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[March] Balance Tweaks: Focused Warp Scrambling Script

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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#341 - 2017-02-27 22:32:06 UTC
Ugly Eric wrote:
The 21km scram is good for faction. Then the hic has to be within heavy neut optimal and within extreme ranges of grappler. The 37.* scram is just too powerful to such strong tank and strong DPS. Compare the scram range to a mordus ship. The scram is way longer, yet the ship is way more tanky and has a 300-500 dps whitch is pretty much.



Why are we concerned about heavy neutralizer range? To make HIC's somewhat less useful against solo Battleships? We don't balance the game around solo anything. Solo Battleships will still get caught and killed by small gangs, with or without this change. What this will really do is make HIC's less effective versus Capitals and Supercapitals. Might as well delete them since Interdictors are already better at that role anyway.

This is a short-sighted change driven by crying from solo roamers and small gang kiters.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#342 - 2017-02-27 22:46:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Kassimila wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi m8s,

In March, we're releasing a number of balance tweaks and we would love your feedback.

WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS
The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options. As such, we're going to make some changes.
.


Let me approach this from another perspective, and I'd love CCP Larrikin's feedback on this. The statement here is that focused points are 'too oppressive' especially in small gang pvp. This seems to be neglecting a couple of key factors about the HIC.

1.) Focused point is very cap intensive.
2.) HICs don't have the best sensor/target range setup.

The following ships can easily counter a HIC focus pointing.

Griffin
Kitsune
Blackbird
Rook
Falcon
Keres
Lachesis
Arazu
Sentinel
Curse
Pilgrim
Anyone with medium/heavy neuts.

With this much counter play available, why the nerf? Maybe don't 'small gang' in 20x svipul's? I'm not seeing the logic here.


Do tell me how "anything" with heavy neuts will counter a HIC thats at 35km, about a full 15km outside optimal and deep into falloff. Unless youre a geddon or a bhaalgorn, but that is certainly not "anything". Same applies to the laughable inclusion of medium neuts. Any HIC pilot with a brain will screen/scram you before you can get in range to apply unbonused heavy/medium neuts.

Also cap boosted/batteried HICs are common. I mean unless you dont know how to fit your ship. I flew a cap boosted with a battery onyx, and it tanked well over 100k damage with just a large shield booster. Getting hit with a single heavy or medium neut would have had little effect.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#343 - 2017-02-27 23:06:07 UTC
Stitch,

Medium neutralizers are part of the discussion because Suitonia and others have expressed a preference for 15km scram range. That's pretty close. Also, not everyone is solo. Surely any non-suicidal pilot has friends who can come in close and neutralize a HIC? Or jam it out?

You are talking as if slow, 92000 EHP ships that cannot receive remote repairs while doing anything useful and MUST fit a battery or cap booster to do anything cannot be killed by an opposing small gang. They can and do get killed. Just not by kiters who stay too far away to hurt them or suicidal solo pilots.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#344 - 2017-02-27 23:29:21 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Do tell me how "anything" with heavy neuts will counter a HIC thats at 35km, about a full 15km outside optimal and deep into falloff. Unless youre a geddon or a bhaalgorn, but that is certainly not "anything". Same applies to the laughable inclusion of medium neuts. Any HIC pilot with a brain will screen/scram you before you can get in range to apply unbonused heavy/medium neuts.

Also cap boosted/batteried HICs are common. I mean unless you dont know how to fit your ship. I flew a cap boosted with a battery onyx, and it tanked well over 100k damage with just a large shield booster. Getting hit with a single heavy or medium neut would have had little effect.


Again this is small "GANG" pvp, a HIC can't focus point everyone. Stop playing the 'well if this, and that' game. Everything in eve is situational. The point is simply they are neut vulnerable, and anything with medium/heavy neuts can get on it and cap it out. This is called counter play. I fail to see how focus pointing a single target is 'too supressive' for small gang warfare. I've yet to see 5-10 man HIC gangs running around, because alas it's not all that. It's simply a good ability a group of ships get, and nerfing it doesn't do anything productive for the game in my opinion.
Kagi Anzomi
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#345 - 2017-02-28 07:10:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagi Anzomi
FT Diomedes wrote:
What this will really do is make HIC's less effective versus Capitals and Supercapitals. Might as well delete them since Interdictors are already better at that role anyway.


As much as I hate the proposed changes I have to correct you on that. The focused scram is getting a massive range reduction but you can still have a focused disruptor with the same range and strength they have now. That will hold caps down just as effectively, unless you're getting kited by a 50000MN Snaked nano Hel or something.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#346 - 2017-02-28 11:09:48 UTC
Kagi Anzomi wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
What this will really do is make HIC's less effective versus Capitals and Supercapitals. Might as well delete them since Interdictors are already better at that role anyway.


As much as I hate the proposed changes I have to correct you on that. The focused scram is getting a massive range reduction but you can still have a focused disruptor with the same range and strength they have now. That will hold caps down just as effectively, unless you're getting kited by a 50000MN Snaked nano Hel or something.


That's fair.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#347 - 2017-02-28 15:03:33 UTC
Kagi Anzomi wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
What this will really do is make HIC's less effective versus Capitals and Supercapitals. Might as well delete them since Interdictors are already better at that role anyway.


As much as I hate the proposed changes I have to correct you on that. The focused scram is getting a massive range reduction but you can still have a focused disruptor with the same range and strength they have now. That will hold caps down just as effectively, unless you're getting kited by a 50000MN Snaked nano Hel or something.


inb4 new meta is snake nano Hel
Delarian Rox
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#348 - 2017-03-01 09:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Delarian Rox
I only hope that HIC's wil get either some speed or dps buffs to compencate this nerf. Or maybe larger dronebays.

And i'm strongly against overheated scram range cause it lead to the same problems - gatecamps you can't escape from.

P. S. Almost trained them to V lol
Cade Windstalker
#349 - 2017-03-02 01:52:39 UTC
Delarian Rox wrote:
I only hope that HIC's wil get either some speed or dps buffs to compencate this nerf. Or maybe larger dronebays.

And i'm strongly against overheated scram range cause it lead to the same problems - gatecamps you can't escape from.

P. S. Almost trained them to V lol


Seems unlikely, considering they didn't get any nerfs when they originally let HIC points Scram stuff a year ago.
Ruby Gnollo
#350 - 2017-03-02 05:48:41 UTC
Trajan Unknown wrote:
Ok, I will give up on this. It was partly a nice discussion and some good input but overall it just feels like people want to buff the smallgang warfare without any need for it. I enjoy smallgang/BLOPs a lot more than anything else in EvE but after this patch it seems there will be even less fights to pick from because the standing fleets will either respond with overwhelming numbers or not at all. #rip #smallgang
Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)



What's interesting is hearing CCP taking the CSM as an excuse for this. Twice.
Prometheus Centuri
Interstellar Deshipping Inc.
#351 - 2017-03-03 22:00:19 UTC
Here we go again... something else to fiddle around with.

STOP TRYING TO FIX SOMETHING THAT'S NOT BROKEN! There's a reason why it's called a "HEAVY INTERDICTOR". If you're going to have a recon that can do a better job then why the hell would you need a HIC anyway? To limit their use to capitals only? then how does this help small gang warfare?!?
token trade alt
Slamming Mad B-Balls
#352 - 2017-03-03 22:10:38 UTC
Just gonna point out (point, get it?) that if the Mordu ships didn't have a point range bonus none of this would have ever come up. It's nice to live in a world where you have a recon or something nearby to scram at range, with bonuses at all times, but for most people, against one ship, it's unrealistic. You get near one of those ships with your inferior scram range and they just turn off your mwd before you can, theirs. Kitey ships worked for quite a while without something that kept them inherently safe, this just makes sure that unless the pilot is kind of slow or drunk off the hubris that these ships provide, you're not going to lose it. Not to mention anti-tackle RLML's dealing almost full damage.

Distinctly recall back in the day larger ship types were supposed to have difficulty with smaller targets. Weird.
Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
#353 - 2017-03-04 09:36:47 UTC
Reducing focused scram range reduction on HICs is a poor idea for pretty much all of the reasons stated; having a long range scram is one of the main reasons to take the time to train the hull from 4 to 5, and to train graviton physics to 5, which is around 40-44 days of training to take both from 4 to 5.
If you have the focused scram script loaded, you generally aren't tackling more than one target as multiple disruption field generators aren't fitted when you intend to use the hull in this manner.

The proliferation of oversized AB fits isn't because of HICs, it is because of scrams in general, as well as all the tengus and mordus legion ships out there.


Out of all the things to spend time 'balancing' I'd think that medium projectiles would be higher on the list of things to do; a balancing pass to medium projectiles would certainly be welcomed by a much larger % of the community than nerfing hictors.

my other nano is a polycarb
GROUND XERO
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#354 - 2017-03-04 12:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: GROUND XERO
... this is ********!

Kiting guys got through this a long time ago! So while super are getting cheap as **** you nerf the tackle for em... and it is no longer possible to stay out of heavy neut range....NCPL-Change?
I can see the problem when jumping solo through a gate and found yourself infront of a remote sebo hic waiting to stop you! But than again every other remote sebo camp will cause the same effect! So i never saw a need to change and i doubt there is one!

NCPL (Necromonger of new Eden) will make EVE great again!
Lucy Callagan
Goryn Clade
#355 - 2017-03-04 15:04:32 UTC
Nikea Tiber wrote:
The proliferation of oversized AB fits isn't because of HICs, it is because of scrams in general, as well as all the tengus and mordus legion ships out there.


Hum... No.
Cade Windstalker
#356 - 2017-03-04 19:41:24 UTC
Nikea Tiber wrote:
Reducing focused scram range reduction on HICs is a poor idea for pretty much all of the reasons stated; having a long range scram is one of the main reasons to take the time to train the hull from 4 to 5, and to train graviton physics to 5, which is around 40-44 days of training to take both from 4 to 5.
If you have the focused scram script loaded, you generally aren't tackling more than one target as multiple disruption field generators aren't fitted when you intend to use the hull in this manner.

The proliferation of oversized AB fits isn't because of HICs, it is because of scrams in general, as well as all the tengus and mordus legion ships out there.


Out of all the things to spend time 'balancing' I'd think that medium projectiles would be higher on the list of things to do; a balancing pass to medium projectiles would certainly be welcomed by a much larger % of the community than nerfing hictors.


Except that oversized AB fits have been a thing for over 4 years now, and HICs being able to scram at all with their point is only a year old. Also people trained L5 HIC and T2 points well before HIC-scrams were a thing.

As to your argument that CCP could better spend their time elsewhere, this is a fairly small and obvious change. HICs are better at being a Gallente Recon than the Gallente Recons are, and CCP even said back in the original HIC changes thread that they were considering exactly this change if HIC scrams turned out to be OP. In comparison re-balancing medium projectiles, again, is a much larger project and a lot more time on CCP's part.
Kagi Anzomi
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#357 - 2017-03-05 08:03:34 UTC
GROUND XERO wrote:
... this is ********!

Kiting guys got through this a long time ago! So while super are getting cheap as **** you nerf the tackle for em... and it is no longer possible to stay out of heavy neut range....NCPL-Change?
I can see the problem when jumping solo through a gate and found yourself infront of a remote sebo hic waiting to stop you! But than again every other remote sebo camp will cause the same effect! So i never saw a need to change and i doubt there is one!

This does not affect tacking supers unless they're somehow faster than the HIC. You can still warp disrupt them at the current range, it just won't be a scram.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#358 - 2017-03-05 10:59:26 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi m8s,

In March, we're releasing a number of balance tweaks and we would love your feedback.

WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS
The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options. As such, we're going to make some changes.
.


Let me approach this from another perspective, and I'd love CCP Larrikin's feedback on this. The statement here is that focused points are 'too oppressive' especially in small gang pvp. This seems to be neglecting a couple of key factors about the HIC.

1.) Focused point is very cap intensive.
2.) HICs don't have the best sensor/target range setup.

The following ships can easily counter a HIC focus pointing.

Griffin
Kitsune
Blackbird
Rook
Falcon
Keres
Lachesis
Arazu
Sentinel
Curse
Pilgrim
Anyone with medium/heavy neuts.

With this much counter play available, why the nerf? Maybe don't 'small gang' in 20x svipul's? I'm not seeing the logic here.



how about the fact that they out scram the dedicated scram E-war ship with significantly more tank and DPS? not to mention a sebo or two and a cap booster let it just go on ignoring your counters.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#359 - 2017-03-05 11:26:37 UTC
Kagi Anzomi wrote:
GROUND XERO wrote:
... this is ********!

Kiting guys got through this a long time ago! So while super are getting cheap as **** you nerf the tackle for em... and it is no longer possible to stay out of heavy neut range....NCPL-Change?
I can see the problem when jumping solo through a gate and found yourself infront of a remote sebo hic waiting to stop you! But than again every other remote sebo camp will cause the same effect! So i never saw a need to change and i doubt there is one!

This does not affect tacking supers unless they're somehow faster than the HIC. You can still warp disrupt them at the current range, it just won't be a scram.


i mean we all know how important scramming a super is...

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#360 - 2017-03-05 11:52:57 UTC
Nikea Tiber wrote:
Reducing focused scram range reduction on HICs is a poor idea for pretty much all of the reasons stated; having a long range scram is one of the main reasons to take the time to train the hull from 4 to 5, and to train graviton physics to 5, which is around 40-44 days of training to take both from 4 to 5.

many of us had these trained long before the addition of the scram effect
Quote:

If you have the focused scram script loaded, you generally aren't tackling more than one target as multiple disruption field generators aren't fitted when you intend to use the hull in this manner.

yes you are and yes they are. in fact we have several that fit 4 and even up to 6 for the ones that can manage the cap.


just because YOU don't use them in this way doesn't mean they are not used this way. hell I had flown 4 WDFG fits before the scram change to assist in pinning down fleets that began to attempt to run. or point multiple high value ships to raise the chance of the enemy doubling down.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble