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Balance, meta, yadda yadda
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Yarosara Ruil
#21 - 2016-11-28 17:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Yarosara Ruil
Beyonder I wrote:
But I also see the trolls are out in full force. Whether that's a chronic condition on these forums or not, I don't know, but if so, it's something I won't waste my time with. I'd recommend someone 'in charge' simply banning posting privileges from obvious trolls, but then again, if that was something they were inclined to do, they would have done it already.


I'll leave you this friendly advice then. Grow some thick skin, because in EVE, your feelings are literally at the bottom of the totem pole. If yours bruise as easily as a ripe tomato, you're going to have an hard time.

It's not about trolling. It's about feedback and attitude. This community reacts heavily towards its members attitude. If you are humble, receptive and willing to accept the way of things, people will treat you respectfully. Get snotty, pushy and act like a know-it-all and people will lash out at you. This is how things are.

And your attitude presently is as rotten as it gets. I suggest you correct this ASAP.

Anyways, I'll expand on my answer in a more intelectual way...

Drone boats are indeed kings in PvE and the Vexor Navy Issue is the go to ship for people willing to rat in Nullsec. When people suggest you to train Gallente skills, is mostly due to this fact. The people giving you advice to train those skills want you to be able to amass capital and ISK as quickly as possible, and that can be done easily with Gallente ships, as they are very accessible and easy to train, and the drone AI allows you to make more mistakes and ease in to it slowly. A Gila for example is a massively powerful ship and can be extraordinary easy to climb into and pull a stable 600 DPS and a great tank.

But in PvP, drones have this crippling drawback that people can shoot them. You can't disable the other weapon types the same way you can disable drones and that is a crippling weakness. Tristans in PvP can be deadly and so can the Navy Comet, but they are far from being the major players in Faction War. A long time ago, Ishtars were the Meta, but CCP pulled that weed out from the roots and things have calmed down ever since.

Guristas ships, my one true love in this game, embrace the strengths of both the Caldari and the Gallente, but are decisively more attuned towards the Caldari than the Gallente. ORE ships use drones as well, and lore wise are considered Gallente ships in origin, but the fact they use drones is due to how they have their fits designed for mineral extraction and drones can bypass that since they aren't fit like the other weapon systems and modules. SOE ships also use drones on top of their Cov Ops Cloak and they are the staple exploration ship and perfect for wormhole activities.

Gallente, and their drone skills by proxy, got their fingers in a lot of pies in the Ship Tree, but don't assume that as an absolute "dominance" of gameplay.
Beyonder I
Multiverse Trading
#22 - 2016-11-28 17:30:28 UTC
mkint wrote:

copy pasta from zkill. Granted this covers PVP kills, but for the theoretically highest DPS faction they barely even show up.
Top Ships
Sabre 12,672
Proteus 5,716
Svipul 9,446
Stiletto 8,658
Malediction 6,674
Tengu 3,939
Orthrus 4,990
Cynabal 5,766
Loki 4,879
Caracal 6,074
Machariel 4,102


Well, a good start perhaps, but we'd need to filter out T3 cruisers from any list like this.

Questions.

1) Do you believe the above list accurately captures the 'meta'?

2) Are you saying you don't hear all the hoopla and hype I forever hear regarding Gallente? If not, perhaps I'm in some sort of bubble or echo chamber, probably due to my newer player status?
Orravan
Anomalie
#23 - 2016-11-28 19:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Orravan
Beyonder I wrote:
But I also see the trolls are out in full force.

I haven't seen any trolling. All I've seen is you asking a question and people giving you answers.
Take the advice of Yarosara Ruil and grow a thick skin (without turning into an ***hole), because you'll need it.

Now about your inquiry, there is "flavour of the month" trends, but they don't last, and they are by no mean tied to a race or a weapon type.
Eve is a "rock-paper-scissor" type of game, by design. No race or weapon type has the extra edge over the rest, it's all about how you use it, and as someone already explained, it's heavily situational.

The people you fly with might have preferences, or even whole doctrines tailored around specific races, shiptypes and tactics, and it will necessarily influence their choices and opinions.

Finicky diplomat. Suicidal explorer. Faithful ally.
Tristan Valentina
Moira.
#24 - 2016-11-28 19:47:31 UTC
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
Beyonder I wrote:
But I also see the trolls are out in full force. Whether that's a chronic condition on these forums or not, I don't know, but if so, it's something I won't waste my time with. I'd recommend someone 'in charge' simply banning posting privileges from obvious trolls, but then again, if that was something they were inclined to do, they would have done it already.


I'll leave you this friendly advice then. Grow some thick skin, because in EVE, your feelings are literally at the bottom of the totem pole. If yours bruise as easily as a ripe tomato, you're going to have an hard time.

It's not about trolling. It's about feedback and attitude. This community reacts heavily towards its members attitude. If you are humble, receptive and willing to accept the way of things, people will treat you respectfully. Get snotty, pushy and act like a know-it-all and people will lash out at you. This is how things are.

And your attitude presently is as rotten as it gets. I suggest you correct this ASAP.

Anyways, I'll expand on my answer in a more intelectual way...

Drone boats are indeed kings in PvE and the Vexor Navy Issue is the go to ship for people willing to rat in Nullsec. When people suggest you to train Gallente skills, is mostly due to this fact. The people giving you advice to train those skills want you to be able to amass capital and ISK as quickly as possible, and that can be done easily with Gallente ships, as they are very accessible and easy to train, and the drone AI allows you to make more mistakes and ease in to it slowly. A Gila for example is a massively powerful ship and can be extraordinary easy to climb into and pull a stable 600 DPS and a great tank.

But in PvP, drones have this crippling drawback that people can shoot them. You can't disable the other weapon types the same way you can disable drones and that is a crippling weakness. Tristans in PvP can be deadly and so can the Navy Comet, but they are far from being the major players in Faction War. A long time ago, Ishtars were the Meta, but CCP pulled that weed out from the roots and things have calmed down ever since.

Guristas ships, my one true love in this game, embrace the strengths of both the Caldari and the Gallente, but are decisively more attuned towards the Caldari than the Gallente. ORE ships use drones as well, and lore wise are considered Gallente ships in origin, but the fact they use drones is due to how they have their fits designed for mineral extraction and drones can bypass that since they aren't fit like the other weapon systems and modules. SOE ships also use drones on top of their Cov Ops Cloak and they are the staple exploration ship and perfect for wormhole activities.

Gallente, and their drone skills by proxy, got their fingers in a lot of pies in the Ship Tree, but don't assume that as an absolute "dominance" of gameplay.


Comets dont need drones, They vomit hot antimatter striking for FREEDOM!!

All other points here are spot on.

Where does OP get this feeling that Gallente is the in ship?
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#25 - 2016-11-28 20:44:19 UTC
Tristan Valentina wrote:

Where does OP get this feeling that Gallente is the in ship?



Probably the same place that he gets his attitude from.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
mkint
#26 - 2016-11-28 21:14:09 UTC
Beyonder I wrote:
mkint wrote:

copy pasta from zkill. Granted this covers PVP kills, but for the theoretically highest DPS faction they barely even show up.
Top Ships
Sabre 12,672
Proteus 5,716
Svipul 9,446
Stiletto 8,658
Malediction 6,674
Tengu 3,939
Orthrus 4,990
Cynabal 5,766
Loki 4,879
Caracal 6,074
Machariel 4,102


Well, a good start perhaps, but we'd need to filter out T3 cruisers from any list like this.

Questions.

1) Do you believe the above list accurately captures the 'meta'?

2) Are you saying you don't hear all the hoopla and hype I forever hear regarding Gallente? If not, perhaps I'm in some sort of bubble or echo chamber, probably due to my newer player status?

Could be the echo chamber. Could be you want to do stuff that gallente boats happen to be good at. There aren't a lot of good ways to measure the meta. That's kinda the definition of meta. Best way is to see what's doing all the killing and what's doing all the dying. There's more data the devs have that I don't know how to find, but usually outside 1 or 2 FOTM ships, and 1 or 2 pariah ships, overall usage tends to be pretty balanced in the game.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Valkin Mordirc
#27 - 2016-11-28 21:36:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
Skydell wrote:
Gallente are 'winning'.

I can fit an Alpha clone Moa and in a punch for punch, go toe to toe with an Alpha clone Thorax with empty drone bays. They both have 5% damage per ship level, they both have 5 slots for guns. Introduce the Moa 15 M3 bay (3xlight) and the Thorax 50 M3 bay (5xmedium) to the equation and things go south for the Moa.

Caldari Missile boats with no target painters was a walk away deal for me. If you prefer missile as an Alpha clone, Bellicose is the premier ship.

Amarr as Alpha clone is a strong second. Lazors to eat a shield, drones to tear through armor. They suffer the same problem they always have. You fight to survive not to 'win' because their slow nature means other ships can leave the engagement with greater ease. In a fleet, Amarr have always been the immovable force but they require large scale discipline to master.

Omega, that's another matter. More doctrines are available and resource access is the force in play when deciding the fleets you bring to bear.


Eh. Buffer Moa's will out DPS Buffer Thorax's. The thorax will normally only be able to fit one Magstab, whereas a moa can fit three. Moa's can also fit Ion's whereas a Thorax will need to fit Electrons.

They both share a similar tank. The difference only being about 500 ehp. Moa is more Cap depend on its tank though. However Moa's can use an XL-ASB making it really out tank any active tanked thorax.

Thorax's are faster, and have more utilities, Dual webs over a moa's single. Which is why the thorax is generally better. Range control.


DPS doesn't win you a fight alone like that you are referring to.

Edit this was only a quick check using Meta 4 mods with an all five character, but I'm pretty sure the difference remain just how high the numbers go is different.
#DeleteTheWeak
Beyonder I
Multiverse Trading
#28 - 2016-11-29 02:39:44 UTC
mkint wrote:

Could be the echo chamber. Could be you want to do stuff that gallente boats happen to be good at. There aren't a lot of good ways to measure the meta. That's kinda the definition of meta. Best way is to see what's doing all the killing and what's doing all the dying. There's more data the devs have that I don't know how to find, but usually outside 1 or 2 FOTM ships, and 1 or 2 pariah ships, overall usage tends to be pretty balanced in the game.


I guess I have my answer then. Thank you.
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