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[March] Rorqual and Mining changes

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Cade Windstalker
#761 - 2017-03-08 03:21:27 UTC
Coelomate Tian wrote:
All you have to do is look at the Delve numbers. I guarantee you GSF isn't producing 20 trillion+++ but only mining 1-2 trillion. Drone mining is bugged, it's not included in the graph, it says so in the graph itself.

You still see a spike, IMO, because more people are doing mining of all kinds since all of the mechanics got changed and it's fresh. Also because people like me bring a few barges with their rorqual(s), since it's very little extra effort/SP required for more isk/hour.


Check the same months from last month's report vs this month's.

I mean there's a spike on the graph when you compare the same months on last month's report and this month's. The bit on the graph that says drone mining is bugged is pointing to a single point where there's a dip in the actual value as opposed to the moving average.

I'm pretty sure this month's MER is including drone mining correctly, considering last month's shows January about half a trillion lower than this month.

The "Produced" value counts final end product value, not the value of the minerals going into it. The "Produced" value is way higher than mined and destroyed as well, not just in Delve but for those graphs for the entire game.

Soko99 wrote:
This shows me how little you know of what you're talking about. Ark and Bistot are still the highest value (lowest amounts in belts too) and spod and crokite are the same price.


Spod is only even with Crokite because there's a Mex shortage and the price of other minerals has dropped. Normally Spod is below the ABCs in value and is likely to return to that value after the Rorqual influx drops off.

My core point remains though, not every rock is going to be that big, the less common ores will tend to have smaller rocks, and even then not every drone will be on the far side of the rock when they return.

Soko99 wrote:
So can you confirm how you expect people to use rorqs?

I know you said earlier that you guys made the yield purposefully high to get people to use it. But I really don't know how you guys could have made such a HUGE mistake as to require it to be nerfed by 25% and then another 55% of that. So either, you guys changed your idea of what you want the rorq to be. OR you guys did it as a cash grab for all those that paid for injectors. In either case. I believe it's a shady practice.


My personal theory is they didn't expect people to drop Carrier/Super/Titan ratting to multibox Rorquals, because historically people have railed against mining as being boring and low value. Unfortunately people took a look at the Rorqual, realized they could multibox a bunch of them as opposed to running 1-2 Supers, and immediately went out and bought Rorquals.

If you check the original feedback thread for the original Rorqual changes the vast majority of the feedback is "OMG no one will ever take one of these out into a belt!" and that was with the old yield and when the drones were estimated at around 500m each.

Given that it's hardly surprising CCP high-balled things.
Coelomate Tian
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#762 - 2017-03-08 03:51:10 UTC
If only 1.6 tirllion isk worth of ore was mined in Delve, I mined close to 4% of all ore mined in Delve in February.

I doubt that very, very much.
Chriss Kross
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#763 - 2017-03-08 04:44:12 UTC
I have to believe that the nerf is not going to fix the problem.

The real issue is the Mexallon bottleneck, the corp my main is in is flipping the belt at least once a day to build supers, yet a lot of our ore is shipped out because all we need is the mex, if it does not have mex then it really is not useful, thus flooding market with ore we do not need.

Nerfing the yield by 25%, adding in more travel time for the drones, increasing the rock size to make the drones orbits bigger to further bloat the travel time, and further increasing distance between rocks will not prevent us from killing the belts and sending ore out.

Fix mexallon so that we can get meet our goals and then we might not repeatedly mine out belts. Hell we might even have time to go and do other things in game than to try to get enough mexallon to keep our supers flowing out in a reasonable time frame.

Do I think the nerf can be avoided? nope, its going to happen I just think in another month or two we will see another nerf of some sort to mining and especially the rorqual because the problem is still not fixed.

I suppose that if you nerf the rorq down to the point where the hulk can out yield it then people will stop using it again but I do not really call that a fix to the problem.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#764 - 2017-03-08 05:13:21 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Spod is only even with Crokite because there's a Mex shortage and the price of other minerals has dropped. Normally Spod is below the ABCs in value and is likely to return to that value after the Rorqual influx drops off.



Speculation is just that.. so don't present it as fact.

Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#765 - 2017-03-08 05:15:31 UTC
Soko99 wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Spod is only even with Crokite because there's a Mex shortage and the price of other minerals has dropped. Normally Spod is below the ABCs in value and is likely to return to that value after the Rorqual influx drops off.



Speculation is just that.. so don't present it as fact.


I mean many scientific facts start as speculation soooo
Cade Windstalker
#766 - 2017-03-08 15:16:28 UTC
Coelomate Tian wrote:
According to the MER, Delve was responsible for 1,658 billion isk worth of mining in February. Could that be true if drone mining data was included?


I'm just going to quote this because I think you make a fairly convincing argument for drone data not being included in the per-region numbers.

That said, how else do you explain the discrepancy on the large graph between the February MER and the January one? It's very possible that CCP fixed the numbers for the big graph but either forgot or didn't have time to fix the numbers for the smaller one. Considering we were recently informed those numbers were broken, and no previous graphs that I've checked have any kind of shift like this I can't think of another reasonable explanation.

Further supporting this data-split idea, if you sum up all the regional mining totals you get 21.694 trillion, which when added up and divided by 28 gives an average mining total per day of .77t ISK, which is about where the average was hovering on that graph from January, and well below the displayed average of about 1.7-1.8t per day.

Soko99 wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Spod is only even with Crokite because there's a Mex shortage and the price of other minerals has dropped. Normally Spod is below the ABCs in value and is likely to return to that value after the Rorqual influx drops off.



Speculation is just that.. so don't present it as fact.


What part of "likely" is presenting that as a fact?

Also you keep nit-picking instead of addressing the core point of what I'm saying, which is a bit rude and missing the point entirely.

Chriss Kross wrote:
I have to believe that the nerf is not going to fix the problem.

The real issue is the Mexallon bottleneck, the corp my main is in is flipping the belt at least once a day to build supers, yet a lot of our ore is shipped out because all we need is the mex, if it does not have mex then it really is not useful, thus flooding market with ore we do not need.

Nerfing the yield by 25%, adding in more travel time for the drones, increasing the rock size to make the drones orbits bigger to further bloat the travel time, and further increasing distance between rocks will not prevent us from killing the belts and sending ore out.

Fix mexallon so that we can get meet our goals and then we might not repeatedly mine out belts. Hell we might even have time to go and do other things in game than to try to get enough mexallon to keep our supers flowing out in a reasonable time frame.

Do I think the nerf can be avoided? nope, its going to happen I just think in another month or two we will see another nerf of some sort to mining and especially the rorqual because the problem is still not fixed.

I suppose that if you nerf the rorq down to the point where the hulk can out yield it then people will stop using it again but I do not really call that a fix to the problem.


Take a look at the value mined from the latest MER vs the value destroyed and you'll see why this doesn't work. It's not just the bottleneck, though that is part of what's crashing some minerals harder than others, it's that the overall supply of minerals into the market is out pacing what the game can use.

That's why Mex prices have leveled off and are actually down from last month instead of continuing to shoot higher.

It also assumes that absolutely everyone mining with a Rorqual is doing so 23/7 and clearing out entire ore anoms, which I can tell you anecdotally is not the case. Plenty of people are mining with a relatively small number of Rorquals and swapping anoms when the rock they want is out since the Anom will just despawn in 3 days and they won't have to cycle back around to it before then.
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#767 - 2017-03-08 15:18:50 UTC
For those asking for the Mex' 'bottleneck' to also be solved in Null.....

This would also heavily impact the majority of High Sec mining!

For that's therefore where the additional Mex comes from. It doesn't have to - but it does.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Cade Windstalker
#768 - 2017-03-08 15:39:13 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
For those asking for the Mex' 'bottleneck' to also be solved in Null.....

This would also heavily impact the majority of High Sec mining!

For that's therefore where the additional Mex comes from. It doesn't have to - but it does.


This is just bunk. The total volume of Mex coming out of High Sec isn't great enough to plug the bottleneck, and besides the two best High Sec rocks for Mex also produce a fair amount of Tri and Pyrite or Trit and Isogen respectively.
ISD Chanisa Nemes
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#769 - 2017-03-08 16:02:04 UTC
Removed some off-topic posts

[img]http://i.giphy.com/26FmPR9KSqjRCuJUI.gif[/img]

ISD Chanisa Nemes

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#770 - 2017-03-08 18:15:33 UTC
ISD Chanisa Nemes wrote:
Removed some off-topic posts

[img]http://i.giphy.com/26FmPR9KSqjRCuJUI.gif[/img]

Dear lord the GIF
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#771 - 2017-03-08 18:38:55 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
For those asking for the Mex' 'bottleneck' to also be solved in Null.....

This would also heavily impact the majority of High Sec mining!

For that's therefore where the additional Mex comes from. It doesn't have to - but it does.


I'd be interested in knowing if our industry genius did import the missing Mex because that should technically also crush the HS market who still need it's MEX to produce stuff.
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#772 - 2017-03-08 20:37:11 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:
For those asking for the Mex' 'bottleneck' to also be solved in Null.....

This would also heavily impact the majority of High Sec mining!

For that's therefore where the additional Mex comes from. It doesn't have to - but it does.


I'd be interested in knowing if our industry genius did import the missing Mex because that should technically also crush the HS market who still need it's MEX to produce stuff.


Well - I've imported Mex to sell in Delve! Big smile Let alone for my own use - it's simply more efficient that way.

HS needs Mex too - but that's why all the Miners in HS mine Plag' - and therefore generate extra Mex'.

If NS stopped needing Mex', either as Compressed Plag', or even the refined material itself, then HS mining would once more suffer.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
ISD Chanisa Nemes
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#773 - 2017-03-08 21:18:20 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
ISD Chanisa Nemes wrote:
Removed some off-topic posts

[img]http://i.giphy.com/26FmPR9KSqjRCuJUI.gif[/img]

Dear lord the GIF




I've found that I get a +5 to forum moderation when I post a gif along with my rule statements

ISD Chanisa Nemes

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Cade Windstalker
#774 - 2017-03-08 22:47:23 UTC
ISD Chanisa Nemes wrote:
I've found that I get a +5 to forum moderation when I post a gif along with my rule statements


Your gif game is amazing xD

Please send help, can't stop laughing every time I see that gif LolLolLol

Marcus Tedric wrote:
Well - I've imported Mex to sell in Delve! Big smile Let alone for my own use - it's simply more efficient that way.

HS needs Mex too - but that's why all the Miners in HS mine Plag' - and therefore generate extra Mex'.

If NS stopped needing Mex', either as Compressed Plag', or even the refined material itself, then HS mining would once more suffer.


People in High Sec will mine whatever is most profitable, and the crash in the value of other minerals is hurting High Sec more than the small bump in Mex is helping them.

Case and point, the value of Compressed Viscous Pyroxeres is actually dropping compared to pre-Rorqual changes. Same goes for the other qualities, as well as uncompressed ore. It enjoyed a very brief uptick in value when the Mex bottleneck was first starting to hit but before the general mineral crash started and now it's lost more value than its gained.
Tommy Robotic
Chambers of Shaolin
#775 - 2017-03-08 22:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tommy Robotic
This is obviously getting over-tuned to fix their mistake and is not intended to be a long term solution. ISK is getting devalued which directly effects CCP's bottom line. Those that can fly supers are going to go back to super ratting and those that can't weren't rorqual mining. The little guys that were rorq mining for an hour or two a day are going to be the ones that pay the heaviest price for investing in a decent nullsec income activity.
HarlyQ
harlyq syrokos investment station
#776 - 2017-03-09 07:21:24 UTC
ISD Chanisa Nemes wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
ISD Chanisa Nemes wrote:
Removed some off-topic posts

[img]http://i.giphy.com/26FmPR9KSqjRCuJUI.gif[/img]

Dear lord the GIF




I've found that I get a +5 to forum moderation when I post a gif along with my rule statements

All you need now is a pubbie wave and we are back on reddit.
Huydo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#777 - 2017-03-09 10:34:40 UTC
So Rorq Conten is dead now. FC what do?
http://i.imgur.com/NQm6McI.png

Slumberg
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#778 - 2017-03-09 14:15:06 UTC
Thumbs down to the aesthetic change of larger asteroids. With their current size it's easy to lose Excavators to booshers, but if you're paying attention it's preventable. With this change there will be no counter gameplay to that. There have been plenty rushing to sell off rorqs since the announcemnt, and most of them point to the rock size change above anything else. I guess that will help buoy mineral prices, but there's got to be a better way than having 5-10b worth of totally defenseless drones ambling around an asteroid 15km from you.
Cade Windstalker
#779 - 2017-03-09 16:29:34 UTC
Tommy Robotic wrote:
This is obviously getting over-tuned to fix their mistake and is not intended to be a long term solution. ISK is getting devalued which directly effects CCP's bottom line. Those that can fly supers are going to go back to super ratting and those that can't weren't rorqual mining. The little guys that were rorq mining for an hour or two a day are going to be the ones that pay the heaviest price for investing in a decent nullsec income activity.


Small correction here, ISK is fine and is actually increasing in value as the ISK supply constricts due to people swapping from Carrier ratting and other ISK printing activities to mining. What's dropping in value is ore and minerals.

Slumberg wrote:
Thumbs down to the aesthetic change of larger asteroids. With their current size it's easy to lose Excavators to booshers, but if you're paying attention it's preventable. With this change there will be no counter gameplay to that. There have been plenty rushing to sell off rorqs since the announcemnt, and most of them point to the rock size change above anything else. I guess that will help buoy mineral prices, but there's got to be a better way than having 5-10b worth of totally defenseless drones ambling around an asteroid 15km from you.


Couple points here.

First off, if the sell off continues it's not gonna be even 5b in drones pretty soon.

Second, the larger rocks make it harder to run off with a full flight all at once, and make it more likely that you're going to bump a rock trying to do so, so there's some trade off here. It's not *all* nerf. Plus it gets less worthwhile to run around yoinking drones if they're no longer worth 1.5b each.

Lastly the Rorqual sell off started well before the rock size changes were decided as going in on this patch, it's mostly the drop in value and people wanting to 'cash out' their investment while they can.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#780 - 2017-03-10 00:44:17 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


Small correction here, ISK is fine and is actually increasing in value as the ISK supply constricts due to people swapping from Carrier ratting and other ISK printing activities to mining. What's dropping in value is ore and minerals.



So.. then what's the problem with minerals dropping? If it's not decreasing the value of isk, why was it such a big problem that low end minerals are just that. low end and cheap?

Cade Windstalker wrote:

Couple points here.

First off, if the sell off continues it's not gonna be even 5b in drones pretty soon.

Second, the larger rocks make it harder to run off with a full flight all at once, and make it more likely that you're going to bump a rock trying to do so, so there's some trade off here. It's not *all* nerf. Plus it gets less worthwhile to run around yoinking drones if they're no longer worth 1.5b each.

Lastly the Rorqual sell off started well before the rock size changes were decided as going in on this patch, it's mostly the drop in value and people wanting to 'cash out' their investment while they can.


So because they're now less than 5bil for a flight, thus might not be worth stealing, so it's ok to introduce a mechanic that's not counterable and is completely unnecessary? interesting logic.

Your last point. yeah.. values are dropping because people don't want ot be stuck with something they paid 10bil for only to have it turn into 3bil overnight because of a dumb game change mechanic by CCP. A reasonable expectation