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Beta Clones
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-12-18 21:10:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I'm not the first one to suggest this, but I am--as far as I'm aware--the first to flesh it out.
Forum Thread: How about a Beta clone?



The basic idea is it would be a cheaper subscription offering more access than an alpha clone, but still limited over an omega subscription. My version here gives very little access in total but grants a few crucial bits that will allow betas to get much further than alphas. It's more similar to alpha than to omega. The price would probably be fairly low as well, perhaps 1/3rd of the omega subscription amount. I'd pay that.


BONUS ACCESS

  • racial frigate, destroyer, and cruiser to 5
  • racial tech 1 battlecruiser to 3 and maybe battleship to 1
  • all races' frigates/destroyers but alt races just to 2
  • all races' small weapons, but fewer support skills for alt race weapons
  • all races' industrials to 1, own race to 4
  • ORE industrials - mining barges and Noctis to 2
  • pirate faction frigates
  • tech 2 frigates of own race except stealth bomber, t2 ship skills only to 1
  • T1/T2 cloak but not covert ops cloak
  • Astrometric Pinpointing 3
  • all races' EWAR modules but only own races' skill: Weapon Destabilization, Signal Dispersion, Signal Suppression, OR Signature Focusing
  • all tech 2 modules including weapons, but weapon specialization skills only to 1
  • Laboratory Operation to 1, Research Project Management to 1, Mass Production to 5, Retail to 3 - more jobs/orders
  • some refining skills
  • Remote Sensing and Planetology 3
  • Command Center Upgrades to 4 but Interplanetary Consolidation only to 1 (2 planets)
  • Wing Command 3
  • Command Bursts - command skills to 4 (for duration), no specialist skills
  • Corporation Management 4 and Anchoring 3 - can help set up POS/citadel but cannot control one
  • Cynosural Field Generator
  • Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 (aside from its bonus, gives something to sink skill points into)



CANNOT USE

  • entosis links
  • most tech 2 ships
  • large mobile warp disruptors
  • pirate faction cruisers and destroyers
  • covert ops cloaking
  • bombs
  • interdictors
  • covert cyno generator
  • capital ships including Orca and Freighter
  • skills that allow order/job changing at range
  • control tower/citadel anchoring/control

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lugh Crow-Slave
#2 - 2016-12-18 21:33:28 UTC
oooh more premium stages ^.^

why not call them what they are rather than these lame PR names to keep things clear

sliver member

gold member

platinum member

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#3 - 2016-12-18 21:49:08 UTC
This could run nearly all end game PvE content easily. So No.
Wimzy Chent-Shi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2016-12-18 21:49:16 UTC
So high sec lvl sub? Nice. But the issue is that BS is a huge stepping stone enabling incursions and putting self-PLEXability within reasonable reach. (yes, if you are smart you can PLEX yourself as alpha easy, np, duh, but the effort.. uh)

Come get some cancer @ my blog !

"This clash of opinions is like cutting onions. We are creating something here, that's productive, ...and then there is also salt." -Wimzy 2016
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-12-18 21:54:02 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
This could run nearly all end game PvE content easily. So No.

I wouldn't go that far, but it might need to be trimmed a bit. But most end game PVE content requires some pretty advanced fittings to do it on a tech 1 ship. For incursion sites, I have trouble getting in a group if I fly anything short of a pirate faction battleship. Burner missions won't be soloed with such low skills. Performance in any other area will be strongly diminished without access to strategic cruisers, HACS, command ships, or marauders.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Wimzy Chent-Shi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-12-18 22:08:53 UTC
T2 tank rokh can incursion with the best of them, just because you run into questionable characters that do little else than stroking their ego just like their genitals does not make it impossible and it is in fact very within reach. (I do not like those people much)
I am the author of PLEX within 30 days guide and I have success stories to back it up.
Once they can T2 tank a battleship they are on the road to success (the pace is slightly slower than in a pirate battleship indeed, but possible).

But setting that aside you also encourage people to invest time and effort into boxing or "not really boxing" multiple alphas for a much more reasonable profit. And unless it is considered so already "a must have" for every omega player.

Come get some cancer @ my blog !

"This clash of opinions is like cutting onions. We are creating something here, that's productive, ...and then there is also salt." -Wimzy 2016
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2016-12-18 22:14:09 UTC
Don't forget this would be a paying subscription. There's a large difference between [barely can make good money with skill] and [can easily make good money with skills but no skill]. Omegas will still make much more money than betas.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#8 - 2016-12-19 14:04:52 UTC
There is Trial(Alpha) and there is Sub(Omega) we don't need more

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2016-12-19 14:53:13 UTC
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:
So high sec lvl sub? Nice. But the issue is that BS is a huge stepping stone enabling incursions and putting self-PLEXability within reasonable reach. (yes, if you are smart you can PLEX yourself as alpha easy, np, duh, but the effort.. uh)


The effort is only really harder for the first PLEX. Then you have access to everything for a month so you can re-PLEX forever. The difference between this beta proposal and alpha is not really big tbh. Running the battleship you think make it easier will require training and skill purchase. Long term you come out ahead but if your goal is to PLEX, then alpha can do it.
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#10 - 2016-12-19 15:03:11 UTC
I don't understand why.
blargderp
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2016-12-19 16:07:39 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:
I don't understand why.

It's an attempt from the F2P "I want more" audience to compromise with the "just pay for the game, what are you poor eck dee" audience.

The only issue I have with the alpha restrictions is the fact that alphas are restricted to a singular race. In my opinion if you have the skills already trained for cross-race (within alpha clone restrictions) then you should be able to use those skills, but you can't train for them when in an alpha state. None of this middle-ground subscription nonsense.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#12 - 2016-12-19 16:15:55 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

  • Laboratory Operation, Research Project Management, Advanced Mass Production, Retail all to 3 - more jobs/orders
  • some refining skills
  • Remote Sensing and Planetology 3



    • So for 1/3 the cost I can keep 80% of my production slots, and still do some PI on the side?

    No. No, I don't think so.

    "Help, I'm bored with missions!"

    http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
    Dior Ambraelle
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #13 - 2016-12-19 19:56:05 UTC
    In my opinion, the best beta clone concept I found so far was like this:
    - beta clones are downgraded from omega clones
    - they can't learn skills
    - they have access to all alpha clone skills
    - they can't use pirate faction ships

    The reason for this was that older players who stopped playing for some reason returned to see that all of their stuff is inaccessible due to their faction, which never had any effect on the game before. If you are Caldari, but preferred to use Gallente ships with drones for example.
    Restricting them from using the pirate ships is actually easy: if a ship requires more than one faction's ship skill than it's omega only. This can be literally one line of code (depending on your style) and all current and upcoming pirate faction ships are affected by it.

    If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

    But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
    blargderp
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #14 - 2016-12-19 20:45:14 UTC
    Dior Ambraelle wrote:
    In my opinion, the best beta clone concept I found so far was like this:
    - beta clones are downgraded from omega clones
    - they can't learn skills
    - they have access to all alpha clone skills
    - they can't use pirate faction ships

    The reason for this was that older players who stopped playing for some reason returned to see that all of their stuff is inaccessible due to their faction, which never had any effect on the game before. If you are Caldari, but preferred to use Gallente ships with drones for example.
    Restricting them from using the pirate ships is actually easy: if a ship requires more than one faction's ship skill than it's omega only. This can be literally one line of code (depending on your style) and all current and upcoming pirate faction ships are affected by it.


    I don't really see any reason for restricting pirate faction ships. If you're willing to run the risk of flying one with only alpha skills then why shouldn't you? I meant honestly, if you're dumb enough to undock in an astero that can't cloak you deserve everything that happens to you.
    SurrenderMonkey
    State Protectorate
    Caldari State
    #15 - 2016-12-19 20:51:53 UTC
    Dior Ambraelle wrote:
    In my opinion, the best beta clone concept I found so far was like this:
    - beta clones are downgraded from omega clones
    - they can't learn skills
    - they have access to all alpha clone skills
    - they can't use pirate faction ships

    The reason for this was that older players who stopped playing for some reason returned to see that all of their stuff is inaccessible due to their faction, which never had any effect on the game before. If you are Caldari, but preferred to use Gallente ships with drones for example.
    Restricting them from using the pirate ships is actually easy: if a ship requires more than one faction's ship skill than it's omega only. This can be literally one line of code (depending on your style) and all current and upcoming pirate faction ships are affected by it.



    The best beta clone concept I found so far was like this:

    -Don't have beta clones.

    "Help, I'm bored with missions!"

    http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
    Dior Ambraelle
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #16 - 2016-12-19 21:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Dior Ambraelle
    blargderp wrote:
    I meant honestly, if you're dumb enough to undock in an astero that can't cloak you deserve everything that happens to you.

    I just did the SOE epic arc with an Astero that had 2 railguns equipped Cool

    Also, the Astero is the worst example you could pick. What about the Gila? Even with alpha level skills, if you can afford a full faction-module fit (for the sake of this example, let's assume you can) then you have a probably better ship in every way than a t2 omega would have. And what about the Sansha ships? Or the angels?

    If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

    But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #17 - 2016-12-20 02:52:19 UTC
    blargderp wrote:
    PopeUrban wrote:
    I don't understand why.

    It's an attempt from the F2P "I want more" audience to compromise with the "just pay for the game, what are you poor eck dee" audience.

    The only issue I have with the alpha restrictions is the fact that alphas are restricted to a singular race. In my opinion if you have the skills already trained for cross-race (within alpha clone restrictions) then you should be able to use those skills, but you can't train for them when in an alpha state. None of this middle-ground subscription nonsense.


    alphas are free just make one for each race

    BLOPS Hauler
    The 16.8km Bubble
    Reaver Glitterstim
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #18 - 2016-12-20 07:13:37 UTC
    SurrenderMonkey wrote:
    So for 1/3 the cost I can keep 80% of my production slots, and still do some PI on the side?

    No. No, I don't think so.

    I made quick estimates on the skills, so they could use an adjustment. But don't forget that Alpha can use 4 production slots, and that's completely free. Since Omega can go to 11 max slots, maybe Beta should max at 6. Also don't forget that I didn't include anything to increase material efficiency, decrease setup costs and taxes, or anything else to improve efficiency. Alpha clones suffer a smaller profit margin and so will Beta clones.

    The PI I purposely set under 1/3rd yield, that way there is no arguing about it: Omega is the best for PI profit, hands down.

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
    Kenrailae
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #19 - 2016-12-20 08:53:55 UTC
    No Reaver. We don't need a silver membership. The ONLY alteration to the alpha/beta balance that could be entertained in any fashion would be consideration for battlecruisers, but even that one is a very hard sell. Faction fit cruisers are already not to be sneezed at in the right circumstance.

    The Law is a point of View

    The NPE IS a big deal
    blargderp
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #20 - 2016-12-20 11:54:31 UTC
    Dior Ambraelle wrote:
    blargderp wrote:
    I meant honestly, if you're dumb enough to undock in an astero that can't cloak you deserve everything that happens to you.

    I just did the SOE epic arc with an Astero that had 2 railguns equipped Cool

    Also, the Astero is the worst example you could pick. What about the Gila? Even with alpha level skills, if you can afford a full faction-module fit (for the sake of this example, let's assume you can) then you have a probably better ship in every way than a t2 omega would have. And what about the Sansha ships? Or the angels?


    I used the astero as an example because it's a classic case of a noob trap. Just look at all those shiny bonuses!

    in the case of the gila (or other pirate ships) an omega could fit the same build or better and have significantly better skills. Besides, if you have that kind of cash lying around then you likely have the means to buy a plex and be in an omega state anyway.
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