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Machariel or Tengu for level 4 missions
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Nova Bea
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2017-03-01 11:26:26 UTC
Hello pilots,
lets say you have all related skills at V. Which ship would be the your choice for level 4 PvE high sec missions?
Tengu (HAM or HML) or Machariel?
Garrett Osinov
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2017-03-01 12:17:13 UTC
Nova Bea wrote:
Hello pilots,
lets say you have all related skills at V. Which ship would be the your choice for level 4 PvE high sec missions?
Tengu (HAM or HML) or Machariel?


Are you going to run only burners / anomic agents / bases + blitzable missions ? If so then you don't need Machariel at all.

If you are going to run all missions without skipping (which I consider a bit stupid), then get a Machariel.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3 - 2017-03-01 12:30:30 UTC
If you plan to blitz... get a Machariel.
If you plan for full clears... get something else (Marauder).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Wolfgang Jannesen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2017-03-01 13:15:15 UTC
I don't see any reason to use a T3 cruiser in L4 missions, save those for C3 and C4 sites. The Madhariel is a phenomenal ship for L4's.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#5 - 2017-03-01 19:33:37 UTC
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Nova Bea wrote:
Hello pilots,
lets say you have all related skills at V. Which ship would be the your choice for level 4 PvE high sec missions?
Tengu (HAM or HML) or Machariel?


Are you going to run only burners / anomic agents / bases + blitzable missions ? If so then you don't need Machariel at all.

If you are going to run all missions without skipping (which I consider a bit stupid), then get a Machariel.

I want a mach for blitzing mostly for the warp speed.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#6 - 2017-03-01 20:38:21 UTC
As others have said, if you're blitzing then definitely a Machariel - nothing else is even close. But, if you're doing full clears, then neither. They aren't efficient for that kind of work.
Garrett Osinov
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2017-03-01 21:20:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Garrett Osinov
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Nova Bea wrote:
Hello pilots,
lets say you have all related skills at V. Which ship would be the your choice for level 4 PvE high sec missions?
Tengu (HAM or HML) or Machariel?


Are you going to run only burners / anomic agents / bases + blitzable missions ? If so then you don't need Machariel at all.

If you are going to run all missions without skipping (which I consider a bit stupid), then get a Machariel.

I want a mach for blitzing mostly for the warp speed.


Tengu and Machariel has the same warp speed. Tengu is more agile. If we are talking about blitzing + burners. I only do burners / anomic agents + bases. And some missions:

Dread pirate scarlet - done in Garmur / Tengu with MWD / T3 destroyer
Recon - Dramiel
Damsel in distress - Tengu (it is difficult to do this in Machariel, you need a Marauder or Tengu for blitz)
Right hand of Zazmatazz Tengu / Machariel
The Assault - Tengu (Machariel will be scrambled, it is a waiste of time to do it in Mach)
Pot and Kettle 1/5 - Tengu or Machariel
Stop the thief - Tengu / Machariel
Cargo delivery - Dramiel.

Serpentis Base I do in Cerberus (so it is basicaly Tengu skills, I need them anyway). Blood base is done in a Gila (need Caldary cruiser lvl5).

So look at this list of missions and see...what do you realy need. Do you realy want to train BS for 2 missions, where you can have advantage ?

P.s. I am talking about Tengu with 1040+ DPS and 47k range with Rages.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#8 - 2017-03-01 21:54:49 UTC
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Nova Bea wrote:
Hello pilots,
lets say you have all related skills at V. Which ship would be the your choice for level 4 PvE high sec missions?
Tengu (HAM or HML) or Machariel?


Are you going to run only burners / anomic agents / bases + blitzable missions ? If so then you don't need Machariel at all.

If you are going to run all missions without skipping (which I consider a bit stupid), then get a Machariel.

I want a mach for blitzing mostly for the warp speed.


Tengu and Machariel has the same warp speed. Tengu is more agile. If we are talking about blitzing + burners. I only do burners / anomic agents + bases. And some missions:

Dread pirate scarlet - done in Garmur / Tengu with MWD / T3 destroyer
Recon - Dramiel
Damsel in distress - Tengu (it is difficult to do this in Machariel, you need a Marauder or Tengu for blitz)
Right hand of Zazmatazz Tengu / Machariel
The Assault - Tengu (Machariel will be scrambled, it is a waiste of time to do it in Mach)
Pot and Kettle 1/5 - Tengu or Machariel
Stop the thief - Tengu / Machariel
Cargo delivery - Dramiel.

Serpentis Base I do in Cerberus (so it is basicaly Tengu skills, I need them anyway). Blood base is done in a Gila (need Caldary cruiser lvl5).

So look at this list of missions and see...what do you realy need. Do you realy want to train BS for 2 missions, where you can have advantage ?

P.s. I am talking about Tengu with 1040+ DPS and 47k range with Rages.

mach is a super useful ship, regularly in the top 10 on zkill, and easily #1 pvp battleship. Also really good at running the regular non blitz missions thanks to high dps and high maneuverability.

Dread Pirate - Arty mach 1 shots the BC and can get the 5m bounty twice in the same mission plus a +3 implant
Recon - yep use a frig
damsel - decline, I'm thinking a barghest would be best, align out blap structure, mjd onto can warp out.
Right hand - arty mach warp in drop mtu blap zor, other bs, cruiser and station, scoop zor loot, warp out. If the good implant drops you make something like 700m/hr, probably one of the best missions to run. hard to imagine tengu having much of an advantage there with the warp in.
Assault, mach has mjd so it can get right on top of the final group dunno which would be fastest, kinda leaning mach though.
Pot - no idea haven't run it in years
thief - probably not a huge difference, I usually skip it anyways given you only need to kill 2 ships probably warp speed wins.

also lets add Pirate invasion, mach mwd/mjds to the carrier wreck and blaps the spawn, tengu should do alright but I'm thinking mach wins on raw dps.

if you are using a hamtengu I'm guessing you aren't using your rigs for warp speed, although there is also a subsystem option. I am somewhat interesting in running the warp subsystem with warp speed rigs on a tengu

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#9 - 2017-03-01 22:16:46 UTC
This guy ran a pretty interesting EFT comparison between the Mach and Tengu and settled on the Mach as the best. That aligns with my personal experience as well. It could certainly be my skills, fit or piloting, but my blitzing efficiency has always been better in a Mach vs a Tengu.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#10 - 2017-03-02 03:35:11 UTC
Guns (and to a lesser extent, drones) always outperform missiles because they deal instant damage. If you have a 3-second rate of fire you can actually deliver 2 volleys in 3 seconds - which is particularly devastating against smaller ships.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#11 - 2017-03-02 03:38:40 UTC
In my experience, fly what you like best. Both ships are capable but so are others. Since you will be flying your ship a lot, I would suggest you log on the test server and buy both - decide then.

Make your fit on the test server and export your fitting file with all the fits on the list. Log back on the main server and import your fit (you can select which one you want to import) and buy it.

Remember, the fit has to work for you and only you.

Happy ratting!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Wolfgang Jannesen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2017-03-02 13:34:59 UTC
Time-wise alone, it's more worthwhile using a T1 battleship in L4 missions than a T3C
Garrett Osinov
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2017-03-02 15:23:10 UTC
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
Time-wise alone, it's more worthwhile using a T1 battleship in L4 missions than a T3C


M8, can you read what I wrote ? In what missions I listed can T1 BS be more efficient then 1040+ DPS Tengu ?!?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#14 - 2017-03-02 16:22:31 UTC
Garrett Osinov wrote:
M8, can you read what I wrote ? In what missions I listed can T1 BS be more efficient then 1040+ DPS Tengu ?!?

Anything where kinetic isn't the weakest NPC resistance.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#15 - 2017-03-02 18:16:07 UTC
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
Time-wise alone, it's more worthwhile using a T1 battleship in L4 missions than a T3C


M8, can you read what I wrote ? In what missions I listed can T1 BS be more efficient then 1040+ DPS Tengu ?!?



As Chainsaw mentioned above, if you're pulling 1040DPS on your Tengu, then you also aren't running hyperspatial rigs, which means you're hampered by slower warp times than a Mach with similar applied DPS - something that matters when blitzing.

If your skills heavily favor the Tengu, then sure, it might be a superior platform for you and that's what you should fly. But any of the head-to-head runtime comparisons I've seen with similar skill levels consistently seem to favor the Mach. If you can point to actual in-game test results that demonstrate otherwise, I'd be interested in reading them.
stoicfaux
#16 - 2017-03-04 14:55:15 UTC
1040 DPS- Click File -> Preferences and check "Include reload time in DPS". Your DPS is now 968. Not to nitpick or anything. ;-)

Testing is important. I agree that OP needs to provide some mission times for the HAM Tengu. Then we can do a proper comparison.

Warp speed difference shouldn't be a big deal. A Tengu with the Gravitational Capacitor has a warp speed of 4.9 au/s whereas a Mach with 3x T2 warp speed rigs is at 5.7 au/s. Add in warp speed implants and you hit diminishing returns very quickly, i.e. it's a wash. Never mind that warp speed rigs decrease the Tengu's sig tanking ability as well.

DPS Problem with HAMs versus Guns: the HAMs on the Tengu fire every 1.9 seconds but have a flight time of 7.5 seconds, so you have to volley count. Which implies DPS loss. Plus missile volleys suffer from DPS loss to overkill. Guns on the other hand, suffer less from these problems, especially when split into groups.

Tengu has the better tank. You can blitz Damsel (but you need to kill the two spider drones to keep speed tank up. (And I really hated the dive to the cans at the end.)) I don't think I would do that in a Mach.


Anyway, I can see missions where the HAM Tengu could be competitive with the Mach, but we need testing.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2017-03-04 15:22:01 UTC
Considering both will walk thru an L4 mission with nary a scratch, either will do just fine.

All the rest of this fluff is merely trimming time off (or flatly 'working the system' to blitz) content that is easily completed in a basic T1 battleship.
Kaybella Hakaari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2017-03-05 01:22:58 UTC
If you're facing tracking disruption, the Tengu becomes more interesting. If something has the Mach's guns down to 10km or less, you're not hitting anything until the tracking disruption stops.

Rats don't do guidance disruption. Yet.
Tam Arai
Mi Pen Rai
#19 - 2017-03-05 09:55:15 UTC
Kaybella Hakaari wrote:
If you're facing tracking disruption, the Tengu becomes more interesting. If something has the Mach's guns down to 10km or less, you're not hitting anything until the tracking disruption stops.

Rats don't do guidance disruption. Yet.


the joy of a missile boat vs blood raiders laughing at their ewar
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2017-03-05 11:49:16 UTC
Nothing stopping you from using either.

They can both complete L4's, so in the end it boils down to your own personal preferences.

Which do you consider to be more important to your game-time.
- ISK per Hour
- Fun per Hour

as mentioned above
go play on test-server a little and see which you prefer



I liked the Tengu for missions even though it's not the 'optimal' choice
ymmv
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