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[March] Rorqual and Mining changes

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Grognard Commissar
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#421 - 2017-02-25 01:37:09 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Goborn wrote:
According to my best knowledge the Rorq's mining yield has now been nerfed by 58%


Your math is off. The paper yield got chopped by 25% once, then that remaining 75% got chopped by 25%, which leaves you with ~56.25% of the original post-changes level.

paintballlawss Padecain wrote:
The only people having no risk is the people in MEGA Coaltions but for us small indy folk this nerf is huge and I dont even give a crap about the PANIC change except for the fact I have to lock a rock when there are much better ways to go about it than that but we might as well go back to hulk mining because there is very little reward to having a rorq on field and too the argument of super ratting is far more risky... im sorry but you are completely wrong super and titan ratting is way less risky then rorq mining... you siege up a rorq in a belt with that cost 16 bil for 5 mins with no backup and tell me how much your butthole puckers for smaller alliances the rorqual mining will be dead because there is no backup for them and you can make more and be safer by hulk mining


Yes, and those people in massive coalitions make up the vast majority of Rorqual users and thus the majority of mineral influx that is causing market problems.

A smaller group that only has 1-2 Rorquals and still uses Exhumers actually benefits from this change because now those boosted Exhumers are mining more compared to a Rorqual, and this will likely push some people out of Rorqual Mining, meaning that demand and price for the Excavators should drop and the mineral price should recover.

On top of that this makes it more viable, relatively, to just boost with a Rorqual and mine with Hulks, since the hull itself is only ~3B and pays out ~2.2B with full insurance.

this is also not considering drone travel time... which is becoming more significant, especially with the cycle time change
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#422 - 2017-02-25 01:41:13 UTC
Time to boost and just mine with normal T2 mining drones
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#423 - 2017-02-25 01:41:35 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Lexia Nova wrote:
Balancing mining.... are you having a laugh? Why on earth do you need to spread out ores in sites even more? Its already difficult enough getting everyone close enough for boosting (as rocks die off). Not all of us have rorq's you know....



As someone who has mined with an Orca booster in Null Sec, this is a valid concern. Even with a Higgs anchor rig, I can easily get out of my exhumers range fairly quickly.

Remember that the range bonus for the boosts requires you to be in Industrial mode. So... is it really worth it?

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Archeos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#424 - 2017-02-25 02:10:26 UTC
Reducing the excavator drone yield by HALF is really too much taking into consideration the huge price on them. They will be only 2,5 times better then augmented mining drones at 30x TIMES THE PRICE. It has no sense whatsoever.

RETHINK what you are proposing. Nerfing the rorqual and carrier ratting at the same time ? Why do you want to enrage everyone living in nullsec ?

STOP THE NERFS.
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#425 - 2017-02-25 02:56:38 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

These changes revolve around the Rorqual and mining in general. We've been keeping a close eye on the mineral economy since Ascension and we feel that we need to make another fairly significant intervention in order to help keep this area of the EVE economy healthy.


Economy is not healthy, as you CCP did not listen to normal opinions like mine before introducing those changes, and why economy is not healthy? as those changes give huge advantage for few, over everyone.
By few, those are goons and such, biggest entities who can supercap blob everything, as only those can use and use rorquals successfully. just look at zkill, where those rorquals die.

ONLY, reasonable solution to your mess ccp now, is to make industry core cycle 30sec, and lower max rorqual mining to level of two boosted hulks. Also mining drones need require less resources to build, as from perspective someone who got access to those resources, numbers are just sick.
Damian Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#426 - 2017-02-25 03:29:18 UTC
These changes are awful. The risk/reward just became ridiculously unbalanced. Why should anyone use the rorqual when a basic fit that isn't garbage is 12b but only mines 2 hulks' worth at a time. I could mine with literally 40 fully fitted t2 hulks for that price and just decimate production of any hulk, and fleet warp and not have to worry about losing a 1.8b drone, let alone 5 of them. I'd have to lose 6 hulks at once to equate to the price of one drone. Why nerf rorquals and murder the risk/reward. Now they're practically useless.
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#427 - 2017-02-25 03:42:45 UTC
Damian Koskanaiken wrote:
These changes are awful. The risk/reward just became ridiculously unbalanced. Why should anyone use the rorqual when a basic fit that isn't garbage is 12b but only mines 2 hulks' worth at a time. I could mine with literally 40 fully fitted t2 hulks for that price and just decimate production of any hulk, and fleet warp and not have to worry about losing a 1.8b drone, let alone 5 of them. I'd have to lose 6 hulks at once to equate to the price of one drone. Why nerf rorquals and murder the risk/reward. Now they're practically useless.

Amen. Send fozzie to the unemployment line!
Cade Windstalker
#428 - 2017-02-25 04:16:53 UTC
Grognard Commissar wrote:
this is also not considering drone travel time... which is becoming more significant, especially with the cycle time change


Yes, but that math was still bad, especially since travel time is harder to factor in.

Damian Koskanaiken wrote:
These changes are awful. The risk/reward just became ridiculously unbalanced. Why should anyone use the rorqual when a basic fit that isn't garbage is 12b but only mines 2 hulks' worth at a time. I could mine with literally 40 fully fitted t2 hulks for that price and just decimate production of any hulk, and fleet warp and not have to worry about losing a 1.8b drone, let alone 5 of them. I'd have to lose 6 hulks at once to equate to the price of one drone. Why nerf rorquals and murder the risk/reward. Now they're practically useless.


This math is just... what? 2 Hulks?

This is a 25% nerf in yield, slightly more with increased time spent traveling due to cycle time reduction. Currently a Rorqual mines as much as 7 fully Rorqual boosted Hulks, or as much as 8.35 unsieged Rorqual boosted Hulks. Multiplying by the 25% nerf gives us:


  • 7 * 0.75 = 5.25
  • 8.35 * 0.75 = 6.26


Both of those are, to put it mildly, significantly more than 2.

Also if you put out 39 hulks and boosted with 1 Sieged Rorqual you could mine like you have 72 Hulks on grid, so there's that...

FT Diomedes wrote:
To get the good boosts you still have to be in Industrial Core mode. The only way to justify that risk is to be mining with the Rorqual as well. Otherwise, you will be boosting while aligned to your citadel or POS.


I don't think the math supports this. A Rorqual after insurance *just boosting* costs about 1.6b. The Platinum Insurance costs 635m and pays out 2.12b on ship destruction. Having a boosting Rorqual on grid and deployed increases the yield of all of your Hulks by 30.5% over having a Rorqual on-grid and not-deployed, 32.5m3/s vs 27.2m3/s from mining lasers only.

That's a fairly significant increase in ore production. Also having a Rorqual on-grid gives you a fairly significant chance of getting your Hulks off, since they can spend more time moving and aligned before having to adjust due to the increased mining laser range, and because of the PANIC mode in the event of a rapid enough drop that the enemy manages to catch you.

In this case, even assuming you just straight up lose the Rorqual (which is by no means guaronteed to happen every time) you're still only out that ~1.6b (if you're costing the Rorqual by raw materials it's literally just the cost of the insurance that you lose, 2.1b is the cost of materials) and in exchange your Hulks are safer and you get to mine like there's 30% more of them on-grid compared to mining with an aligned Rorqual.

IMO that's riskier than an Orca or unsieged Rorqual, but it's still a fairly justifiable risk given the low cost of the Rorqual without drones compared to the Rorqual with drones, and the massively decreased likelihood of you getting dropped if you don't have 6-7b in drones floating around on field.
Xphox Nielson
Stop Exploding You Cowards
#429 - 2017-02-25 04:35:49 UTC
Can I seriously have all my SP back? I thought gee, finally I should get the ship. Spend all this time training into one. I mine the ore, build my ship, get 3/4 completed on new drones and before I can even use it, it's jacked twice?

WTH CCP? This is absurd. Complete BS.
Bruno Diaz
Zero Atmosphere
Fraternity.
#430 - 2017-02-25 04:51:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Bruno Diaz
more nerfed for rorqual, that socks! the ship and fit cost is like 10b.... why I go to want used, if whit two hulk I'll take the same ore... if you low the base yield, upgrade the bonus in rigs, or skills, but less ore less interest to used the 10 B ship...



If I undermined 100 now I will get 62.5 % less,bone will only take 37.5 % of what I originally got, ridiculous
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#431 - 2017-02-25 04:58:46 UTC
We may need to vandalize a monument to get their attention guys. JK
xXDtwelveXx
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#432 - 2017-02-25 05:00:11 UTC
What we should do ...is i think we should let them play this game ...on rheyr own for like half a year or even forever since ex players are involved in the creation of this game nothing can go good nothing ....if this game becomes only to suck from ppl $$$ them **** them ...let them play it ...myself spent lost of $$ to get there and now they takeing it away ...real life buy ing a car and after 3 month the sellers come to you and takes his car back with out giveing ur money back!! good one ...ima gonna jut let them play .,,
Bolshakov Alexei
NeoCorteX Industry
No Value
#433 - 2017-02-25 05:59:12 UTC
So much effort has been invested in the pumping equipment Rorqual, and now his nerf any longer! Burn in hell with their Nerf!
apollo429
Colonial Industries
#434 - 2017-02-25 06:02:23 UTC
Gamble Aces wrote:
Here's my tinfoil hat theory.


CCP gives zero fucks about the mineral market. CCP has lost a shitload of subs because people that previously had 10-12 accounts mining now have 1-3 accounts. Now they think by nerfing rorquals and buffing barges all these people will pay their subs again.




This!!! so much this!!!!!
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#435 - 2017-02-25 06:04:27 UTC
apollo429 wrote:
Gamble Aces wrote:
Here's my tinfoil hat theory.


CCP gives zero fucks about the mineral market. CCP has lost a shitload of subs because people that previously had 10-12 accounts mining now have 1-3 accounts. Now they think by nerfing rorquals and buffing barges all these people will pay their subs again.




This!!! so much this!!!!!

Yup and they need to stop.
apollo429
Colonial Industries
#436 - 2017-02-25 06:06:21 UTC
The best way to react to this would be to starve eve of ore and minerals. If we could only get everyone to stop selling g their ore, pull their sell orders down and choke eve of minerals and watch the price of everything rise up. Let set the mineral market ourselfs. I would love to see trit hit 10isk a unit and see how CCP reacts
Bolshakov Alexei
NeoCorteX Industry
No Value
#437 - 2017-02-25 06:19:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Bolshakov Alexei
2 Hulk for 14kkk ... Make time at least the core cycle 1 minute! And Increase agility.

"CCP gives zero fucks about the mineral market. CCP has lost a shitload of subs because people that previously had 10-12 accounts mining now have 1-3 accounts. Now they think by nerfing rorquals and buffing barges all these people will pay their subs again."


It's true, no one more excessive greed to no good arguments.

GREED

P.S. Fozzy should be fired!!!
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#438 - 2017-02-25 06:23:40 UTC
Bolshakov Alexei wrote:
2 Hulk for 14kkk ... Make time at least the core cycle 1 minute! And Increase agility.

"CCP gives zero fucks about the mineral market. CCP has lost a shitload of subs because people that previously had 10-12 accounts mining now have 1-3 accounts. Now they think by nerfing rorquals and buffing barges all these people will pay their subs again."


Это правда, излишняя жадность ещё никого до добра не доводила.

GREED

P.S. Fozzy should be fired!!!

^^this
Rafau Maco
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#439 - 2017-02-25 06:40:14 UTC
#Make Rorquals Great Again
Mistress Renegade
Acme Aerospace
#440 - 2017-02-25 06:40:18 UTC
To solve the problems stated by CCP over the PANIC mode on Rorq's, why not just get rid of it all together. This solves the problem of invulnerable tackle, entosos or combat cyno etc.
To compensate for this make the industrial core not anchor the ship in place. This way a Rorq mining can align and warp out if needed. The Rorq is a capital class ship so it still has a strong tank which can fend of small gangs which it currently can with out the PANIC mode.