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Balance, meta, yadda yadda

Author
Beyonder I
Multiverse Trading
#1 - 2016-11-28 12:29:19 UTC
I'm no expert, so correct me if I am wrong. It seems to me (from my observations at least, which should be taken with a grain of salt, if not a truckload) that drone play, and subsequently, Gallente, are "in." If true (correct me if I am wrong), my question is simply, does CCP believe that this is "working as intended?" If not, is there some kind of balance tweak to be expected at some point?
Yarosara Ruil
#2 - 2016-11-28 12:43:23 UTC
Your observations are rubbish. Things are working as intended until CCP decides they don't intend for things to work the way they do.

And there's no such thing as faction balance, never was. Each faction does things diferent and some do them better than others, but there's no algorithm or higher reason for the way things are. The FotM used to favor Svipuls and Ishtars before that, and soon the meta will crystallize over some other ship. And so the title of "cancer" will pass on to the next generation.
Venkhar Krard
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2016-11-28 12:55:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Venkhar Krard
Meta is changing the whole time (like in most online games). There were always races/factions that (for a time) had a bigger selection of very good ships than the others. Up until now it wasn't much of a problem cause you could easily cross-train (which most did sooner or later to get the pirate duo-faction ships).

Now we have alphas that are limited to only one race and only some classes, and its pretty clear that Gallente and Caldari give alphas access to a bigger selection of good ships than Minmatar and Amarr. And it's not only about drones, even the ships that dont use drones are really strong. Now that the race balance actually matters I could see CCP doing a small rebalance of ships alphas have access to.

To be clear - all races have good ships, and some of them are better for specific tasks than the gallente/drone counterpart. Many of them might also better suit you playstyle once you figure out what you need.
Beyonder I
Multiverse Trading
#4 - 2016-11-28 13:38:48 UTC
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
Your observations are rubbish. Things are working as intended until CCP decides they don't intend for things to work the way they do.

And there's no such thing as faction balance, never was.


Useless, pointless post. Will wait for someone with something more intelligent to say.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5 - 2016-11-28 13:42:51 UTC
Beyonder I wrote:
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
Your observations are rubbish. Things are working as intended until CCP decides they don't intend for things to work the way they do.

And there's no such thing as faction balance, never was.


Useless, pointless post. Will wait for someone with something more intelligent to say.

You asked to be corrected if wrong, get corrected because are wrong, and then whinge about it.

Don't ask for what you're not prepared for.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#6 - 2016-11-28 13:43:38 UTC
Gallente are 'winning'.

I can fit an Alpha clone Moa and in a punch for punch, go toe to toe with an Alpha clone Thorax with empty drone bays. They both have 5% damage per ship level, they both have 5 slots for guns. Introduce the Moa 15 M3 bay (3xlight) and the Thorax 50 M3 bay (5xmedium) to the equation and things go south for the Moa.

Caldari Missile boats with no target painters was a walk away deal for me. If you prefer missile as an Alpha clone, Bellicose is the premier ship.

Amarr as Alpha clone is a strong second. Lazors to eat a shield, drones to tear through armor. They suffer the same problem they always have. You fight to survive not to 'win' because their slow nature means other ships can leave the engagement with greater ease. In a fleet, Amarr have always been the immovable force but they require large scale discipline to master.

Omega, that's another matter. More doctrines are available and resource access is the force in play when deciding the fleets you bring to bear.
mkint
#7 - 2016-11-28 13:50:06 UTC
I'd have to see hard numbers before drawing any conclusions. As said previously, there is always a FOTM. The way a FOTM emerges is pretty fascinating in itself. After a balance pass, as far as anybody knows everything is perfectly balanced. Before a real FOTM is settled on, a smaller trend will show up first, everyone copying everyone else based on social factors rather than numbers. Eventually someone stumbles on a ship + fitting + tactics that together is extremely effective. It's resisted at first because people are more loyal to their social FOTM than what actually works. Then the real FOTM builds momentum as its effectiveness is proved undeniably and it's adopted into more social circles and dominates the game. The point is, even if everything really was perfectly balanced, everyone would still all fly the same stuff because "I dunno, I heard it from some other guys."

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2016-11-28 14:04:55 UTC
Beyonder I wrote:


Useless, pointless post. Will wait for someone with something more intelligent to say.



Beyonder I wrote:
I'm no expert, so correct me if I am wrong. It seems to me (from my observations at least, which should be taken with a grain of salt, if not a truckload)...


Look at the new guy making 'observations' and asking people to 'correct me if I am wrong' while calling people useless and imply a lack of intelligence when they do just that.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#9 - 2016-11-28 14:18:04 UTC
Beyonder I wrote:
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
Your observations are rubbish. Things are working as intended until CCP decides they don't intend for things to work the way they do.

And there's no such thing as faction balance, never was.


Useless, pointless post. Will wait for someone with something more intelligent to say.

How to get yourself trolled 101 right here.
Yarosara Ruil
#10 - 2016-11-28 14:23:12 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Look at the new guy making 'observations' and asking people to 'correct me if I am wrong' while calling people useless and imply a lack of intelligence when they do just that.


In my defense, I might have been a bit too snarky towards the OP and I really didn't mean it. But that's nothing that a nice spoonful of HTFU won't solve!

I mean really, when people ask which race is better, the answer is never "the Gallente", but rather a flexible "it depends".
Josef Djugashvilis
#11 - 2016-11-28 14:25:55 UTC
Beyonder I wrote:
I'm no expert, so correct me if I am wrong. It seems to me (from my observations at least, which should be taken with a grain of salt, if not a truckload) that drone play, and subsequently, Gallente, are "in." If true (correct me if I am wrong), my question is simply, does CCP believe that this is "working as intended?" If not, is there some kind of balance tweak to be expected at some point?


Jeez, Eve 101, never ever mention anything drone or drone related where CCP might see it.

They spent the best part of two years, balancing Gallente drone ships, the Ishtar and Dominix for examples, balancing, tweaking, adjusting, altering, changing, fiddling with and generally messing around with all things drones and drone related.

For the love of all thing holy etc, do not get CCP started again.

Thank you.

This is not a signature.

Skyweir Kinnison
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2016-11-28 14:34:44 UTC
The question is almost meaningless, because your choice will be situational. For example, as an alpha that wanted to join one of the large null-sec newbie alliances, Minmatar would probably be a sound choice because there seems to be a lot of doctrines relying on rust. Next up would be Caldari, because ECM and missiles, particularly the Caracal cruiser, seem to be very popular for fleets and also kitey seems to be very popular from what I see, so Kestrels, Griffins for EWAR, Cormorants for small fleets, Caracals for bigger fleets and the Osprey for learning logistics makes Caldari an interesting choice.

Drones seem to be a good choice if you want to rat rather than PvP, but Gallente have some sound choices for faction warfare where I understand brawling fits have better options. Gallente also have a great choice of industrial ships for PI etc.

Like pretty much everything in EvE, it depends.

Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.

Taurean Eltanin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2016-11-28 15:48:39 UTC
I agree that alpha clones will change the way CCP handles ship balancing, because for many players crosstraining is not possible (without a subscription).

I believe that they have said alpha clone ships will be receiving a balance pass in the near future.

If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.

mkint
#14 - 2016-11-28 15:53:57 UTC
Taurean Eltanin wrote:
I agree that alpha clones will change the way CCP handles ship balancing, because for many players crosstraining is not possible (without a subscription).

I believe that they have said alpha clone ships will be receiving a balance pass in the near future.

it would be fascinating to see the stats on alphas after a few months. Which factions end up quitting. Which ones end up in which activities.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Beyonder I
Multiverse Trading
#15 - 2016-11-28 16:07:41 UTC
A few polite, intelligent responses, and I thank you for that. But I also see the trolls are out in full force. Whether that's a chronic condition on these forums or not, I don't know, but if so, it's something I won't waste my time with. I'd recommend someone 'in charge' simply banning posting privileges from obvious trolls, but then again, if that was something they were inclined to do, they would have done it already.

By the way, some kind of miscommunication apparently. I was not asking anything about alpha clones. For the purposes of my question, forget they exist.
mkint
#16 - 2016-11-28 16:20:44 UTC
Beyonder I wrote:
A few polite, intelligent responses, and I thank you for that. But I also see the trolls are out in full force. Whether that's a chronic condition on these forums or not, I don't know, but if so, it's something I won't waste my time with. I'd recommend someone 'in charge' simply banning posting privileges from obvious trolls, but then again, if that was something they were inclined to do, they would have done it already.

By the way, some kind of miscommunication apparently. I was not asking anything about alpha clones. For the purposes of my question, forget they exist.

alphas are the only place it really matters. The "train wide or train deep" dilemma is a good mechanic. Where it sucks is if you started as a "bad" faction especially without realizing it until 3 months down the road. Or your "good faction" that you were forced into sticking with for months (or years?) ends up getting nerfed and you're now in the new "bad" faction. If I was an alpha in either of those scenarios, I'd just quit, certainly not subscribe.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#17 - 2016-11-28 16:36:41 UTC
Skydell wrote:
Gallente are 'winning'.

I can fit an Alpha clone Moa and in a punch for punch, go toe to toe with an Alpha clone Thorax with empty drone bays. They both have 5% damage per ship level, they both have 5 slots for guns. Introduce the Moa 15 M3 bay (3xlight) and the Thorax 50 M3 bay (5xmedium) to the equation and things go south for the Moa.


TIL that hardpoints and drone bay are literally the only stats that matter. Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Venkhar Krard
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2016-11-28 16:39:18 UTC
Beyonder I wrote:

By the way, some kind of miscommunication apparently. I was not asking anything about alpha clones. For the purposes of my question, forget they exist.


If we are not talking about alpha clones (and the basic t1 ship classes), than the difference isn't so obvious. There are a lot more advanced ship classes where the other factions are as strong or stronger.

The only Gallente ships that are (maybe) a little bit too strong (if you look at what the other factions offer you in the same class), are:

- Tristan, Vexor, Vexor Navy

And pirate (Gallente skill + drones):

- Astero, Stratios, Worm, Gila, Rattlesnake
Beyonder I
Multiverse Trading
#19 - 2016-11-28 17:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Beyonder I
Venkhar Krard wrote:

If we are not talking about alpha clones (and the basic t1 ship classes), than the difference isn't so obvious. There are a lot more advanced ship classes where the other factions are as strong or stronger.


Perhaps I'm still not communicating. Sure, you can always point to some ship here or there that's better than another one. I'm talking purely 'in general' and 'meta,' nothing else.

Perhaps some background is in order. All I hear from the more veteran pilots I meet and talk to is "Gallente this, drone that, Ishtar this, Vexor that, Megathron whatever." All they ever say is "train your drone skills to max," and "train Gallente NOW." People have told me stories of null-sec fleets composed of nothing but Gallente drone boats, etc. Whenever I ask for advice on how to defeat this particular enemy, or beat such-and-such combat anomaly, I get "just drop heavy drones from Gallente drone boat. If he does this, retract and drop heavy ewar drones. If he does that, retract and drop sentries." Blah blah blah blah blah blah.

It's all I ever hear, and all I have heard, since starting this game. No exceptions really, except here, so I'm somewhat surprised to be hearing "well it depends" or "all races have good stuff" or "it doesn't matter except for clones" etc.

Don't get me wrong. If I have had the wrong picture painted for me, I want that picture corrected, and I thank you. Perhaps I keep meeting tons of people who know absolutely nothing. What I expected to hear when posting this was "yeah CCP is aware of the issue - how could they not be as everyone and their mother is" and "yes, they announced rebalancing to commence starting in X" or "no official word yet on when this issue might be tackled."

Will see what other knowledgeable posters have to say, if any chime in, and thank you for the opposing view.
mkint
#20 - 2016-11-28 17:10:33 UTC
Beyonder I wrote:
Venkhar Krard wrote:

If we are not talking about alpha clones (and the basic t1 ship classes), than the difference isn't so obvious. There are a lot more advanced ship classes where the other factions are as strong or stronger.


Perhaps I'm still not communicating. Sure, you can always point to some ship here or there that's better than another one. I'm talking purely 'in general' and 'meta,' nothing else.

Perhaps some background is in order. All I hear from the more veteran pilots I meet and talk to is "Gallente this, drone that, Ishtar this, Vexor that, Megathron whatever." All they ever say is "train your drone skills to max," and "train Gallente NOW." People have told me stories of null-sec fleets composed of nothing but Gallente drone boats, etc. Whenever I ask for advice on how to defeat this particular enemy, or beat such-and-such combat anomaly, I get "just drop heavy drones from Gallente drone boat. If he does this, retract and drop heavy ewar drones. If he does that, retract and drop sentries." Blah blah blah blah blah blah.

It's all I ever hear, and all I have heard, since starting this game. No exceptions really, except here, so I'm somewhat surprised to be hearing "well it depends" or "all races have good stuff" or "it doesn't matter except for clones" etc.

Don't get me wrong. If I have had the wrong picture painted for me, I want that picture corrected, and I thank you. Perhaps I keep meeting tons of people who know absolutely nothing. What I expected to hear when posting this was "yeah CCP is aware of the issue - how could they not be as everyone and their mother is" and "yes, they announced rebalancing to commence starting in X" or "no official word yet on when this issue might be tackled."

Will see what other knowledgeable posters have to say, if any chime in, and thank you for the opposing view.

copy pasta from zkill. Granted this covers PVP kills, but for the theoretically highest DPS faction they barely even show up.
Top Ships
Sabre 12,672
Proteus 5,716
Svipul 9,446
Stiletto 8,658
Malediction 6,674
Tengu 3,939
Orthrus 4,990
Cynabal 5,766
Loki 4,879
Caracal 6,074
Machariel 4,102

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

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