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Boarding ships in space while criminal

Author
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
#21 - 2016-12-26 14:49:24 UTC
Quote:
Also, regarding bumping, we're both aware that CCP is and has been looking and bumping mechanics due to the one-sided nature of the interaction and functional inability for a Freighter to get away from a bumper with more than one brain cell.

Everything has a counter or a direct way or set of methods to prevent certain things from happening, and that includes bumping.

Quote:
So yeah, I don't find your list particularly compelling. None of it addresses the core problem with hyperdunking, which was that a single player could do something that previously required tons of coordination. That would be roughly equivalent of a single player managing to run Incursions for decent payout, which completely removes the main challenging element of it which is gathering and managing the players... oh wait, that's pretty much what banning input broadcasting was!

I've never FC'd a gank fleet, but I would say that the beautiful orchestra that is hyperdunking takes more coordination than a regular freighter gank. In most every gank fleet you have a handful of players that are capable of assisting the FC and making sure that certain things get done. With a hyperdunk, you do it all yourself.

It is hyperdunking. Not the exact form that we previously knew, but its definitely hyperdunking. I have a different name for it in mind, but we can settle on calling it, "Hyperdunking 2.0". I plan on making a sweet video of it, and I'll gladly share it :)
Iain Cariaba
#22 - 2016-12-26 19:40:10 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
...letting a single player gank a Freighter with a hold full of Catalysts was deemed not good for the game.

I don't know about that. Freighter pilots think it's perfectly okay for a single person to stuff several billions ISK worth of goods into a papier-mâché box and have that same single person fly it several light-years to market.

If it's okay for a single player to haul the GDP of several small countries, why is it bad for a single player to be able to stop them?

Seems like a bit of a double standard there.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2016-12-26 20:53:03 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Look up hyperdunking for why they stopped this.

I am hyperdunking


I thought that was deemed an exploit?


Not that I can find. In fact...

Quote:
Since the introduction of the Bowhead freighter, we’ve become aware of a tactic that has been introduced which has become known as “Hyperdunking”. This involves leaving a grid where a criminal action occurs to draw away CONCORD and reshipping to continue shooting at a target. There’s been much discussion among members of the community regarding this tactic, and whether or not it is considered legitimate gameplay.

After meeting with members of the game design and customer support teams and discussing this in depth, we have come to the consensus that due to the fact no rules are being broken and any ship that is involved in a criminal act is being destroyed by CONCORD as intended, that this tactic is simply an unintended but legitimate use of new game mechanics, and is not in breach of the rules. Tactics similar to this have been used with previous hulls before the Bowhead was introduced, and have been considered perfectly legitimate in the past.

With this in mind, at this time we do not consider this tactic to be in breach of the game rules, and as such our customer support team will not be offering reimbursements for hulls lost in this manner.

Players are also reminded that if someone is criminally flagged, they are fair game to be attacked in self-defense. Feel free to use this to your advantage.--CCP Falcon

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2016-12-26 20:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
...letting a single player gank a Freighter with a hold full of Catalysts was deemed not good for the game.

I don't know about that. Freighter pilots think it's perfectly okay for a single person to stuff several billions ISK worth of goods into a papier-mâché box and have that same single person fly it several light-years to market.

If it's okay for a single player to haul the GDP of several small countries, why is it bad for a single player to be able to stop them?

Seems like a bit of a double standard there.


Agreed, just about every point Cade brings up can be applied to ganking in general. And no alts are not necessary, but they might be more efficient if one is going to try and transfer stuff from the bumped ship to a non-bumped ship (you don't have to ping for them to get on line, come from many jumps away, etc.).

As for why hyperdunking was patched out I can find no explanation from CCP. So any explanation proposed by anyone, aside from a Dev or somebody else "official", is likely just their own personal views.

Edit: And if the OP has found a way to hyperdunk once again, well done.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#25 - 2016-12-26 21:48:56 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


I thought that was deemed an exploit?


That's the first time it was brought up, not the time that they stopped it after it was getting too prolific. So that's an out of date quote.

I can't recall if they stated any form of hyper dunking was specifically an exploit or not but given they changed game code to stop it, it's probably an exploit to be able to do it now since you are circumventing a code change.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
Transgress
#26 - 2016-12-26 22:24:03 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


I thought that was deemed an exploit?


That's the first time it was brought up, not the time that they stopped it after it was getting too prolific. So that's an out of date quote.

I can't recall if they stated any form of hyper dunking was specifically an exploit or not but given they changed game code to stop it, it's probably an exploit to be able to do it now since you are circumventing a code change.

they didnt, they just patched out the ability to do it , or thought they did if you take faylee at his word.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2016-12-26 22:39:23 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


I thought that was deemed an exploit?


That's the first time it was brought up, not the time that they stopped it after it was getting too prolific. So that's an out of date quote.

I can't recall if they stated any form of hyper dunking was specifically an exploit or not but given they changed game code to stop it, it's probably an exploit to be able to do it now since you are circumventing a code change.

they didnt, they just patched out the ability to do it , or thought they did if you take faylee at his word.


Yes, as far as I can tell there was no explanation for the change. Maybe they felt it was an exploit, IDK, but they never deemed it an exploit and if one can find away to do it without circumventing the code.....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
#28 - 2016-12-26 23:19:34 UTC
There was no explanation or reason for the change from CCP. All we had to,go by was their official statement on it and many many support tickets put in on the subject. Everything was kosher, until it was...not. I was on SISI one day testing something for hyperdunking and got an error message when trying to board a ship as a criminal.

See this is how CCP treats those of us push the limits of the game in creative and neat ways.

Hyperdunking is not listed as an exploit and is still very possible.
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#29 - 2016-12-27 01:17:46 UTC
I think Japanese women are hawt.

Thanks for listening...
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#30 - 2016-12-27 16:23:25 UTC
Everyone stop feeding the troll please
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
#31 - 2016-12-27 17:34:59 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Everyone stop feeding the troll please

How is this a troll? Im right.
Nimi Tazinas
Doomheim
#32 - 2016-12-28 06:51:06 UTC
The only thing CCP patched out was the ability of a pilot with a criminal timer to board a ship in space in highsec. It was the right decision and the choice with the least impact on any other playstyles. It didn't affect regular gankers who typically board a ship in a station and then undock to draw Concord.

Faylee is crying to get that rescinded, which will never happen. You had a good thing going but got greedy and broke CCP's will to allow it to continue.

What was the last straw?
A freighter was bumped straight from the Jita 4-4 undock by 2 Machs, then pushed offgrid and then subsequently hyperdunked. A webber ship that came to help was ganked by neutral gankers to avoid interference. Gank ships remained in the area to thwart any possible rescue. The freighter pilot had 0% chance to counter this.

Faylee Freir wrote:

Hyperdunking is not listed as an exploit and is still very possible.


Then there is nothing to "fix".

/thread
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2016-12-28 07:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Nimi Tazinas wrote:
The only thing CCP patched out was the ability of a pilot with a criminal timer to board a ship in space in highsec. It was the right decision and the choice with the least impact on any other playstyles. It didn't affect regular gankers who typically board a ship in a station and then undock to draw Concord.

Faylee is crying to get that rescinded, which will never happen. You had a good thing going but got greedy and broke CCP's will to allow it to continue.

What was the last straw?
A freighter was bumped straight from the Jita 4-4 undock by 2 Machs, then pushed offgrid and then subsequently hyperdunked. A webber ship that came to help was ganked by neutral gankers to avoid interference. Gank ships remained in the area to thwart any possible rescue. The freighter pilot had 0% chance to counter this.

Faylee Freir wrote:

Hyperdunking is not listed as an exploit and is still very possible.


Then there is nothing to "fix".

/thread


So let me get this straight...the person(s) doing this "hyperdunk" were good...so therefore it needed to be patched out? Yeah, that is a totally valid reason. Roll

BTW, how much was in the fool's freighter?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
#34 - 2016-12-28 07:39:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Faylee Freir
Nimi Tazinas wrote:
The only thing CCP patched out was the ability of a pilot with a criminal timer to board a ship in space in highsec. It was the right decision and the choice with the least impact on any other playstyles. It didn't affect regular gankers who typically board a ship in a station and then undock to draw Concord.

Faylee is crying to get that rescinded, which will never happen. You had a good thing going but got greedy and broke CCP's will to allow it to continue.

What was the last straw?
A freighter was bumped straight from the Jita 4-4 undock by 2 Machs, then pushed offgrid and then subsequently hyperdunked. A webber ship that came to help was ganked by neutral gankers to avoid interference. Gank ships remained in the area to thwart any possible rescue. The freighter pilot had 0% chance to counter this.

Faylee Freir wrote:

Hyperdunking is not listed as an exploit and is still very possible.


Then there is nothing to "fix".

/thread

All it amounted to was a clever use of game mechanics that was previously deemed as kosher by CCP. Sure there was a lot of confusion and whining that resulted from being hyperdunked, but it was a new thing and is infinitely easier to counter than a regular freighter gank. I don't think CCP has issues with single players doing group activity type things as long as it's not being exploited or abused by a solo character. Took a handful of characters that you had to perfectly time and orchestrate in order to execute the objective.

So I was being greedy in targeting 3-5b+ anti-tanked freighters and jump freighters? Give me a break.

The example you used as the hyperdunk that was the last stray for CCP is dumb. If that's true, then the freighter pilot is an absolute idiot. Once you are being bumped, webs won't save your ship. He could have brought an Osprey or Basilisk and orbited at range with a prop mod and been un-touchable. You say he had 0% chance to counter it, but I just told you exactly how to counter it - bring literally 1 logi. Just a basic alt with **** skills.

What's even more hilarious about this was back before the grid changes the Jita 4-4 grid was HUGE. Even when shrinking the grid as much as possible, it still was a huge job to push a freighter that far. So what does that mean? That means that a freighter was being bumped for a LONG, LONG time right in the view of every vulture, whiteknight, and shitlord to see. You're telling me that this person was only able to muster up 1 ship and that it was a webber? Nah, try again.

I never said I want hyperdunking "fixed". I said I want to be able to board ships in space while criminal again because the logic behind the change doesn't make sense. You bears just hated it because it's one more way that freighters and innocent babies could get ganked out of their own PURE STUPIDITY.

I hyperdunked 5 jump freighters. 5. Five. One of them was in Perimeter, right on the Jita gate. How. Bad. Do. You. Have. To. Be? I hyperdunked a 50b FCON jump freighter. A major nullsec alliance couldn't give that poor idiot an emergency cyno for 50b in players assets he was moving? Go get in a bump mach and sit on the Peri gate in Jita and bump some Jump Freighters. I guarantee that 9/10 of them will almost instantly jump out. I can't believe people felt sorry for these pilots.
Nimi Tazinas
Doomheim
#35 - 2016-12-28 07:56:45 UTC
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
#36 - 2016-12-28 08:09:42 UTC
Nimi Tazinas wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/0WOLc3t.gif

Thanks, was getting tears all over my keyboard. Funny that none of the responses in this thread make any sort of sense in reason or logic as to why boarding ships in space while criminal should have been taken away.

I will agree, that CCP isn't likely at all to revert the change. So I'll do what Globby couldn't, and keep my mouth shut about my hyperdunking 2.0 so CCP doesn't nerf me again.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2016-12-28 08:14:01 UTC
How much did the idiot who got hyperdunk have in his freighter...and was it you?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
#38 - 2016-12-28 09:22:36 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
How much did the idiot who got hyperdunk have in his freighter...and was it you?

I remember dunking 1 person, pushing them off the Jita undock like that but I can't remember who it was or how much. I assume it was me though because me and my partner Soban were really the only ones that did it out of Jita.
Nimi Tazinas
Doomheim
#39 - 2016-12-28 10:09:39 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
Nimi Tazinas wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/0WOLc3t.gif

Thanks, was getting tears all over my keyboard. Funny that none of the responses in this thread make any sort of sense in reason or logic as to why boarding ships in space while criminal should have been taken away.

I will agree, that CCP isn't likely at all to revert the change. So I'll do what Globby couldn't, and keep my mouth shut about my hyperdunking 2.0 so CCP doesn't nerf me again.


It was patched in Parallax.
You have your answers already.
I am not doing the legwork for you.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
#40 - 2016-12-28 14:37:02 UTC
Nimi Tazinas wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
Nimi Tazinas wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/0WOLc3t.gif

Thanks, was getting tears all over my keyboard. Funny that none of the responses in this thread make any sort of sense in reason or logic as to why boarding ships in space while criminal should have been taken away.

I will agree, that CCP isn't likely at all to revert the change. So I'll do what Globby couldn't, and keep my mouth shut about my hyperdunking 2.0 so CCP doesn't nerf me again.


It was patched in Parallax.
You have your answers already.
I am not doing the legwork for you.

Right, I see a quote from CCP Terminus and I think that's funny. Do you think CCP Terminus has ever hyperdunked? Do you think any CCP employee has ever hyperdunked? How would they be able to properly gauge exactly how easy it is? Oh, what about the intelligence part... Right, so what's not smart about learning how to manipulate grid sizes, learning how to keep the freighter bumped slow enough for your bowhead and pod to keep up, learning how to "fix" concord when you mess up a pull, and minmaxing bomber fits to perfection?

How can CCP make these assertions and then make a change to the game like this? Yes I know the devs are in charge of making these changes and it's "their game", but this change makes no sense. Yes I can read the writing and see their excuses and justification, but it's wrong.

I've never ran incursions or level 5 missions, so do you think that if one day I popped off the pillow and thought that I might have some good changes that it would be a good idea? Probably not. Same thing applies to CCP with an area of the game they obviously have little to no experience with. It's already widely known that CCP's players know more about the game than they do, so yeah. I do get mad when CCP want to make a change to a part of the game they know absolutely nothing about.