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Boarding ships in space while criminal

Author
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
BLACKFLAG.
#1 - 2016-12-24 10:23:22 UTC
Hey CCP. Allow me to board a ship in space while criminal. Im a glutton for punishment.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2016-12-24 13:12:05 UTC
Look up hyperdunking for why they stopped this.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
BLACKFLAG.
#3 - 2016-12-24 13:34:48 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Look up hyperdunking for why they stopped this.

I am hyperdunking
Aleksey Chadov
Dreamweb Industries
Novus Ordo.
#4 - 2016-12-24 13:54:47 UTC
Hyperdunking is gone. Suck it up already.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
BLACKFLAG.
#5 - 2016-12-24 14:29:41 UTC
Aleksey Chadov wrote:
Hyperdunking is gone. Suck it up already.

Its not gone.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2016-12-24 14:41:08 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Look up hyperdunking for why they stopped this.

I am hyperdunking


I thought that was deemed an exploit?
Cade Windstalker
#7 - 2016-12-24 15:18:24 UTC
OP is pretty clearly trolling, or they just got back after a long hiatus and tried to do this and are now sad and therefore complaining on the forums.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#8 - 2016-12-24 15:35:27 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Look up hyperdunking for why they stopped this.

Because a really niche, cost-ineffective form of suicide ganking that barely ever happened was apparently a huge problem.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
BLACKFLAG.
#9 - 2016-12-24 16:02:17 UTC
Simpleminded fools. How little you know about mechanics.
Cade Windstalker
#10 - 2016-12-24 16:54:11 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Look up hyperdunking for why they stopped this.

Because a really niche, cost-ineffective form of suicide ganking that barely ever happened was apparently a huge problem.


Actually no, it was very very cost effective, because the single biggest cost for a suicide gank is the number of pilots required to gank a well tanked ship. This negated that nearly completely.

Faylee Freir wrote:
Simpleminded fools. How little you know about mechanics.


Yes, lets insult everyone else in the thread. That's sure to get them on your side Roll.

Seriously though, I assume you're talking about keeping someone bumped until you can gank them the rest of the way. That whole interaction is something CCP are looking at changing, so that's not a reason for this to come back. Also even if you're doing that the extra time can be used by a smart pilot to evac some or all of his items. I know someone who managed to get 10bil off a Bowhead before it went splodey-pop to a bomber gank because of the time mechanics like this allowed him.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
BLACKFLAG.
#11 - 2016-12-24 18:33:33 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Look up hyperdunking for why they stopped this.

Because a really niche, cost-ineffective form of suicide ganking that barely ever happened was apparently a huge problem.


Actually no, it was very very cost effective, because the single biggest cost for a suicide gank is the number of pilots required to gank a well tanked ship. This negated that nearly completely.

Faylee Freir wrote:
Simpleminded fools. How little you know about mechanics.


Yes, lets insult everyone else in the thread. That's sure to get them on your side Roll.

Seriously though, I assume you're talking about keeping someone bumped until you can gank them the rest of the way. That whole interaction is something CCP are looking at changing, so that's not a reason for this to come back. Also even if you're doing that the extra time can be used by a smart pilot to evac some or all of his items. I know someone who managed to get 10bil off a Bowhead before it went splodey-pop to a bomber gank because of the time mechanics like this allowed him.

Yes its cost effective, but so is using catalysts with a load of F1 monkeys and/or using,12-14 bombers with a handful of F1 monkeys. Also a fully tanked freighter or jumpfreighter is a huge deterrance for someone wanting to hyperdunk.

No, Im not talking about normal ganks. Hyperdunking in its essence is still very do-able. To show how little you actually know, I will explain why its utterly hilarious why everyone cried about this:

All you needed to do to stop a hyperdunk was literally 1 t1 logi or something like a stabber to bump the bowhead away from the freighter. You could also bring an insta-locking svipul to pop the gankers pod. So being that the majority of all hyperdunks happened within a few jumps of a major trade hub, batphoning for you sweet white-knights isnt out of reach.

So I will continue to insult those of you that have no idea at all how to hyperdunk, how involved of an activity it was, how insanely easy it was to interrupt by literally 1 person, and how much time and effort it took to bump a freighter off grid. Hyperdunking is still very alive and well to this very day and thats why those of us that know how to bend and manipulate ****** mechanics to our favor will always be in a better spot to determine what is and isnt fair. Not to mention that knowledge and an understanding of mechanics outs you at a huge advantage in this game... I feel qualified to call you a moron. I understand that CCP wont revert this change, and it doesnt bother me. I will continue hyperdunking under CCPs nose when theu thought they have thwarted it. So cheer on, poor whiteknight baby and revel in the fact that at least 1 person is still hyperdunking.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2016-12-25 05:53:36 UTC
My hypothesis: OP got ganked, believes he was hyperdunked, is now trying to aggro CCP to fix problem which does not exist.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Cade Windstalker
#13 - 2016-12-25 06:24:17 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
Yes its cost effective, but so is using catalysts with a load of F1 monkeys and/or using,12-14 bombers with a handful of F1 monkeys. Also a fully tanked freighter or jumpfreighter is a huge deterrance for someone wanting to hyperdunk.


In practice... not really so much. This was shown by the willingness of people to engage in the practice to a wide enough degree that CCP patched it out. Also since the only real reason to want to board a ship after going GCC was hyperdunking and similar mechanics there's no reason to request this change unless you want that back.

Also, as I said, the hardest part of that is getting the 70 or so Catalysts you need to take down a fully tanked ship. Bombers aren't bad, but they're still not as ISK efficient as a larger number of Catalysts can be because the hulls are about 20 times more expensive but only output around 2-3 times the DPS (skills and resists on the target depending).

Faylee Freir wrote:
No, Im not talking about normal ganks. Hyperdunking in its essence is still very do-able. To show how little you actually know, I will explain why its utterly hilarious why everyone cried about this:

All you needed to do to stop a hyperdunk was literally 1 t1 logi or something like a stabber to bump the bowhead away from the freighter. You could also bring an insta-locking svipul to pop the gankers pod. So being that the majority of all hyperdunks happened within a few jumps of a major trade hub, batphoning for you sweet white-knights isnt out of reach.


Again, in practice this isn't feasible for a lot of players and wasn't often done. The only way most people are going to be able to respond to something like this is with an alt, and if an alt is the only way to deal with something it's probably a bad mechanic because it creates a distinct and large advantage to a small subset of the active playerbase.

Faylee Freir wrote:
So I will continue to insult those of you that have no idea at all how to hyperdunk, how involved of an activity it was, how insanely easy it was to interrupt by literally 1 person, and how much time and effort it took to bump a freighter off grid. Hyperdunking is still very alive and well to this very day and thats why those of us that know how to bend and manipulate ****** mechanics to our favor will always be in a better spot to determine what is and isnt fair. Not to mention that knowledge and an understanding of mechanics outs you at a huge advantage in this game... I feel qualified to call you a moron. I understand that CCP wont revert this change, and it doesnt bother me. I will continue hyperdunking under CCPs nose when theu thought they have thwarted it. So cheer on, poor whiteknight baby and revel in the fact that at least 1 person is still hyperdunking.


Unless you care to explain what the current state of the mechanics actually are in your view then this thread is pretty much dead since you're just sitting there insulting people and claiming you know best, which pretty obviously isn't the case since you seem to be looking at the game through a gank-shaped peep-hole.

That either means you're pretty sure what you're doing is an exploit and could get you banned, or might be declared one and then you can't do it anymore. In either case that's not a terribly strong argument for allowing GCC players to board ships. Neither is "well CCP missed a way we can still do this thing so it should be made easier."

Honestly it kind of sounds like you just made this thread to lord your imaginary internet spaceship 1337-ness over others which is... kinda sad actually, lol.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
BLACKFLAG.
#14 - 2016-12-25 07:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Faylee Freir
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
Yes its cost effective, but so is using catalysts with a load of F1 monkeys and/or using,12-14 bombers with a handful of F1 monkeys. Also a fully tanked freighter or jumpfreighter is a huge deterrance for someone wanting to hyperdunk.


In practice... not really so much. This was shown by the willingness of people to engage in the practice to a wide enough degree that CCP patched it out.

No I can tell you as one of 4 people that were hyperdunking that unless the freighter is carrying 10b+ and youre in a 0.5 its not worth it to go after tanked freighters or jump freighters.

Quote:
Again, in practice this isn't feasible for a lot of players and wasn't often done. The only way most people are going to be able to respond to something like this is with an alt, and if an alt is the only way to deal with something it's probably a bad mechanic because it creates a distinct and large advantage to a small subset of the active playerbase.

Whats not feasible about having support for a capital class ship that is hauling 3-5b+ and is extremely vulnerable? Also operating in Jita and in the pipes theres a lot of anti-gankers and white-knights that knew who the primary ones were that hyperdunked, amd knew how to stop it. Cant tell you how many 9b+ ganks Ive had ruined when I was a few volleys away from popping it only to have a WK or the guys friends show up.

Do you have an excuse for the 5 jump freighters I was able to hyperdunk? Im telling you that getting yourself out of a hyperdunk is extremely simple and only the worst fall victim.

Quote:
Unless you care to explain what the current state of the mechanics actually are in your view then this thread is pretty much dead since you're just sitting there insulting people and claiming you know best, which pretty obviously isn't the case since you seem to be looking at the game through a gank-shaped peep-hole.

That either means you're pretty sure what you're doing is an exploit and could get you banned, or might be declared one and then you can't do it anymore. In either case that's not a terribly strong argument for allowing GCC players to board ships. Neither is "well CCP missed a way we can still do this thing so it should be made easier."

Mechanics are basically still the same. The only way this would be considered an exploit is if CCP deemed bumping as an exploit.

So heres my justification for bringing back boading ships while GCC:

- Only a small number of pilots were actively doing it (around 4)
- The act of hyperdunking is hilariously easy for anyone to interrupt
- Not all freighters or jump freighters were worth the time and energy to dunk
- Jump Freighters can easily cyno out if in jump range (and should never really get bumped in the first place)
- Regularly involved scooping loot with your own freighter, causing it to go suspect
- Was a big investment for a ~chance~ that the loot would drop
- Took skill to perform low velocity bumps and multi-task

Thats a decent list for starters.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#15 - 2016-12-25 13:26:05 UTC
ain't no dunking like a hyperdunking and the hyperdunking don't stop
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#16 - 2016-12-25 13:28:41 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Faylee Freir wrote:
Simpleminded fools. How little you know about mechanics.


Yes, lets insult everyone else in the thread. That's sure to get them on your side Roll

you started it, unless I'm wrong about how the flow of time works http://i.imgur.com/hId6NJ5.png
Cade Windstalker
#17 - 2016-12-25 20:18:48 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
No I can tell you as one of 4 people that were hyperdunking that unless the freighter is carrying 10b+ and youre in a 0.5 its not worth it to go after tanked freighters or jump freighters.


Gee, it's almost like most of the ganking in the game period takes place in .5 systems and there's a .5 chokepoint called Uedama... Lol

Faylee Freir wrote:
Whats not feasible about having support for a capital class ship that is hauling 3-5b+ and is extremely vulnerable? Also operating in Jita and in the pipes theres a lot of anti-gankers and white-knights that knew who the primary ones were that hyperdunked, amd knew how to stop it. Cant tell you how many 9b+ ganks Ive had ruined when I was a few volleys away from popping it only to have a WK or the guys friends show up.

Do you have an excuse for the 5 jump freighters I was able to hyperdunk? Im telling you that getting yourself out of a hyperdunk is extremely simple and only the worst fall victim.


First off, Freighters aren't actually capitals. They don't have any of the benefits or restrictions of a true Capital and don't require or benefit from the Capital Ships skill.

That's sort of beside the point though, as I said in practice people simply don't support Freighters like that because it's incredibly boring to do for another player. There are certainly random people willing to mess up your gank (hyper or otherwise) but that's hardly reliable, and the same goes for having friends in the vicinity able to help. That's just not something CCP could balance around, and as I said previously the practice of hyperdunking seriously messed up with risk/reward balance of hauling.

Faylee Freir wrote:
Mechanics are basically still the same. The only way this would be considered an exploit is if CCP deemed bumping as an exploit.

So heres my justification for bringing back boading ships while GCC:

- Only a small number of pilots were actively doing it (around 4)
- The act of hyperdunking is hilariously easy for anyone to interrupt
- Not all freighters or jump freighters were worth the time and energy to dunk
- Jump Freighters can easily cyno out if in jump range (and should never really get bumped in the first place)
- Regularly involved scooping loot with your own freighter, causing it to go suspect
- Was a big investment for a ~chance~ that the loot would drop
- Took skill to perform low velocity bumps and multi-task

Thats a decent list for starters.


responses:


  • Volume doesn't mean it wasn't a broken mechanic.
  • We've been over this, normal ganks are pretty hilariously easy to interrupt as well, if you happen to have a Blackbird sitting on the gate, but that doesn't commonly happen (and the BB itself has about a 50/50 shot of just getting ganked if the gankers are paying attention) so this doesn't justify Hyperdunking as a mechanic.
  • So? Your argument here seems to be "well it's not going to mess up *all* trade so..."
  • This just flat out doesn't matter. For a start, it's situational, and gets back to the "need alt to counter mechanic" argument, since you need a cyno in the right place at the right time. If anything this is actually *less* practical than having logi on-grid or something cloaked up to pop the pod.
  • This is just a blatant lie. You can scoop most loot a Freighter is likely to be carrying with 100% safety using a DST and another alt in a noob ship. In fact I know for a fact you're aware of this as you made a thread complaining about it several months back. Even if you do scoop the loot with a freighter you're going to either be off-grid from the gate (because bumping) or so far away as to be functionally safe from retaliation as you align, hit loot all, and warp in the space of about 1 second.
  • You and I both know how these economics work. The functional risk for a gank with many loot stacks is tiny, and across multiple probably profitable ganks you can make quite a bit of money.
  • Isn't really much of an argument either. Lots of things in the game take skill, but that doesn't mean they're good for the game and letting a single player gank a Freighter with a hold full of Catalysts was deemed not good for the game.


Also, regarding bumping, we're both aware that CCP is and has been looking and bumping mechanics due to the one-sided nature of the interaction and functional inability for a Freighter to get away from a bumper with more than one brain cell.

So yeah, I don't find your list particularly compelling. None of it addresses the core problem with hyperdunking, which was that a single player could do something that previously required tons of coordination. That would be roughly equivalent of a single player managing to run Incursions for decent payout, which completely removes the main challenging element of it which is gathering and managing the players... oh wait, that's pretty much what banning input broadcasting was! Big smile

So yeah, unless you have a reason letting a single player pull this off is somehow fair and balanced I think you have a pretty poor argument for your case here.

Also yeah, nothing you've described here is "hyperdunking" since the one thing that made a dunk/gank "hyper" was the ship switching.
Cade Windstalker
#18 - 2016-12-25 20:20:40 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Faylee Freir wrote:
Simpleminded fools. How little you know about mechanics.


Yes, lets insult everyone else in the thread. That's sure to get them on your side Roll

you started it, unless I'm wrong about how the flow of time works http://i.imgur.com/hId6NJ5.png


I was generally snarking, nothing in there was intended as a personal attack. If OP feels insulted by anything in that post then I apologize, it wasn't intended to be mean spirited, I honestly figured they were trolling or back from hiatus.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
BLACKFLAG.
#19 - 2016-12-26 14:46:57 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Gee, it's almost like most of the ganking in the game period takes place in .5 systems and there's a .5 chokepoint called Uedama... Lol

Obviously if you're looking to gank, a 0.5 is most desired. Uedama and the pipe were always bad for hyperdunking because of how notorious it was for ganking in general... So you saw a lot more white knights that will start looking for you once they see you in local.

Quote:
First off, Freighters aren't actually capitals. They don't have any of the benefits or restrictions of a true Capital and don't require or benefit from the Capital Ships skill.

They are capital class ships and have been categorized as such by CCP. Whatever arbitrary reason you want to use to make it fit your narrative is fine though.

Quote:
That's sort of beside the point though, as I said in practice people simply don't support Freighters like that because it's incredibly boring to do for another player. There are certainly random people willing to mess up your gank (hyper or otherwise) but that's hardly reliable, and the same goes for having friends in the vicinity able to help. That's just not something CCP could balance around, and as I said previously the practice of hyperdunking seriously messed up with risk/reward balance of hauling.

I agree that essentially being a space trucker isn't the most exciting way to play the game, and that it's a necessity for a lot of things that go on in the game (especially for lowsec and nullsec alliances). I don't think that because the activity of hauling stuff is boring is a good excuse to provide proper support and protection for your chosen career and investments... Especially when the prime targets for hyperdunking are triple expanded freighters hauling more than 3-5b (depending on the system). It's not in the "spirit of eve online" to give these players a pass on an activity they have added immense risk, then state that they shouldn't have to have proper support for these capital class ships.

Some of the people looking to mess with hyperdunks were random, but we had quite the following of pilots with real hate-boners that would find us and stop us almost daily. Not to mention there's an entire community that is built around stopping ganks. I will also note that the skill, resources, and pilots required to stop a hyperdunk vs a normal freighter gank is really no comparison. AG try and fail all the time to stop ganks, while anytime a white knight or AG showed up to foil one of my hyperdunks, it was over.

Quote:
  • Volume doesn't mean it wasn't a broken mechanic.
  • I don't see it as being a broken mechanic.

    Quote:
  • We've been over this, normal ganks are pretty hilariously easy to interrupt as well, if you happen to have a Blackbird sitting on the gate, but that doesn't commonly happen (and the BB itself has about a 50/50 shot of just getting ganked if the gankers are paying attention) so this doesn't justify Hyperdunking as a mechanic.
  • As I stated earlier, hyperdunks are infinitely easier to stop than a normal gank. You're just plain wrong about this and a blackbird isn't going to stop a gank. You are aware almost everytime a freighter is ganked they account for logi and jams? The fact that a single pilot in an Osprey can stop a hyperdunk proves my point.
    Faylee Freir
    Slavers Union
    BLACKFLAG.
    #20 - 2016-12-26 14:48:33 UTC
    Cade Windstalker wrote:
  • So? Your argument here seems to be "well it's not going to mess up *all* trade so..."
  • My argument was that hyperdunking wasn't some new epidemic of meta that was taking all the trade hubs and pipes by storm. It was literally like 4 people and paled in comparison to other ganking activities.

    Quote:
  • This just flat out doesn't matter. For a start, it's situational, and gets back to the "need alt to counter mechanic" argument, since you need a cyno in the right place at the right time. If anything this is actually *less* practical than having logi on-grid or something cloaked up to pop the pod.
  • It does matter, because I dunked 5 jump freighters. You literally have no business owning a JF if you don't have at least 1 cyno alt. Sorry, I know you want to believe that all activities shouldn't require alts, but you'll be hard pressed to find anyone recommend that someone get into a JF without their own cyno alt. Having an emergency cyno ready isn't really a counter, it's just a basic part of owning a JF.

    Quote:
  • This is just a blatant lie. You can scoop most loot a Freighter is likely to be carrying with 100% safety using a DST and another alt in a noob ship. In fact I know for a fact you're aware of this as you made a thread complaining about it several months back. Even if you do scoop the loot with a freighter you're going to either be off-grid from the gate (because bumping) or so far away as to be functionally safe from retaliation as you align, hit loot all, and warp in the space of about 1 second.
  • Freighters are required for plenty of ganks. I have also had a suspect freighter of mine get tackled and killed. I still hold the same opinion about DST scooping, which is why I'm of the camp that thinks gankers should grow a pair and go suspect in a freighter :)

    Quote:
  • You and I both know how these economics work. The functional risk for a gank with many loot stacks is tiny, and across multiple probably profitable ganks you can make quite a bit of money.
  • Obviously it's profitable, otherwise the amount of people ganking would be negligible. The loot fairy is fickle though, and RNG has pooped on me enough for it to be something that I worry about.

    Quote:
  • Isn't really much of an argument either. Lots of things in the game take skill, but that doesn't mean they're good for the game and letting a single player gank a Freighter with a hold full of Catalysts was deemed not good for the game.
  • The circumstances in which a freighter or jump freighter can find himself in position to be a prime candidate for a good dunking is enough to justify a solo or small group activity such as this. I seriously doubt you've seen it performed from start to finish, much less know the fine details that make it a beautiful work of art.
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