These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Alphas and F2P Have Failed
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#41 - 2017-03-10 20:50:58 UTC
I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too.

For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power.

CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec.

Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc).

They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity(the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be.

There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you......
Cade Windstalker
#42 - 2017-03-10 21:01:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too.

For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power.

CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec.

Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc).

They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity(the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be.

There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you......



I don't really agree with a lot of this...

The basic claim here is that Eve has lost a substantial amount of its challenge and complexity, but the vast majority of examples you can give here are either examples of "player VS UI" or just frustrating mistakes that don't really have much impact beyond wasting player time.

IMO Eve is a better game if the bad decisions a player makes are actual bad decisions and not the consequence of a UI induced error. For example Safeties haven't stopped people from committing a stupid mistake and getting exploded for it. I've personally witnessed several examples of people with their safeties set to red forgetting they were in High Sec and shooting someone they'd just been chasing through Low, and that's just the ones that immediately come to mind.

I've also spent a good chunk of my Eve career helping and guiding New Players, and I can say with some certainty that an initial lack of direction is the number one reason people lose interest in the game. If I had 50mil for every time I've seen someone say "so I did the Career agents, now what?" I'd be able to buy enough PLEX to leave my account to my Grandchildren.

It's not that these players are bad, or uncreative, they just honestly don't know enough about the game to have a feel for what they should be doing in it, and floundering around isn't a ton of fun. Mostly these players' questions have been answered by other players who have pointed them at player-made guides and resources to get them over this wall, but only a tiny fraction of people who really would likely quite like this game and do well in it actually end up in contact with resources like that or find someone who can explain things in a way that gets them moving on into a part of Eve they like.

I think a lot of older players view the "Golden Age" as the days of zero 'hand holding' is just because that's the period they started in and played through, and everything seems better with enough time behind it. After all you don't remember the frustration of accidentally blowing yourself up and raging at the UI for it, you just remember that it happened and kinda laugh at it. By definition the players that made it through those times were fine with the issues the game had back then, but that doesn't mean that they aren't issues or that rounding off the sharp edges on the UI is a bad thing.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#43 - 2017-03-10 21:02:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Well Jenn, I can't disagree with most of what you're saying.
But active player numbers are still spiralling into the drain...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Salvos Rhoska
#44 - 2017-03-10 21:18:53 UTC
I recently tried the NPE "tutorial".

The bizarre thing about it was though its very good, once its over, EVE still (ofc) kicks you in the balls and head.

The NPE is almost TOO good, in that it creates the illusion this game is guided/formatted like other MMOs.

Suddenly when Aura disappears, and you are dropped into the EVE reality, from an even more false sense of safety than before.

It reminds me of a nature documentary where ducks had chosen a hollow high up in a tree as a nest, rather than down by the water as usual. When the chicks came of age, the mother flew out and waited on the forest floor far below.

The chicks, despondent, jumped from that high, safe hole, their useless wings flapping pointlessly, fortunately to be saved from death by a thick leaf coverage below.

Then mother and ducklings begin the perilous journey to water.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Marcus Heth
#45 - 2017-03-10 21:27:18 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too.

For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power.

CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec.

Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc).

They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity(the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be.

There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you......


This needs repeating. EVE did well because it wasn't mainstream, not in spite of it. Trying to make it more mainstream/safe/more hand holding/less harsh only hurts it.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#46 - 2017-03-10 21:29:35 UTC
You realize that its 6 months since Ascension right? 6 months is the exact time to max out a character to that magical 5mil SP farming amount and so the need to log in daily is gone as a plex is introduced to the lifecycle of the account and farming commences and the need to log in drops to once a month....Roll

That those who have tried for the new content, like ALL the other patches before, have come and gone.

That those that tried for the first time because its free have either left or the chosen few have stayed.


Nope its about the same as almost every big patch Ive seen since 03.RollTwisted

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#47 - 2017-03-10 21:32:02 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
They can still make WIS and landing on planets like they planned before. Lol



OT: Wonderful name and image fitting to the name there. Good job.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2017-03-10 21:34:13 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I recently tried the NPE "tutorial".

The bizarre thing about it was though its very good, once its over, EVE still (ofc) kicks you in the balls and head.

The NPE is almost TOO good, in that it creates the illusion this game is guided/formatted like other MMOs.

Suddenly when Aura disappears, and you are dropped into the EVE reality, from an even more false sense of safety than before.

It reminds me of a nature documentary where ducks had chosen a hollow high up in a tree as a nest, rather than down by the water as usual. When the chicks came of age, the mother flew out and waited on the forest floor far below.

The chicks, despondent, jumped from that high, safe hole, their useless wings flapping pointlessly, fortunately to be saved from death by a thick leaf coverage below.

Then mother and ducklings begin the perilous journey to water.


SO if there are no leaves on the ground, the player is automatically lost as potential revenue because he does not understand WTF?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#49 - 2017-03-10 21:35:16 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too.

For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power.

CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec.

Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc).

They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity(the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be.

There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you......




Well here I am agreeing with JennAsnide with something and now per the rules of all that is holy and decent I must now go kill myself. But I at least get to find a creative and fun way to do it - per the rules. I'm going to need a helmet, and bucket of jelly, and a brothel.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#50 - 2017-03-10 21:37:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
30% revenue increase in 2016:

http://www.mmogames.com/gamenews/eve-online-propels-ccp-games-profits/

EVE nominated for a BAFTA in 2017 as best evolving game:

http://www.bafta.org/games/games-awards-nominees-2017#evolving-game

Not bad for a failure.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#51 - 2017-03-10 21:38:22 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too.

For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power.

CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec.

Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc).

They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity(the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be.

There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you......




Well here I am agreeing with JennAsnide with something and now per the rules of all that is holy and decent I must now go kill myself. But I at least get to find a creative and fun way to do it - per the rules. I'm going to need a helmet, and bucket of jelly, and a brothel.

Your my boy blue!!

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2017-03-10 21:53:30 UTC
lilol' me wrote:


Scamming - big problem
Ganking - big problem
Risk vs Reward - CCP have nerfed reward its pathetic. I mean you do a lvl 3 mission and you get literally not much for your efforts
Immersion - the game can be terribly boring, missions are boring, pvp well isnt exactly exciting, there is no life in eve, you only ever see someone at a station or at a gate really, there is nothing in between. Citadels help a little on that but i want to see more life happening.

I would love to see more actual aliens, instead of humanoids. NPCs are just things, there is no reality to them. The NPE was getting somewhere needs to be implemented into missions.

The fact that old alliances have control of everything and always will. Until CCP gives the same opportunities to every new player then nothing will change. There is no way for example that a new person or group will ever get that r64 moon ever. There is no way they will get 0.0 space unless they rent it and pay billions. Eve is controlled by the big entities now.

I honestly believe eve needs another or a few new instances because of this. Some will disagree but I strongly believe it needs it, to give others a chance of the same things.

Recruitment is impossible now, there are literally hundreds of corps recruiting for a small amount of people. which usually go to the big alliances again. Theres a pattern here..... Everything for the new person is consumed by the old of which they can never have. So whats the point playing...



Ahh look an ignorant player speaking about things he knows nothing about.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#53 - 2017-03-10 21:54:11 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too.

For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power.

CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec.

Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc).

They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity(the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be.

There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you......




Well here I am agreeing with JennAsnide with something and now per the rules of all that is holy and decent I must now go kill myself. But I at least get to find a creative and fun way to do it - per the rules. I'm going to need a helmet, and bucket of jelly, and a brothel.


Don't feel bad, I just clicked like on a Salvos Rhoska post. What the **** is happening here, and why are my feet cold?
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2017-03-10 21:58:41 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
30% revenue increase in 2016:

http://www.mmogames.com/gamenews/eve-online-propels-ccp-games-profits/

EVE nominated for a BAFTA in 2017 as best evolving game:

http://www.bafta.org/games/games-awards-nominees-2017#evolving-game

Not bad for a failure.


lel

more income doesn't mean better game Cool
it just means that CCP found a better way to milk players Cool

as a customer i call that a failure.
as a company i call that success.

#PointOfViews
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
#55 - 2017-03-10 22:14:45 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

The core game design would make such approach really bad. What would you sell anyway?



/Me points at skins, but then just... well everything! U want a carrier, just buy one in the market with real moneys.

Not like u can't do it atm anyways, now u just have to buy plex, sell plex, buy ship/item/skill/whatever required.

Sounds horrible right? yeah, when CCP introduced plex, I personally certainly thought: 'well there goes the neighbourhood' and tbfh i was right! Too many douches who just enjoy getting cheap kills on unsuspecting noobs.

And no, nobody buthurt me recently, just the venting of a grumpy ol' vet Lol
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#56 - 2017-03-10 22:15:17 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The problem is that null-sec f*cks with every area of space. They antagonize wormholes and low-sec whenever it suits them, unbalance Faction Warfare, exploit high-sec income with alts then gank and burn everything for kicks. POCOs were supposed to generate content but all that happened is null-sec (once again) monopolized it. And what about Citadels in high-sec? That's a null-sec cartel controlling the free market in Perimeter.

As for the funniest hot drop, that had to be the one where I had several carriers (including a Revenant), dreads, a slew of battleships, T3s and other assorted ships dropped on my sole Thanatos. Nothing like overkill or whoring for a killmail...


Ah yes, tears over "blobbing".

You sir, are a caricature of a carebear. A Poe. Gotta be...

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#57 - 2017-03-10 22:22:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Soel Reit wrote:
lel

more income doesn't mean better game Cool
it just means that CCP found a better way to milk players Cool

as a customer i call that a failure.
as a company i call that success.

#PointOfViews

Even customers can see rising revenue and critical acknowledgement as failure.

Such a failure that as a community, we have given them more money. That'll teach them.
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2017-03-10 22:30:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Soel Reit
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Soel Reit wrote:
lel

more income doesn't mean better game Cool
it just means that CCP found a better way to milk players Cool

as a customer i call that a failure.
as a company i call that success.

#PointOfViews

Even customers can see rising revenue and critical acknowledgement as failure.

Such a failure that as a community, we have given them more money. That'll teach them.


you can't teach them lol
the only way would be a community united taking actions... but i mean... Lol let's talk about serious stuff Lol
(like grath-rixxjavix drama Cool )
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2017-03-10 22:36:18 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Cade Windstalker wrote:
It's not all that surprising that numbers are falling around now though. They've fallen in late winter/early spring every year since the massive influx in winter 2009.

Plus we're still a good 5-10k above the monthly average for the six months right before Ascension released.

IMO it's still way too early to declare that Alpha Clones and this F2P experiment have 'failed'

Agree 100%.

This is the nature of the beast called Eve.



DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#60 - 2017-03-10 22:37:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
I think this thread misses the point, and CCP does too.

For years CCP has been following the idea that EVE's problem was "access" ie the game was too complex and the game didn't teach people the basics of playing it. Some of us have been saying for years that these are not important issues, because people are who they are. If a person doesn't like complexity or needs hand holding, no amount of 'help' is going to get them to like EVE, because as soon as the hand holding is done they are gone, and the complexity is one of the things that makes the game have staying power.

CCP followed the 'access' mantra from "easy to learn hard to master" through to skill extraction on up to a Free To play scheme. They attacked some of the complexity (meaning some of the dangers as well as other complications) with things like safety pop ups, safeties and other hand holding features. Now the game by default won't let you make mistakes like undocking without the mission objective in cargo or accidentally jump into high sec.

Add to all the above that CCP DOES NOT advertise to the right people (they advertise to MMO players when EVE is an anti-MMO, they advertise a slow burn game to instant gratification video gamers and MOBA players etc etc).

They aren't reaching the right kind of people, the people who do come are introduced to a hand holding NPE in a game that requires creativity(the reasons why can be found here) and then cut loose into a world that looks nothing like what the NPE or advertising suggests it would be.

There was a reason that EVE's golden age was when it gave your a space ship then said **** you......



Well here I am agreeing with JennAsnide with something and now per the rules of all that is holy and decent I must now go kill myself. But I at least get to find a creative and fun way to do it - per the rules. I'm going to need a helmet, and bucket of jelly, and a brothel.


Don't feel bad, I just clicked like on a Salvos Rhoska post. What the **** is happening here, and why are my feet cold?



Just wait

Bring back DEEEEP Space!