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Citadel defenses are pathetic.....why bother?

Author
Black Pedro
Mine.
#141 - 2017-01-15 18:07:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Bertok Francis wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
APHRATTOS wrote:
So I was lookinf though killboards the other day and i noticed that there seems to have been no ships killed in high sec by an Astrahaus.
https://zkillboard.com/ship/35832/kills/
Have I missed something or are they realy that terrible?
Null sec citadels with the point defence and void bomb launchers are powerfull but in high sec an Astrahaus which on paper should be able to neut, jam and put out over 2000 dps cannot kill anything!


Correct!

Quote:
This needs a to be looked at by someone.


Incorrect!


Engage your braincase for a minute and realize that means that the defenders didn't even kill anything the citadel had engaged.

Most of those died completely undefended, because most of the people who put up structures in high sec are helpless numpties who are relying on boredom and luck as a defense strategy.

This also means that no astrahaus in all of hisec has been on a killmail ever. Most are probably undefended but all of them having been undefended is unlikely. Also, in total the astrahaus has only been on about 100 killmails (an oddly high number of their kills are from pandemic legion and pandemic horde and I am not sure why; it's about 30%)
It is not odd. Citadels are suppose to be force multipliers but who controls the grid is suppose to determine the outcome of the battle. PL can bring more players to the grid and thus generates the most kills while others either end up as those kills, or just don't show up to begin with.

In highsec, attackers either bring enough logistics to rep the damage from the structure and any defenders, or they don't show up in the first place. There is no unavoidable doomsday for them to worry about, so assuring enough support to rep through any damage is an easy calculation. That may say citadels are underpowered, but it more likely reflects the fact that the highsec mercenaries generally doing the attacking totally outclass the average highsec corp. You can blame that on the last round of nerfs to wardecs which encouraged attack-minded players to form large alliances to share the increased costs and risks of being an aggressor.

The other fact to note is only about 10% of citadel losses occur in highsec, this despite the fact there are multiple Upwell structures in virtually every highsec system now. That fact argues they are in fact too safe, or tedious to attack since players aren't doing it.

As it is, attacking a citadel is not something a small corp can feasibly do given the wardec fees and risk of the free allies in a war curb stomping them for 7 days. It is expected therefore that not many balanced fights will result over them, but this is more a problem with the current wardec system than the structures themselves.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#142 - 2017-01-15 18:13:52 UTC
Bertok Francis wrote:
[
This also means that no astrahaus in all of hisec has been on a killmail ever. Most are probably undefended but all of them having been undefended is unlikely. Also, in total the astrahaus has only been on about 100 killmails (an oddly high number of their kills are from pandemic legion and pandemic horde and I am not sure why; it's about 30%)


I'm betting over 90% of highsec astras die completely undefended. You're welcome to flip through astra battle reports to make the case that they don't.

So far I've seen one BR where a scorpion and two bombers shows up to tackle a dozen pirate BS and another 8 or so proteus, which... Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Bertok Francis
Spartan Vanguard
Pandemic Horde
#143 - 2017-01-15 18:20:25 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Bertok Francis wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
APHRATTOS wrote:
So I was lookinf though killboards the other day and i noticed that there seems to have been no ships killed in high sec by an Astrahaus.
https://zkillboard.com/ship/35832/kills/
Have I missed something or are they realy that terrible?
Null sec citadels with the point defence and void bomb launchers are powerfull but in high sec an Astrahaus which on paper should be able to neut, jam and put out over 2000 dps cannot kill anything!


Correct!

Quote:
This needs a to be looked at by someone.


Incorrect!


Engage your braincase for a minute and realize that means that the defenders didn't even kill anything the citadel had engaged.

Most of those died completely undefended, because most of the people who put up structures in high sec are helpless numpties who are relying on boredom and luck as a defense strategy.

This also means that no astrahaus in all of hisec has been on a killmail ever. Most are probably undefended but all of them having been undefended is unlikely. Also, in total the astrahaus has only been on about 100 killmails (an oddly high number of their kills are from pandemic legion and pandemic horde and I am not sure why; it's about 30%)
It is not odd. Citadels are suppose to be force multipliers but who controls the grid is suppose to determine the outcome of the battle. PL can bring more players to the grid and thus generates the most kills while others either end up as those kills, or just don't show up to begin with.

In highsec, attackers either bring enough logistics to rep the damage from the structure and any defenders, or they don't show up in the first place. There is no unavoidable doomsday for them to worry about, so assuring enough support to rep through any damage is an easy calculation. That may say citadels are underpowered, but it more likely reflects the fact that the highsec mercenaries generally doing the attacking totally outclass the average highsec corp. You can blame that on the last round of nerfs to wardecs which encouraged attack-minded players to form large alliances to share the increased costs and risks of being an aggressor.

The other fact to note is only about 10% of citadel losses occur in highsec, this despite the fact there are multiple Upwell structures in virtually every highsec system now. That fact argues they are in fact too safe, or tedious to attack since players aren't doing it.

As it is, attacking a citadel is not something a small corp can feasibly do given the wardec fees and risk of the free allies in a war curb stomping them for 7 days. It is expected therefore that not many balanced fights will result over them, but this is more a problem with the current wardec system than the structures themselves.

No, I mean that a very large number of ship's killed by astrahaus's are from pandemic horde and pandemic legion. I guess the lack of losses to them is due to hisec wardeccers being the only ones who attack them and them having lots of logi that is hard to kill (I wonder if concord will kill a citadel that attacks the out of corp logi first)
Nick Knocks
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2017-01-16 23:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nick Knocks
At least the good guys win again 😘😘😘😘




Nomnomnom
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
#145 - 2017-01-17 07:46:33 UTC
A properly set up pos puts out a lot more pain/harassment than a citadel, while being far cheaper.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#146 - 2017-01-17 08:35:40 UTC
Lothar Mandrake wrote:
This game promotes itself on realism.

This is absolute horseshit. EVE does not, and has not ever even attempted to present itself as being realistic in any regard.

Note how spaceships have finite top speeds which are only a few kilometers a second.
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
#147 - 2017-01-17 12:55:22 UTC
they are as effective as ships/carriers/supers in the same pricerange, it just happened that the attackers bring a lot more to the table
Dracones
Tarsis Inc
#148 - 2017-01-18 17:08:01 UTC
Marcus Binchiette wrote:

@Dracones: The reliability of fuel supply, and specialisation of rigs and modules on a prospective EC is one of the things which you should ask the owners about. You need to get on good relations with the owners of the Citadel, and if they are not willing to give you a corporate office, tell you what rigs and service modules they have, then take your business elsewhere.

I'm considering setting up an EC. But, if I do, then I'm only going to have it open to corporations who are willing to open an office in the facility. So that I can directly communicate with them and give feedback on the status of fuel and modules. So that I can give a guaranteed and reliable service... That way, if I need to offline the manufacturing service modules I can give advanced warning - without inadvertently cancelling my customers jobs.


I have offices in both the refining astras and factory azbel I live at these days. The issue really isn't that so much as the lack of easy feedback on what's going on with the station you're living in.

It'd be nice if there were better communication tools in general centered around Citadels. A MOTD from the owner to give everyone a heads up on wars, maintenance or that maybe they're going to pull up stakes and leave the area. Or even a public bulletin board so people living in them could form a local community around them.
Estrith Hazlet
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2017-01-28 01:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Estrith Hazlet
New poster, looking through this thread... good discussion. Was planning/thinking about a Citadel and now, based on this discussion and a good look at the killboard, I think I will pass. I tend to agree with OP that these things are underpowered. Weapons should be strong enough for the investment in hull and mods to knock out a ship or two when manned. I don't mind the fact that the weapons are not automatic... I do mind that a small 2-5 man team can take an Astrahus down without a loss or two.

If I do build, I'd probably not equip it with weapons... they seem to be a waste of ISK. I really think the killboard tells the story on the Astrahus. It's not a threat whatsoever. If a larger corp. wants to attack a one-player clubhouse with 20 ships, fine. But it should be a problem to do so with a handful of ships, and its clearly not. If the clubhouse is defended, it ought to be strong enough to take down a ship or two per defensive level (shields, armor, hull). That would be fun for the attacker and defender alike. Could bump the loot drops in highsec to make it more worthwhile to balance the risk/reward while still keeping the asset safety mechanic.

Just my .02
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#150 - 2017-01-28 01:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Estrith Hazlet wrote:
New poster, looking through this thread... good discussion. Was planning/thinking about a Citadel and now, based on this discussion and a good look at the killboard, I think I will pass. I tend to agree with OP that these things are underpowered. Weapons should be strong enough for the investment in hull and mods to knock out a ship or two when manned. I don't mind the fact that the weapons are not automatic... I do mind that a small 2-5 man team can take an Astrahus down without a loss or two.

If I do build, I'd probably not equip it with weapons... they seem to be a waste of ISK. I really think the killboard tells the story on the Astrahus. It's not a threat whatsoever. If a larger corp. wants to attack a one-player clubhouse with 20 ships, fine. But it should be a problem to do so with a handful of ships, and its clearly not. If the clubhouse is defended, it ought to be strong enough to take down a ship or two per defensive level (shields, armor, hull). That would be fun for the attacker and defender alike. Could bump the loot drops in highsec to make it more worthwhile to balance the risk/reward while still keeping the asset safety mechanic.

Just my .02

Perhaps not totally relevant to the highsec situation, however if you look at the battle report in this reddit thread:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/5q9x25/escalating_entropy_whelps_more_cap_ships_against/

You'll see >90% of the damage was done by the Citadel, taking out the capitals, with just support coming from a subcap fleet. The fact that it was Capitals helped with the damage application though.

I don't know what the truth of the situation is in highsec, I just know that in general most highsec Corps are terrible at PvP and organising themselves to defend anything other than their own individual wallets. So it's probably more complicated than "Citadel defences are poor" when most corp organisation and sense of shared values are also poor.

There are definitely some very good PvP Corps/Alliances in highsec that it would be difficult to defend against, but for the most part if you keep your head down, you won't have to.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#151 - 2017-01-28 09:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Estrith Hazlet wrote:
New poster, looking through this thread... good discussion. Was planning/thinking about a Citadel and now, based on this discussion and a good look at the killboard, I think I will pass. I tend to agree with OP that these things are underpowered. Weapons should be strong enough for the investment in hull and mods to knock out a ship or two when manned. I don't mind the fact that the weapons are not automatic... I do mind that a small 2-5 man team can take an Astrahus down without a loss or two.

If I do build, I'd probably not equip it with weapons... they seem to be a waste of ISK. I really think the killboard tells the story on the Astrahus. It's not a threat whatsoever. If a larger corp. wants to attack a one-player clubhouse with 20 ships, fine. But it should be a problem to do so with a handful of ships, and its clearly not. If the clubhouse is defended, it ought to be strong enough to take down a ship or two per defensive level (shields, armor, hull). That would be fun for the attacker and defender alike. Could bump the loot drops in highsec to make it more worthwhile to balance the risk/reward while still keeping the asset safety mechanic.

Just my .02

Perhaps not totally relevant to the highsec situation, however if you look at the battle report in this reddit thread:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/5q9x25/escalating_entropy_whelps_more_cap_ships_against/

You'll see >90% of the damage was done by the Citadel, taking out the capitals, with just support coming from a subcap fleet. The fact that it was Capitals helped with the damage application though.

I don't know what the truth of the situation is in highsec, I just know that in general most highsec Corps are terrible at PvP and organising themselves to defend anything other than their own individual wallets. So it's probably more complicated than "Citadel defences are poor" when most corp organisation and sense of shared values are also poor.

There are definitely some very good PvP Corps/Alliances in highsec that it would be difficult to defend against, but for the most part if you keep your head down, you won't have to.


It is because the weapons systems available outside hisec actually work against caps and the bomb one works very well against sub caps, but in hisec we have one terrible weapon system.

But most entities in hisec are keeping their head down types and that is the issue.


EDIT:
Anyone wanting to see what turned into quite a decent discussion on asset safety, loot drops and the proliferation should read this thread to the end. I checked 48 systems for Citadels and EC's and I have looked at the loot drops from fully fitted Rataru's and I can tell you that they are worth attacking.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#152 - 2017-01-28 10:09:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Dracvlad wrote:
It is because the weapons systems available outside hisec actually work against caps...

The missiles are available in highsec aren't they?

That was the interesting thing about that battle report, although caps as the target helped with the damage application.

Just like anything in the game, each weapon/approach has its uses and key in this thread, it's limitations. That defensive systems in highsec have limited application just means other approaches are going to be more optimal and this is the issue - people wanting to use weapons not suited to the situation and then complaining when they don't work.
Estrith Hazlet
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2017-01-28 13:09:21 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
It is because the weapons systems available outside hisec actually work against caps...

The missiles are available in highsec aren't they?

That was the interesting thing about that battle report, although caps as the target helped with the damage application.

Just like anything in the game, each weapon/approach has its uses and key in this thread, it's limitations. That defensive systems in highsec have limited application just means other approaches are going to be more optimal and this is the issue - people wanting to use weapons not suited to the situation and then complaining when they don't work.


You bring up a good point. But also perhaps the exploit small crews/ships are using to pop Citadels in highsec. If the AOE weapon system is unavailable for highsec Citadels, maybe CCP needs to make an adjustment to allow different missiles/turrets to defend against small bands of subcapitals in highsec?

I really don't think the system is broken... maybe just a couple tweaks needed.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#154 - 2017-01-28 14:12:02 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
It is because the weapons systems available outside hisec actually work against caps...

The missiles are available in highsec aren't they?

That was the interesting thing about that battle report, although caps as the target helped with the damage application.

Just like anything in the game, each weapon/approach has its uses and key in this thread, it's limitations. That defensive systems in highsec have limited application just means other approaches are going to be more optimal and this is the issue - people wanting to use weapons not suited to the situation and then complaining when they don't work.


The cap specific missiles work really well against caps, they are not available and will make no difference if they were as their damage application against sub caps is lacking. The anti sub cap missiles in hisec are very poor in terms of damage, outside of hisec people are having a lot of fun with the bomb launchers.

I don't see where you made up that sentence about people not using weapons suitable fo the situation, you have only one type of DPS weapon in hisec plus of course the fighters which have no player bonus applied to them which is really odd in my opinion, but each to their own. I think your point was more to do with people only relying on the Citadel weapons systems and not having a fleet or even putting a ship out in space and I understand that point if that is what you were trying to say. In terms of that you know that most of hisec is in evasion mode, so it will take time to change.

I like the concept of having something else for sub caps and hope CCP do make some adjustments here, but I think that the weapons systems may not get changed for a while as this may be something that gets hisec players to think about banding together and fighting.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#155 - 2017-01-28 14:36:25 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
... they are not available ... The anti sub cap missiles in hisec ....

ah ok. Different missile. My mistake.
Leahzon
Swamp Donkey's United
#156 - 2017-01-29 00:38:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Leahzon
It sure sounds like the problem with citadels (especially high-sec ones) is that much larger corporations are preying upon smaller corps. Thus, guaranteeing that the defending corp cannot possibly defend their structure with or without fleet support.

Citadels, unlike POS's, do not give the small corp the option of erecting a "Dhick Star" setup, which is designed to annoy the heck out of the much larger attacking fleet such that they just give up or don't attack at all.

Now, the only way to annoy the hell out of a much larger fleet and defend your home structure is to deploy 10 or 20 or 30 citadels in the same system and make the attackers have to play a guessing game.

So basically a small corp went from a single POS with a bunch of energy neut batteries as their defense to being required to erect multiple citadels in the same system to keep the attackers guessing and annoyed...

Compared to POS warfare, this citadel defense sounds like utter stupidity.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#157 - 2017-01-29 00:44:28 UTC
Leahzon wrote:
It sure sounds like the problem with citadels (especially high-sec ones) is that much larger corporations are preying upon smaller corps. Thus, guaranteeing that the defending corp cannot possibly defend their structure with or without fleet support.

Citadels, unlike POS's, do not give the small corp the option of erecting a "Dhick Star" setup, which is designed to annoy the heck out of the much larger attacking fleet such that they just give up or don't attack at all.

Now, the only way to annoy the hell out of a much larger fleet and defend your home structure is to deploy 10 or 20 or 30 citadels in the same system and make the attackers have to play a guessing game.

So basically a small corp went from a single POS with a bunch of energy neut batteries as their defense to being required to erect multiple citadels in the same system to keep the attackers guessing and annoyed...

Compared to POS warfare, this citadel defense sounds like utter stupidity.

Citadels, unlike POS, can't be attacked 24/7.

Small corps can hire support. The wardec mechanics even allow for an infinite number of free allies. So no ISK necessary if you are good enough at communicating and developing relationships with other people.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#158 - 2017-01-29 11:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Leahzon wrote:
It sure sounds like the problem with citadels (especially high-sec ones) is that much larger corporations are preying upon smaller corps. Thus, guaranteeing that the defending corp cannot possibly defend their structure with or without fleet support.

Citadels, unlike POS's, do not give the small corp the option of erecting a "Dhick Star" setup, which is designed to annoy the heck out of the much larger attacking fleet such that they just give up or don't attack at all.

Now, the only way to annoy the hell out of a much larger fleet and defend your home structure is to deploy 10 or 20 or 30 citadels in the same system and make the attackers have to play a guessing game.

So basically a small corp went from a single POS with a bunch of energy neut batteries as their defense to being required to erect multiple citadels in the same system to keep the attackers guessing and annoyed...

Compared to POS warfare, this citadel defense sounds like utter stupidity.


For a Raitaru two people can kill them easily.

Funny enough I was doing an investigation into the Perimeter war, and it is having an affect, participation by PH in Perimeter is reducing and they are even putting up fleets called "Not a Perimeter fleet" Which means we get into the issue I raised that people will just put up a huge number of them. You can put up an Azbel with a market hub and it costs 5bn as compared to 15bn for a Fortizar, this is now being used by some people with very deep pockets. Who will win, boredom of flying fleets to keep shooting them or the massive deep pockets of market traders, my money is on the market traders...

The good part is that my salvage and P4 efforts are worth so much more.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#159 - 2017-01-29 14:02:06 UTC
Until POS are completely removed I don't think we're going to see a lot of concentrated attacks on Citadels. I do know that the current Citadel attack window and asset safety mechanics suck and offer little incentive for smaller groups to go to war with each other.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Pestilen Ratte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2017-01-29 18:48:56 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Until POS are completely removed I don't think we're going to see a lot of concentrated attacks on Citadels. I do know that the current Citadel attack window and asset safety mechanics suck and offer little incentive for smaller groups to go to war with each other.


You are right, there won't be a lot of concentrated attacks on citadels. Not unless the Very Dangerous fleet commanders are so starved of content that they resort to keeping their Very Dangerous pilots occupied with destroying them.

The thing is, folks are harsh on Eve designers for doing their best. I actually like the whole idea of the Raitaru. Yes, it is easily killed. But it only costs 700 mil, so why not? Why should folks be able to have ultra durable tools for a cheap price?

Just make sure you earn more than 700 million, and then who cares if you lose it? If you can't make 700 million in a reasonable time..... what for you need a Rautaru??

The Raitaru and the new mechanics also provide much needed fresh gameplay for industrialists and miners who need some love.

We all understand that Very Dangerous fleet commanders and their hordes of Very Dangerous pilots need content. And we understand that, despite being Very Dangerous, these folks would rather blow up easy targets than fight each other in matched combat. And we further understand that it is edgy and clever to massively outnumber opponents and win by such daring and skill.

And therefore we understand that the industrialists must be fed to the Very Dangerous pilots as evidence that they are, in fact, VERY Dangerous folks.

Personally, I have been waiting for it for a while now. the Raitaru's are up in null sec, and we have been waiting for the fleets to come get them. None have showed up. Not that we were going to make a grand fight of it. Heck, we built the things to lose them. We just want a fight. Some kind of fight.

We were so incredibly bored and starved of a fight a few weeks back that we deliberately fitted hull tanked blaster ships and charged into a medium plex, attacking a fleet our size. Needless to say, in FW space the mob descended and we got very little content. A little bit, but only a few seconds.

Everyone complains that Eve might die due to subscriber angst over drama, but I think the better fear is that Eve will never die, that it can't die. I have this vision (nightmare) of Eve remaining forever on some forgotten private server, no longer developed by anyone but still active for the few thousand folks who still love to fly around New Eden and check out all the cool stuff there is to see. Maybe blow up a few rats. every now and again, see another player. Dock up. Be safe.

I think that is the safe vision. there all always be a New Eden. The only question is whether anyone gets paid to develop it further. Given how that has worked out over the past few years, I think we really need to ask what difference, at this stage, it would make.

CCP have long struggled with a player base that is half folks who have paid thousands of dollars and feel they own a slice of New Eden, and who (perhaps reasonably) believe they ought to be able to make their monthly plex without spending too many hours at the grind. The other half is folks who are paying such a huge premium for a computer game that they expect the thing to be fun. CCP staff get crushed in the middle of these two huge forces.

Just to be clear, everyone who subscribes is paying more in 6 months than they would have paid for any other game. Ever. To own it. I'm not saying Eve is bad value for money. I'm just saying that cheap, it ain't.

Does anyone remember the monocle thing? That, right there, was CCP.

Eve will never die. It can't. Too many folks are waiting for that to happen, and Eve has always been about boring the other guy to death.