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[December] Excavator Mining Drone yield rebalance

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Jean-Luc II
Doomheim
#141 - 2016-12-07 18:56:56 UTC
Callaghan wrote:
Are you serious? This has literally been live for like 5 mins and you're already taking it away. Do you even want people to keep playing your game? Do you even care about all the people who spent time, money and effort. Injecting, building and farming there way into a ship that 1 month later they don't even want.

Is this CCPs new business model to get people to keep extracting and re injecting? 32% is such a huge Nerf to an already limited ship, I have a question for you. After running and developing Eve Online for 10+ Years how is it you can't balance this before you release it so you don't have to "fix" it one month after launch.

If the rorqual had released with 32% less yield at least we would have known it was a bad investment. Now we're all stuck with 10b plus investments, it's an absolute joke.


Well said!!!
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#142 - 2016-12-07 18:57:16 UTC
Rexxen Darkbrew wrote:

Screw a 1/3 cut in possible income with a 10-15b ship that is stuck for 5 minutes in siege...



The thing making it a "10-15b ship" right now is the cost of the excavators, which is also being adjusted, so that's sort of a hollow argument.

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Casandra Elise McIntire
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#143 - 2016-12-07 19:00:01 UTC
Callaghan wrote:
Are you serious? This has literally been live for like 5 mins and you're already taking it away. Do you even want people to keep playing your game? Do you even care about all the people who spent time, money and effort. Injecting, building and farming there way into a ship that 1 month later they don't even want.

Is this CCPs new business model to get people to keep extracting and re injecting? 32% is such a huge Nerf to an already limited ship, I have a question for you. After running and developing Eve Online for 10+ Years how is it you can't balance this before you release it so you don't have to "fix" it one month after launch.

If the rorqual had released with 32% less yield at least we would have known it was a bad investment. Now we're all stuck with 10b plus investments, it's an absolute joke.



Yes this is the new business model. CCP will start putting out revamps on unused, mostly untrained ships, buff them to high heavens and then once the skill injector markets calms back down, they will nerf them back to reasonably broken levels.

Next I see Blops being given a ton of love. You know, cause small groups need better ability to fight the evil hordes. (Not cause Blops take a crap ton of training and the injector market will thrive even more.)
Ni Neith
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2016-12-07 19:04:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. We've been keeping a close eye on how people are using the newly rebalanced Rorquals...


Can you throw one of your eyes on the ESS situation please. Why are they sill alowed on a citadel?
nm Kain
State War Academy
Caldari State
#145 - 2016-12-07 19:05:41 UTC
Jean-Luc II wrote:
Callaghan wrote:
Are you serious? This has literally been live for like 5 mins and you're already taking it away. Do you even want people to keep playing your game? Do you even care about all the people who spent time, money and effort. Injecting, building and farming there way into a ship that 1 month later they don't even want.

Is this CCPs new business model to get people to keep extracting and re injecting? 32% is such a huge Nerf to an already limited ship, I have a question for you. After running and developing Eve Online for 10+ Years how is it you can't balance this before you release it so you don't have to "fix" it one month after launch.

If the rorqual had released with 32% less yield at least we would have known it was a bad investment. Now we're all stuck with 10b plus investments, it's an absolute joke.


Well said!!!


Yup. Well Said +2
Xennos Octavian
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2016-12-07 19:06:46 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
I can't really debate if 32% nerf is or isn't appropriate, but I do question why "0.0 mining paying too much" is the sort of game-breaking thing that requires immediate patching while "invulnerable combat ships" is not.


It is not changing my plans for a Rorqual, but I will find it annoying, nonetheless.

I am not that familiar with Fozzie's apparent fixation on "balance" between High-Sec and Null-Sec, which some people here have been complaining about, but I will put forward my own perception on the matter.

For starters, I do not see why such a drastic nerf (reducing Excavators to 2/3 their original mining capabilities) is being implemented. The Rorqual is a Capital Ship, so should it not perform at the same level as its PvE/PvP counterparts? Before, the Industrial Core just made it a booster ship that was a floating piñata if one was careless enough to have one on-grid for PvP gangs to destroy.

The recent update not only gave it PANIC to protect its mining fleet on-grid (and the bonuses to shield boosters and remote shield boosters, IIRC), but also turned it into a proper mining vessel. Now the guy in the Rorq doesn't just sit there with the Fleet Boost, and can actually contribute directly to the mining operation through their Drones.

They can even do it on their own (pre-Nerf could mine as much as five Exhumers combined), but now you've knocked down the mining yields for Ore mining (I believe they left the Ice ones untouched) by 32%. That kind of number adds up quickly: now people have to make four cycles to get the same amount of Ore which, pre-nerf, they only needed three cycles to get.

For the high-risk nature of Low and Null-Sec, is such a reduction in mining yields really necessary?
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#147 - 2016-12-07 19:08:05 UTC
So after this change 2 of the 5 drones will effectively be made useless. However each drone mines about as much as one Exhumer, so that still leaves 3 Exhumers worth of yield. Why are people bitching?

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Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
Central Omni Galactic Group
#148 - 2016-12-07 19:09:19 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Rexxen Darkbrew wrote:

Screw a 1/3 cut in possible income with a 10-15b ship that is stuck for 5 minutes in siege...



The thing making it a "10-15b ship" right now is the cost of the excavators, which is also being adjusted, so that's sort of a hollow argument.


That's true, the excavators should drop in price rightly so. The amount of ore a Rorq mines is also rather high.

However, given that the risk vs reward of putting a Rorq on field is vastly unbalanced against every other nullsec form of personal ISK generation I feel it's still way out of whack.

I can deploy a carrier to a Sanctum, align to station and as long as I pay attention to local and intel I can get out usually in time. 30M a tic if I get lucky, but risk isn't too high so it's fine.

I can run in a VNI or Ishtar in a Haven, always running at speed, again if I am paying attention, I can get out fine, 15-20M a tic.

I can mine in a Skiff, or Hulk, as long as I pay attention, I can warp out a fair amount of the time.

I run a Rorq, to make it mine better than a barge I have to siege it, 5 minutes locked in place, unlike the other activities, which are solo endeavors, even if I have good intel, even if I am paying attention, I'm locked in that spot for 5 minutes. The payout is rather high, sure, it could do with a nerf, it's also playing havoc with the mineral markets. BUT, the extend feels like a knee-jerk reaction, the reward vs risk here feels really off kilter compared to other ways to make ISK.

/salt
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#149 - 2016-12-07 19:10:05 UTC
eiedu wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

...
  • Reducing the mining yield of 'Excavator' Mining Drones by 32%

...


Would you share with us why a 32% reduction was chosen as opposed to something like 20%? Is there any math behind it?

Yes, there is math behind that!

145% * 68% = 99%

The Rorqual was initially announced to have a yield of ~18400 m3 per minute.
Someone forgot to put mining augmentor rigs on it, which boosted the yield by 45.475% to 29,226m3 per minute.
Reducing it by 32% "cancels out" the rigs and brings it down to 19,873 m3 per minute (~10% discrepancy, probably mining drone spec?)

Things tend to need a "nerf" when you tell your economy guys to run a number, then overshoot it by 50%.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#150 - 2016-12-07 19:10:29 UTC
Xennos Octavian wrote:


For the high-risk nature of Low and Null-Sec, is such a reduction in mining yields really necessary?


Forget all of this Battle-Of-the-Secses business for a minute.

Do you honestly think the current rate of Rorqual mining, and the resulting increase in the mineral supply, would be a good thing for the game, long term?

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Aasir
Doomheim
#151 - 2016-12-07 19:10:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aasir
Please stop building in null sec, we only wanted you to think you could be self sufficient.

But seriously Nerf the combat capability of the Rorqual fgs are you actually stupid? Leave the yield alone

Vald Tegor wrote:


Things tend to need a "nerf" when you tell your economy guys to run a number, then overshoot it by 50%.


Your telling me that in all the time they were re balancing the rorqual no one at ccp remembered their were mining drone rigs? Don't even talk to me
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#152 - 2016-12-07 19:11:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobb Bobbington
For all the people complaining, let me argue CCP's perspective

It's not necessarily about nullsec miners earning too much. There are numerous other long term effects that come with these rorquals. Rorquals can mine way too much ore. This can lead to...

1. Decreased mineral prices. We already see this happening across the board. Eventually rorqual isk/hr may be much closer to normal, but this is a form of powercreep- barges and other mining barges will be greatly nerfed.
2. Easier to get large ships. With lower mineral prices, it would be much easier obtaining battleships and capitals. From a player perspective this may sound awesome, but from a game design perspective it may be unwanted- part of the game is struggling to get forward.
3. Nullsec supercap fleets. Lets say a rorqual can make 300m/hr. I don't know the exact number. It would take 10 rorquals only 6-7 hours to mine 20b- enough for a supercarrier. Since only large alliances can safely field large rorqual fleets, they will become only further entrenched against the "little guy".


Edit: I do want to add though- CCP could have pulled this off much better. Besides the fact that it should never have been this high, they should have predicted elite AIs would have skyrocketed in price. Manipulating the droprates, and consequently the market, only sets a bad precedent that CCP will jump in if prices get out of hand, degrading the sandbox.

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#153 - 2016-12-07 19:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Vald Tegor wrote:
eiedu wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

...
  • Reducing the mining yield of 'Excavator' Mining Drones by 32%

...


Would you share with us why a 32% reduction was chosen as opposed to something like 20%? Is there any math behind it?

Yes, there is math behind that!

145% * 68% = 99%

The Rorqual was initially announced to have a yield of ~18400 m3 per minute.
Someone forgot to put mining augmentor rigs on it, which boosted the yield by 45.475% to 29,226m3 per minute.
Reducing it by 32% "cancels out" the rigs and brings it down to 19,873 m3 per minute (~10% discrepancy, probably mining drone spec?)

Things tend to need a "nerf" when you tell your economy guys to run a number, then overshoot it by 50%.


This is either an amazing coincidence, or the actual reason. Well spotted!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Kimsemus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#154 - 2016-12-07 19:16:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimsemus
TigerXtrm wrote:
So after this change 2 of the 5 drones will effectively be made useless. However each drone mines about as much as one Exhumer, so that still leaves 3 Exhumers worth of yield. Why are people bitching?


Because 3 exhumers don't cost 10b (conservatively) a year's worth of more training, and being completely exposed while in indie siege mode? Oh and an exhumer doesn't fly, warp, and move like a brick with another brick tied to it?

//edit

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6745620#post6745620

If this guy's math is right then nbd, they should have caught that before release though.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2016-12-07 19:21:49 UTC
endless lolling that "our careful analysis and weighing of the factors has determined this is the appropriate nerf to bring this in line to our master plan" is actually "oh right, carry the one...oops"
Lord Molly
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#156 - 2016-12-07 19:35:00 UTC
Gutting for everybody who just spent loads on the drones. They will now do less and become cheep. Ouch

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#157 - 2016-12-07 19:42:18 UTC
Lord Molly wrote:
Gutting for everybody who just spent loads on the drones. They will now do less and become cheep. Ouch


honestly this is why my buddies who mine said "I'll wait till after December to try that" lol.

People who have been dealing with CCP for years know to do it that way...
prayed chiwanba
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#158 - 2016-12-07 19:44:10 UTC
If you gona reduce the mining drone by so much you should call them heavy mining drones and seed the bpo on normal mkt,

ccp really we can dock oh no you cant
ccp here you go mine away hahaha suckers.....
Sisi Collins
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#159 - 2016-12-07 19:44:49 UTC
Making simple math between

Rorq mining fit:
5x excavator drones,
2x t2 capital mining drone augm,
1x t1 capital mining drone augm,
mining drone spec 4lvl,
capital indi ship 4lvl,
NO PANIC button

We will get 40k m3 per 90sec / 444,44 m3 per 1sec
Hull+fit cost approximate - 2.6bil (hull)+6.15bil (drones)+0.945bil (rigs)+1.2bil(some random fit)
TOTAL - 10.895bil

Hulk fit+BONUS rorq:
perfect skills,
perfect rorq bonuses with t2 indi core activated
implant +3%
3x t2 mining laser upgrades in low slots
t2 crystalls

We will get 3282 m3 per 44.3sec / 74.085 m3 per 1sec
Hulk Hull+fit cost approximate - 0.328bil
Rorq Hull+fit cost approximate - 2.6bil (hull)+0.3bil (rigs) + 0.8bil (fit)
TOTAL - 4.028bil

Taking into account math above:
BEFORE NERF
1 MINING RORQ = 6x PERFECT HULK (best bonuses) this will be less due to drone movement.

AFTER NERF (-32%)
1 MINING RORQ = 4x PERFECT HULKS (best bonuses) this will be less due drones movement.


I'll take maximum mining from rorq fit. Rigs for mining are most bad idea, but i've took to show math.

So right now mining rorq from point of view of mining - looks like CAPITAL INDUSTRIAL SHIP, mines like hell.

But with nerf (-32%), 5min being flying frag-brick, prices on drones and hull, and without mining rigs (to add more survivability) - rorqual will not be in my eyes - CAPITAL INDUSTRIAL SHIP. RORQUAL will be just 3 hulks and absolutely not worth investment of 11bil into it.

Investment is so ******* risky....

Increasing drop rate of drones components will lower prices on excavator drones in some time, if there is no nerf implemented.
With implementation of nerf, prices on excavator drones will drop, because no one will buy them.

I feel sorry for those who invest a lot into rorquals.

If looking into changes from mining perspective:

-20-25% nerf to excavator drones
2-2.5min duration for industrial core
+15-20% increase of speed to excavator drones.
Ezekiel Amann
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2016-12-07 19:50:31 UTC
I'm not a miner, but I don't think you should do this. The current system is great for PvP content, and that is all too rare in wormholes as is under the current system. With as slow as the drones fly and then a 32% smack to yield most miners will just say screw it and go do something else. Seriously, I like ganking miners it fun, there will be significantly less of them chewing on rocks if you do this.