love lonely. It dies then."

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#270 - 2017-03-14 13:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Scialt
Lol... my reply must have taken to long and all I ended up doing was quoting the original post. I'll try again later.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#271 - 2017-03-14 13:12:20 UTC
I've thoroughly enjoyed this discussion (even if it's ventured off-track in a few areas).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Verlyn
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#272 - 2017-03-14 14:37:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Verlyn
lilol' me wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Despite the initial surge in new Alpha players, active player numbers on Tranquility are now almost back to where they were prior to Ascension. There is nothing earth shattering on the horizon and CCP has fired all barrels (SKINs, skill extractors/injectors and F2P). To-date Alphas have't really contributed more than reducing mineral prices, serving as cannon fodder in null fleets and continued thread requests for "moar".

Numbers don't lie so it will be interesting to see how CCP spins this (if they even try to spin it). I'm not sure if the free 30-day trial that was originally in-place was any worse than the current F2P model. One advantage of the free trial is that it gave you unlimited access to the game for a month - which was more than enough time to make a determination.

Rather than continuing to gimp the "Alpha experience" CCP should be looking for ways to incentivize players to subscribe and become Omegas. So here are a few suggestions in no particular order (donning my asbestos suit):

* Remove all the current skill and module restrictions from Alphas save one: reduced skill training time.
* Limit Alphas to high-sec only. No venturing into low-sec, null-sec or wormhole space.
* Move L4 agents, Incursions and ice belts to low-sec. I was vehemently opposed to these ideas originally, but have gradually warmed to the concept (even though it means my own style of play will have to adapt and evolve). In combination with banning the transit and operatipn of supers, this might actually largely fix low-sec.
* Extend a Premium Insurance option to Omegas to cover T2, T3 and Faction ship hulls and ease the transition to low-sec.
* Introduce a new Implant Extractor for Aurum that can only be utilized by Omega characters (use extracts all implants in a clone or corpse).

Comments welcome - discussion appreciated - even flames tolerated.


because the problem isnt free to play its the gameplay itself but ccp just cant and wont and refuse to see it. I wonder how much actual User Research CCP does? and I dont mean listening to the CSM who dont even talk to the players. and I dont mean getting feedback on forums which is mostly vets trying to secure their game, I mean actually get out and speak to players.

for me ill always say these things are problems

Scamming - big problem
Ganking - big problem
Risk vs Reward - CCP have nerfed reward its pathetic. I mean you do a lvl 3 mission and you get literally not much for your efforts
Immersion - the game can be terribly boring, missions are boring, pvp well isnt exactly exciting, there is no life in eve, you only ever see someone at a station or at a gate really, there is nothing in between. Citadels help a little on that but i want to see more life happening.

I would love to see more actual aliens, instead of humanoids. NPCs are just things, there is no reality to them. The NPE was getting somewhere needs to be implemented into missions.

The fact that old alliances have control of everything and always will. Until CCP gives the same opportunities to every new player then nothing will change. There is no way for example that a new person or group will ever get that r64 moon ever. There is no way they will get 0.0 space unless they rent it and pay billions. Eve is controlled by the big entities now.

I honestly believe eve needs another or a few new instances because of this. Some will disagree but I strongly believe it needs it, to give others a chance of the same things.

Recruitment is impossible now, there are literally hundreds of corps recruiting for a small amount of people. which usually go to the big alliances again. Theres a pattern here..... Everything for the new person is consumed by the old of which they can never have. So whats the point playing...



True Sci-Fi environment, true persistent sandbox universe, spaceships, and Quafe.

I dont know about you but these motivations will sure keep me going for the next 5 years or so, at least, and beyond that well, nothing lasts forever.

No video game in history has come this close to creating a universe where you can think 5 years down the line with it.
Salvos Rhoska
#273 - 2017-03-14 14:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Verlyn wrote:
No video game in history has come this close to creating a universe where you can think 5 years down the line with it.

Ultima Online did, and still does.

The 90s, man. Cut too short by the turn of the century, and all the crap since.

Gaming, despite its increased popularity, is ever since in decline in quality.
We really lost something crucial back then.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#274 - 2017-03-14 16:29:41 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Scialt wrote:


The problem Eve has with subscriptions is the same problem many games have.... the age.

This has nothing to do with graphics or anything like that... it's how MMO's mature.

When a game starts, people are joining as they learn about it. It often starts slow and then gets bigger and bigger as people hear about a "cool new game".


Actually, what you are describing is true of many products, this pattern has a name: Bass Diffusion.

At first the growth is exponential, then it tapers off to be logarithmic. The problem is that not only has growth tapered off people have left. As to why they have left is open to much speculation. I am in the camp of "people have left because CCP has been making the game less dangerous, less interesting." Not sure what the other side's argument is since they really haven't articulated one. Instead they argue the future of the game is in getting people who are not into PvP to play the game and drastically change the game to suit these new potential customers.

Quote:
Then, people start reaching the "end game". I know... people say "eve has no end game"... well there are "end ships". I remember what a big deal the first Titans were (and the first Titan kill). When people reach the end-game (or start getting close in the case of skills and ships for EVE) the developers have to start adding content for the end game. In other games it's raising the level cap and pushing the end game further out (making what was the end game now a "mid game" place). In EVE it's adding new ships and skills... from T2's to Titans to T3's. Eventually the gap gets so big it intimidates new players... and this starts the decline in this type of game.


I tend to discount the skill gap argument. Yes, I have alot of SP. But whenever I am in a given ship the SP that apply to that ship and the modules are all that matter. And those SP might be 10-15 million SP. Which is still alot, but it is not a giant gap when comparing my 146 million SP to some other guys 26 million SP.

Quote:
Now Eve has actually handled this better than most games I've seen (which is why it still is around)... but it's still there. You want to be a Titan Pilot? Train for 3-4 years or spend a LOT of money on skill injectors.


Not only do SP extractors/injectors allow for players to catch up who really want too, it also creates an SP sink reducing the over all pool of SP in the game.

Quote:
I'm not saying this is bad... it's just the lifecycle of a MMORPG. All of them reward those who've been active for a long time. But that eventually creates a gap that tends to make it tough to get new players. I'm not sure there's a whole lot more that can be done. I think the unlimited trial setup has brought some players who left for a time back (like myself). But no amount of "new player benefits" is going to erase the fact that many toons have 10-15 years of training and asset accumulation on them. There are a large number of people who don't want to jump on board with a game when they feel like they're that far "behind".


First off many of those players with 10+ years of time in game aren't playing anymore. If one decides, "I'm not going to play because I can never catch that tiny fraction who are still playing and have been for a long time..." well I'm thinking they wouldn't stay anyways. Further, with SP extractors/injectors new players can close that SP gap faster if they want too and have the RL ISK. Worrying that some player with 200+ million SP is going to come across you and beat you is like worrying about running into a grizzly bear in Time's Square. And if you really think it might be likely, grabe 4-5 friends and bone him.


Look... all games have a huge "gap" feeling between those joining later in the game and those joining earlier. I felt that in 2008 and I can't imagine how much more people feel it today. It's not as bad as other games, but it's foolish to think that factor doesn't exist. That feeling of being behind is a deterrent to new players and it increases as the age of existing players (and their wealth and ability) increase.

With other games... there are some options. If you keep the gap between start and end-game easy to traverse, new players aren't as intimidated by it. Of course... old players tend to get bored and leave which isn't ideal either. Eve is the opposite... it's tough to get new players but old players build up a lot of equity in the game. Eve does better bringing subscribers back (like me) than getting truly brand new players because of that fact.... I've already got some equity in the game and so I get to come back to that equity.

Eve is a single server though... and that gap is intimidating. Some people will be okay with it... but the number of people willing to join in a pay to play game and make up a 10 year perceived deficit is going to be small... and get smaller and smaller as time passes. Yes... you could spend a few hundred dollars to catch up using injectors... but that's not realistic. You could also try to earn isk to pay for the injectors... but new players don't earn isk as quickly as those who are already trained up. I could grind missions or anomalies for 10 hours and get a skill injector... but the guy running level 1 or 2 mission? Yeah... it's going to take him a lot longer.

Let's say you feel like 15 million sp added to where you start are needed to "catch up" to the point you're able to be on par with an experienced player. That's over 400 dollars worth of plex to pay for those injectors... and that's still short of the 26 million sp you suggest would put them at a level to make no difference. That's an intimidating gap for a new player.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#275 - 2017-03-14 16:35:30 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Verlyn wrote:
No video game in history has come this close to creating a universe where you can think 5 years down the line with it.

Ultima Online did, and still does.

The 90s, man. Cut too short by the turn of the century, and all the crap since.

Gaming, despite its increased popularity, is ever since in decline in quality.
We really lost something crucial back then.


I don't really remember that in UO... but I stopped playing after about a year and a half. Still have that cloth map that came with the game around somewhere.
Salvos Rhoska
#276 - 2017-03-14 17:00:54 UTC
Scialt wrote:
I don't really remember that in UO... but I stopped playing after about a year and a half. Still have that cloth map that came with the game around somewhere.


You ofc couldnt just afk wait for a "Titan" toon, and you had to actively grind to raise skills.
But many of us had 5 years plans regarding where and what we wanted to be.
Mostly regarding building communities.

Had it not been for the Trammel/Felucca split...

That taught me that PvP must never be separated from PvE.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#277 - 2017-03-14 18:18:51 UTC
Scialt wrote:


Look... all games have a huge "gap" feeling between those joining later in the game and those joining earlier. I felt that in 2008 and I can't imagine how much more people feel it today. It's not as bad as other games, but it's foolish to think that factor doesn't exist. That feeling of being behind is a deterrent to new players and it increases as the age of existing players (and their wealth and ability) increase.

With other games... there are some options. If you keep the gap between start and end-game easy to traverse, new players aren't as intimidated by it. Of course... old players tend to get bored and leave which isn't ideal either. Eve is the opposite... it's tough to get new players but old players build up a lot of equity in the game. Eve does better bringing subscribers back (like me) than getting truly brand new players because of that fact.... I've already got some equity in the game and so I get to come back to that equity.

Eve is a single server though... and that gap is intimidating. Some people will be okay with it... but the number of people willing to join in a pay to play game and make up a 10 year perceived deficit is going to be small... and get smaller and smaller as time passes. Yes... you could spend a few hundred dollars to catch up using injectors... but that's not realistic. You could also try to earn isk to pay for the injectors... but new players don't earn isk as quickly as those who are already trained up. I could grind missions or anomalies for 10 hours and get a skill injector... but the guy running level 1 or 2 mission? Yeah... it's going to take him a lot longer.

Let's say you feel like 15 million sp added to where you start are needed to "catch up" to the point you're able to be on par with an experienced player. That's over 400 dollars worth of plex to pay for those injectors... and that's still short of the 26 million sp you suggest would put them at a level to make no difference. That's an intimidating gap for a new player.


Okay, let me try again and more simply: that gap...that intimidation is largely in your head. Every player should be playing the game to have fun for himself, not worrying if some other player is somehow having more fun. If you do come into conflict with an older player the context matters a great deal. If a 4 month old player catches my "8 year old" industrial character in an industrial ship...I'm boned even though that character of mine may have 10x the SP. A player who has 10+ years who runs into a gate camp with 5 two year old characters is likely going to be in trouble. This notion of more SP -> win is just wrongheaded thinking.

And yeah, to get 15 million SP "fast" is going to cost some serious money...that is about a year of standard training. You can pay $10.95/month and do it the old fashion way or you can pay near 2x and do it fast. Everything comes with a tradeoff.

Oh, and another thing. Early on I thought like you: more SP and I'll be able to defeat other players. But I quickly found out that getting the SP to get into a specific ship was not a "cure all". Sure I could then get in to a battleship, but then you find out that it sucks against small fast moving ships and that you can die to a surprisingly small number of those small fast moving ships in certain instances. So there is a new player, he doesn't want to wait, he plunks down $400 pumps in 15 million SP goes out in some spiffy ship because now he is a bad ass and dies to people in not so spiffy ships who set up a nice gate camp in LS or NS or wherever. Now how does he feel about that $400 expenditure?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#278 - 2017-03-14 19:22:59 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Okay, let me try again and more simply: that gap...that intimidation is largely in your head. Every player should be playing the game to have fun for himself, not worrying if some other player is somehow having more fun. If you do come into conflict with an older player the context matters a great deal. If a 4 month old player catches my "8 year old" industrial character in an industrial ship...I'm boned even though that character of mine may have 10x the SP. A player who has 10+ years who runs into a gate camp with 5 two year old characters is likely going to be in trouble. This notion of more SP -> win is just wrongheaded thinking.

And yeah, to get 15 million SP "fast" is going to cost some serious money...that is about a year of standard training. You can pay $10.95/month and do it the old fashion way or you can pay near 2x and do it fast. Everything comes with a tradeoff.

Oh, and another thing. Early on I thought like you: more SP and I'll be able to defeat other players. But I quickly found out that getting the SP to get into a specific ship was not a "cure all". Sure I could then get in to a battleship, but then you find out that it sucks against small fast moving ships and that you can die to a surprisingly small number of those small fast moving ships in certain instances. So there is a new player, he doesn't want to wait, he plunks down $400 pumps in 15 million SP goes out in some spiffy ship because now he is a bad ass and dies to people in not so spiffy ships who set up a nice gate camp in LS or NS or wherever. Now how does he feel about that $400 expenditure?


You're trying to say that perception of the gap shouldn't matter. And perhaps it shouldn't... but it's silly to think it doesn't exist. And that perception does increase the difficulty of attracting new subs.

And it's simplistic to narrow down what I was saying to just "SP". It's about overall development in the game. One of the great things about EVE is how it involves long term planning and very little comes easy.

And one of the things that keeps new players away is the fact the game involves long term planning and very little comes easy... but many others have already gotten there because the game is 15 years old.

I think Eve is an awesome game. But if CCP created a new server that started from scratch... I'd abandon my 40m sp main and be there in a heartbeat. And I think many more than you'd expect would do the same. Many of us are okay with the fact we have some deficits because we started later (no T2 BPO's, 100m skill point differentials, 100billion isk totals, hours of research on BP's). The game is good enough and enjoyable enough that we can accept that.

But a large number of us would also still choose to start over from an even spot if given the opportunity.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#279 - 2017-03-14 19:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

I know which group will whinge the loudest about all that...as always, the Carebears.


Shae always conveniently forgets Nullbears.

What? Nullbears are carebears you fool. It's right in the name.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#280 - 2017-03-14 19:35:00 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scialt wrote:
I don't really remember that in UO... but I stopped playing after about a year and a half. Still have that cloth map that came with the game around somewhere.


You ofc couldnt just afk wait for a "Titan" toon, and you had to actively grind to raise skills.
But many of us had 5 years plans regarding where and what we wanted to be.
Mostly regarding building communities.

Had it not been for the Trammel/Felucca split...

That taught me that PvP must never be separated from PvE.


Back when I played there was a set maximum on total skill points and you could get there relatively quickly. The problems I remember having was trying to keep the right 7 skills maxed and not accidentally lowering them when you didn't want to. We're getting way off topic though.