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[March] Balance Tweaks: Focused Warp Scrambling Script

First post First post First post
Author
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#321 - 2017-02-26 13:54:25 UTC
Ugly Eric wrote:
Trajan Unknown wrote:
Grookshank wrote:
Trajan Unknown wrote:
Can we please, once and for all stop saying "40km scram"? It is 37.5km with max skills and t2 focus point. Stop looking dumb because you speak of 39.5/40km scrams. There is no such thing. Thank you. :)

There are faction modules in the game.


So what? You wanna tell me that people use ******* faction WDFGs now? I guess the hi-sec people who camp stations/gates all the time do so. You won´t see them in zero-zero/low-sec except for some ****** maybe. Who in his right mind ******* fits a module that increased the price by a lot for 2.3km? That´s bollocks but ok, I gladly take any pointers towards small gang people who are using these modules. Else I call it bullshit like so many other statements here that never got backed up at all. It´s hard enough to accept the 37.5km range because most fits use pitfalls because of the better fitting and maybe because most people don´t train GP to V.





I do. There are a LOT of us, to whom isk is not a issue. And that 2.3km is actually quite a lot. as we just have been discussing the length of different bonused ship scrams, the longest scram always wins, so that 2.3km is quite a bit.


Yes, the extra range makes quite a bit of difference. I usually only use the T2 one for affordability reasons, but I die a little bit inside every time one of my corp mates fails to scram someone because he's using an inferior variant.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#322 - 2017-02-26 15:58:58 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
The kiting play style usually has the freedom to pick the fights it wants. That's why people fly it. If a gang comes to visit, we form up a response and see what we get. If we have the composition to beat them, they can typically run away, unless we have the numbers to put a HIC + webs on their possible exit gates. For example, one group came for a roam yesterday with a small Gila gang. A couple of us responded with a couple of small tackle ships and my Onyx. We actually had fewer folks immediately available than they did, but the threat to their ability to run away made them leave. As soon as the Onyx came on d-scan, they ran away, literally crying in local "HIC = no fun." If I had brought a Lachesis, they wouldn't have seen it coming, but then they would have tried to run once they saw it on grid. Or, as soon as they saw a Scimitar on D-Scan. It's very hard to make people fight in this game.


To their defense, the carrier menace that is implicitly linked to HICs is kinda scary yeah.
Trajan Unknown
State War Academy
Caldari State
#323 - 2017-02-26 16:14:28 UTC
Ok, I will give up on this. It was partly a nice discussion and some good input but overall it just feels like people want to buff the smallgang warfare without any need for it. I enjoy smallgang/BLOPs a lot more than anything else in EvE but after this patch it seems there will be even less fights to pick from because the standing fleets will either respond with overwhelming numbers or not at all. #rip #smallgang
Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)

Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#324 - 2017-02-26 16:17:41 UTC
Trajan Unknown wrote:

Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)



Buy a rorqual ))
Lugh Crow-Slave
#325 - 2017-02-26 16:58:49 UTC
Trajan Unknown wrote:
Ok, I will give up on this. It was partly a nice discussion and some good input but overall it just feels like people want to buff the smallgang warfare without any need for it. I enjoy smallgang/BLOPs a lot more than anything else in EvE but after this patch it seems there will be even less fights to pick from because the standing fleets will either respond with overwhelming numbers or not at all. #rip #smallgang
Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)


Roll
Trajan Unknown
State War Academy
Caldari State
#326 - 2017-02-26 17:46:30 UTC
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
Trajan Unknown wrote:

Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)



Buy a rorqual ))



Nah, I don´t need a Rorq to drop on ****. It would also mean I have to train into it on at least one alt and no thanks. :D
Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#327 - 2017-02-26 17:50:46 UTC
Trajan Unknown wrote:
Ok, I will give up on this. It was partly a nice discussion and some good input but overall it just feels like people want to buff the smallgang warfare without any need for it. I enjoy smallgang/BLOPs a lot more than anything else in EvE but after this patch it seems there will be even less fights to pick from because the standing fleets will either respond with overwhelming numbers or not at all. #rip #smallgang
Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)



What is your entire argument here?
Standing fleets will bring more because HICs are broken as ****, easy to use and 1 ship answers to the current meta and they'll feel they'll need more?
But you were saying HICs were balanced?
:thinking:

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#328 - 2017-02-26 17:55:38 UTC
Trajan Unknown wrote:
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
Trajan Unknown wrote:

Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)



Buy a rorqual ))



Nah, I don´t need a Rorq to drop on ****. It would also mean I have to train into it on at least one alt and no thanks. :D


It's a bit off topic, but you've to admit that rorquals are better than BO at everything, insured they just cost a bit more than a BO hull.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#329 - 2017-02-26 18:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Suitonia wrote:
Trajan Unknown wrote:
Ok, I will give up on this. It was partly a nice discussion and some good input but overall it just feels like people want to buff the smallgang warfare without any need for it. I enjoy smallgang/BLOPs a lot more than anything else in EvE but after this patch it seems there will be even less fights to pick from because the standing fleets will either respond with overwhelming numbers or not at all. #rip #smallgang
Time to focus on BLOPs I guess and wait for a time where less people cry about too many things. :)



What is your entire argument here?
Standing fleets will bring more because HICs are broken as ****, easy to use and 1 ship answers to the current meta and they'll feel they'll need more?
But you were saying HICs were balanced?
:thinking:


One ship does not answer to the current meta. That's completely false. You have set up a straw man.

If all I bring is a HIC, the guys with dual propulsion or an oversized afterburner run away laughing at my 2700 m/s overheated, boosted speed (Onyx with C-Type MWD and one Nanofiber). So, I automatically need to bring skirmish boosters and a webbing ship to compete - even with a 37km scram. That assumes I am facing a competent opponent. Against incompetent morons, perhaps I can get away with just a couple of HIC's, but I could use almost any ship to deal with them.

Against the solo-roamers in Battleships and Battlecruisers: I do not rate them as competent opponents. The only thing I am concerned about if I see a solo battleship is whether they are hot drop bait. I don't care how personally skilled they are, or how much bling they have in their ships. They are not competent opponents. Just suicidal. We do not balance the game around solo Battleships and solo Battlecruisers. That would be like balancing the game around suicide ganking. What?IdeaShocked

Please show me where competent kiting gangs are regularly getting destroyed by just HIC's. They are not. I assure you that Exodus and The Culture don't die to just HIC's. It's just one group of risk averse people (Kiting Roamers) complaining about another group of risk averse people (Home Defense fleets). No one in Eve wants to lose ships. That's why longer scram ranges are good. They make it harder to run away from a fight.

I will grant you that HIC's are too good in their current state. They should have a maximum scram range of 27-30km (T2 vs Faction) (without heat - leave heat as it is for WDFG's). The Lachesis and Arazu should have a maximum scram range of 37-40km (depending on warp scrambler meta level and with heat). That leaves a role for HIC's in the small gang meta that makes them a powerful adversary, without stomping all over the Gallente Recon's role. It leaves the Lachesis and Arazu able to more effectively counter the kiting meta of 45km points.

That would encourage roamers to use more Gallente Recons as well, because they would then be powerful enough to considering bringing along on a roam. I do not usually see HIC's brought on roaming gangs, presumably because they are so clumsy and lumbering that they would get caught and die.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#330 - 2017-02-26 18:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Daide Vondrichnov
FT Diomedes wrote:

Please show me where competent kiting gangs are regularly getting destroyed by just HIC's. They are not. I assure you that Exodus and The Culture don't die to just HIC's. It's just one group of risk averse people (Kiting Roamers) complaining about another group of risk averse people (Home Defense fleets). No one in Eve wants to lose ships. That's why longer scram ranges are good. They make it harder to run away from a fight.



Tbf; the HIC won't be the most efficient when it comes to burning at a target, people will just pull range as you are approaching.

However the role where it really does shine is when you start pinging on a roaming fleet, you'll just shatter their pack everytimes, and thanks to your tank you'll be able to keep the ships scrambled while waiting for your fleet to back you up, something that arazu / lachesis are less likely to do due to the lower tank and increased price due to Scrambl / disruptors price.

Luckly most of the HICs don't think about it, as a roamer, there is nothing more scarying than a HIC knowing his ****.
Doddy
Excidium.
#331 - 2017-02-26 20:19:47 UTC
Oh look, CCP gives in to crybabies again.

Just for once could you show some backbone.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#332 - 2017-02-26 20:25:49 UTC
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:

Please show me where competent kiting gangs are regularly getting destroyed by just HIC's. They are not. I assure you that Exodus and The Culture don't die to just HIC's. It's just one group of risk averse people (Kiting Roamers) complaining about another group of risk averse people (Home Defense fleets). No one in Eve wants to lose ships. That's why longer scram ranges are good. They make it harder to run away from a fight.



Tbf; the HIC won't be the most efficient when it comes to burning at a target, people will just pull range as you are approaching.

However the role where it really does shine is when you start pinging on a roaming fleet, you'll just shatter their pack everytimes, and thanks to your tank you'll be able to keep the ships scrambled while waiting for your fleet to back you up, something that arazu / lachesis are less likely to do due to the lower tank and increased price due to Scrambl / disruptors price
Luckly most of the HICs don't think about it, as a roamer, there is nothing more scarying than a HIC knowing his ****.


Yes, I have found that HIC's make great secondary tacklers. When we are properly prepared, we have a prober squad warping fast tacklers. The HIC stays aligned until the Interceptors get tackle (ideally a scram), then warps to the fast tacklers before they die. Even though you may trade a couple of Interceptors, you can at least hold them long enough to get some kills. The extra scram range is essential because otherwise the kiters can glide out of range before you get out of warp. This works way better than the tackler zerg rush towards the roamers, which gets you all strung out so that you die sequentially.

Of course, the fact that you know this already simply demonstrates what a weak straw man Suitonia and others have established.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#333 - 2017-02-26 20:30:29 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:


If all I bring is a HIC, the guys with dual propulsion or an oversized afterburner run away laughing at my 2700 m/s overheated, boosted speed (Onyx with C-Type MWD and one Nanofiber). So, I automatically need to bring skirmish boosters and a webbing ship to compete - even with a 37km scram. That assumes I am facing a competent opponent. Against incompetent morons, perhaps I can get away with just a couple of HIC's, but I could use almost any ship to deal with them.


The reason why people run Dual-Prop or oversized AB is almost entirely due to HICs, and to a lesser extent carriers, which are augmented by HICs. There is a reason why every high-end successful nano group such as Turn Left, Therabois, Method Synergy (Lussy Lous russian dudes) and Micro Gang etc. are posting in this thread. You absolutely have to run Orthrus + Keres, or 100mn AB in the current climate because of HICs. We've been running 100mn AB gangs for the past 2 years and it's getting incredibly stale.

Why do you need a 37km scram vs AB ships anyway? A disruptor does the same thing. The only difference between a Huginn and a HIC, is that a Huginn actually has a fairly reasonable chance of dying if it's caught out of position or too aggressive and also doesn't have a point at the same range too. Lachesis also has similar EHP. Where as a HIC has almost 3x the EHP of most 4-5 slot tanks on Huginn/Lachesis, while being more oppressive and doing more damage than either of them.

The problem with the HIC is that you are combining 3 different roles into 1 ship with battleship EHP. You're combining the Roles of a Sabre, Huginn, Lachesis, giving them better DPS and BS EHP. It's a one stop shop for countering anyone who isn't fit for dealing with HICs. Adding all four of those named ships very often would be better than fighting just a single HIC in a lot of cases for skirmish gangs, because at least they are killable and can be punished if they make an error.

Quote:
Against the solo-roamers in Battleships and Battlecruisers: I do not rate them as competent opponents. The only thing I am concerned about if I see a solo battleship is whether they are hot drop bait. I don't care how personally skilled they are, or how much bling they have in their ships. They are not competent opponents. Just suicidal. We do not balance the game around solo Battleships and solo Battlecruisers. That would be like balancing the game around suicide ganking. What?IdeaShocked


I'm not saying you should balance the game around solo BCs and Battleships, but the problem is that a HIC shuts down all of their utility while also remaining outside heavy neut and grappler range making them able to easily permanently control a BS. With 21km Scrams you at least have to be on the edge of Heavy Neut optimal, and in CR BS gun range. So BS will have more tools to deal with them. They still have more EHP than a battleship so can survive and hold it down long enough to get support, HICs should be support ships, not solo pwn mobiles with BS EHP, Recon Control and HAC DPS.

I know there are many other ships which mean the end for anyone trying to do anything in battleships (Falcon etc.), but those ships have no skirmish control or DPS, and have 1/4th of the EHP of the typical HIC if it fucks up so its way more likely to at least die in a mistake, in a HIC you can be the worst pilot on the planet and still do well, it's the old Svipul.

Quote:

Please show me where competent kiting gangs are regularly getting destroyed by just HIC's. They are not. I assure you that Exodus and The Culture don't die to just HIC's. It's just one group of risk averse people (Kiting Roamers) complaining about another group of risk averse people (Home Defense fleets). No one in Eve wants to lose ships. That's why longer scram ranges are good. They make it harder to run away from a fight.


The Competent kiting gangs don't get destroyed by HICs, because they run Orthrus+Keres or 100mn AB. The ships that they absolutely have to fly if they want to play the game. It's a shame that 80% of the ship pool is obsoleted by them, hence this thread.

Defenders already have jump bridges, cyno beacons, capitals. If you have a stronger fleet than the roamers and they want to escape, then you already have tools at your disposal to cut them off. 37.5km scrams just punish anyone not running the meta.

Quote:

I will grant you that HIC's are too good in their current state. They should have a maximum scram range of 27-30km (T2 vs Faction) (without heat - leave heat as it is for WDFG's). The Lachesis and Arazu should have a maximum scram range of 37-40km (depending on warp scrambler meta level and with heat). That leaves a role for HIC's in the small gang meta that makes them a powerful adversary, without stomping all over the Gallente Recon's role. It leaves the Lachesis and Arazu able to more effectively counter the kiting meta of 45km points.


I think 21km is fine because it's in heavy neut range at least, and leaves some room to play with disruptor 24km (28.8km) vs HIC 21km, where you can keep it tackled but not scrammed, as well as some room to maneuver around it while keeping point on something else. Personally I would rather see it be closer to 15km. I think 27-30km is way too oppressive and will retain the current 100mn ab meta that everyone is sick of.

You mention 45km point (Clearly you mean the Orthrus here). The Orthrus is a broken ship, we know it, everyone knows it, CCP knows it. Lets nerf the Orthrus instead of making the other 80% of roaming ships remain collecting dust in peoples hangers. The Orthrus keeps getting brought up as a reason for HICs to exist, the Orthrus is the only surviving MWD cruiser in the meta BECAUSE OF HICS. Nerf the Orthrus please. Nerf the HIC scram also, so we can have a more dynamic game with more options instead of being forced into 2 gang comps like we are now.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

FSync
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#334 - 2017-02-27 16:20:10 UTC  |  Edited by: FSync
I think this is a bad change.

I shall elaborate;

- The HIC was already a rarely used ship in low-sec engagement, after these changes they are going to be non-existent in low sec.
- The HIC will only be useable in 2 situations which rarely occur: capital on a gate -> sovblock warfare.

Right now the HIC class has formidable ships in there with each of their own specialties, and their main specialty is interdiction.

As soon as these changes are implemented, it's main use will be obsolete over the Orthrus, let alone it will drop slow tanky long scrams which had many ways to counter (ever fought a hic? just sit below it's optimals for example?).

I agree the HIC class is overpowered, I have made use of it many times gatecamping, though I do not agree that it should be nerfed that much.

A nerf of 20% is brilliant (max scram range of 28k), but what the OP says is not 20% but more 49% decrease.

Just taking out an entire class because a CSM Mr Hyde claimed it would be a good idea is going to make fundamental changes on how most battles are going to be fought out involving Hictors, and I can tell you up front, people will not pick the Hictor anymore outside of 0 sec, while we were already seeing so few hictors.

There's an insane amount of supercaps and titans out there, they are supposed to be rare, don't take the one tool away that made it somewhat affordable and useable vs capitals, a 50% nerf is really substantial.

Enfin, I think the idea to change the hictor is a good idea, but the method is a tad bit drastic if not, too overwhelming.

I hope CCP reviews this change before it makes it into the final build.


EDIT: I'm seeing posts about how people don't need to fit AB anymore, isn't eve all about fitting the right tool for the job? The HIC was the right tool to catch those fast guys who otherwise would spam microwarpdrives, I guarantee you it's going to be vagabond camping all over again.
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns
#335 - 2017-02-27 17:11:47 UTC
The 21km scram is good for faction. Then the hic has to be within heavy neut optimal and within extreme ranges of grappler. The 37.* scram is just too powerful to such strong tank and strong DPS. Compare the scram range to a mordus ship. The scram is way longer, yet the ship is way more tanky and has a 300-500 dps whitch is pretty much.

Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#336 - 2017-02-27 17:30:58 UTC
This change seems a bit odd to me. Long range scram is the one thing HICs do well, why take that away? In my mind every class of ship in eve needs a purpose. The original purpose of the HIC was to point Supers/Titans. With the changes to fighters, and the addition of HAWs, that's not really possible anymore. Being able to get repaired while pointing might fix that. As it stands right now, for about 10% of the isk cost you could just bring a dictor bubble up, and cloak (repeat as needed).

Please do not put this change in until you have a role for HICs to perform. There is no purpose for leaving them in la-la land. In the current meta long range scram is the only thing they do well.


Some Ideas to make HICs useful -

Remove interceptor immunity to HIC bubbles.
Change it so you cannot cloak in a HIC bubble.
Remove T3 Immunity to HIC bubbles.

Add the ability to be repaired while using Focus point, but not bubble.
Instead of adding another 'script' to shut off MWDs, change the Focus point to function differently depending on range, example below.
22-30+km = It just points them.
10-22km = It points them and turns off MWDs.
0-10km = It turns off MWDs, applies faction specific effect, and points them.
Faction Specific effects: Amarr: Neut, Caldari:Jam, Gallante:Damp ,Minimitar:Web

IMO: Those bubble changes would be good reason to bring/fly a HIC.
Cade Windstalker
#337 - 2017-02-27 18:01:49 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
This change seems a bit odd to me. Long range scram is the one thing HICs do well, why take that away? In my mind every class of ship in eve needs a purpose. The original purpose of the HIC was to point Supers/Titans. With the changes to fighters, and the addition of HAWs, that's not really possible anymore. Being able to get repaired while pointing might fix that. As it stands right now, for about 10% of the isk cost you could just bring a dictor bubble up, and cloak (repeat as needed).


Because HICs already have other things they do well, and Gallente EWar's role is long-range point and scram. Something they were being completely eclipsed in by the HIC which offers every advantage over a Recon Cruiser in terms of HP, damage, scram range, and general utility.

Also HICs are absolutely used to point caps and up. Anyone saying that's not possible anymore has been hilariously misinformed.
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#338 - 2017-02-27 18:13:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassimila
Cade Windstalker wrote:


Because HICs already have other things they do well, and Gallente EWar's role is long-range point and scram. Something they were being completely eclipsed in by the HIC which offers every advantage over a Recon Cruiser in terms of HP, damage, scram range, and general utility.

Also HICs are absolutely used to point caps and up. Anyone saying that's not possible anymore has been hilariously misinformed.


Oh you can point them, you won't live very long, but yeah you can point them. Also if you take a look the sensor strength on a HIC is like 19 base, the lachesis is 30. If you don't like being focus pointed, you can jam them out pretty easy. Sorry your MWD garmer can't jam well?
Cade Windstalker
#339 - 2017-02-27 21:23:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Kassimila wrote:
Oh you can point them, you won't live very long, but yeah you can point them. Also if you take a look the sensor strength on a HIC is like 19 base, the lachesis is 30. If you don't like being focus pointed, you can jam them out pretty easy. Sorry your MWD garmer can't jam well?


You're acting like the only place anyone ever tackles a Cap is in the middle of a giant blob. I can assure you this is not the case. Yes, in a big fight a 'dictor is a better bet than a HIC, but that doesn't make HICs useless by a long shot. They got plenty of use before they could scram and will continue to see plenty of use after.

Just because they occasionally get HAW-blapped doesn't change that.

Also I don't have a Garmur, but I appreciate your concern for its hypothetical jam strength Big smile
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#340 - 2017-02-27 21:59:21 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi m8s,

In March, we're releasing a number of balance tweaks and we would love your feedback.

WARP DISRUPTION FIELD GENERATORS
The current state of Scripted Warp Disruption Field Generators is a little too oppressive, especially to the small gang PvP scene. We'd like to open up propulsion module options. As such, we're going to make some changes.
.


Let me approach this from another perspective, and I'd love CCP Larrikin's feedback on this. The statement here is that focused points are 'too oppressive' especially in small gang pvp. This seems to be neglecting a couple of key factors about the HIC.

1.) Focused point is very cap intensive.
2.) HICs don't have the best sensor/target range setup.

The following ships can easily counter a HIC focus pointing.

Griffin
Kitsune
Blackbird
Rook
Falcon
Keres
Lachesis
Arazu
Sentinel
Curse
Pilgrim
Anyone with medium/heavy neuts.

With this much counter play available, why the nerf? Maybe don't 'small gang' in 20x svipul's? I'm not seeing the logic here.