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Mission loot stealing issue and how to fix it
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Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#61 - 2016-11-13 01:46:54 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Raw Matters wrote:
I recently get loot-stolen pretty often during my missions. An issue that I thought was gone with the changes over the past years, but obviously its not. The biggest problem beside the ISK loss is that other players can steal critical mission items from the mission, making it impossible for me to complete it, with all the consequences that come with it. The mobile tractor isn't helping in this case, as it can simply be destroyed by the attacker in no time and without Concord interfering. That leaves the only option for me to attack the suspect and usually to loose my mission ship while trying.

The big problem starts with the attacker being obviously prepared for PvP while I am not. This means the attacker has all the time in the world to scan and prepare for the fight, he can even refit his ship to perfectly match my ship, and then attack just at the perfect moment. There is nothing I can do against that, as I am not allowed to engage until the attacker decides that I am allowed to. So I already start at a disadvantage, and on top of that the attacker can of course also bring his 2nd or 3rd char to join in using remote repair, so I am not only facing one well prepared enemy but several.

Should I decide to engage, the best possible outcome (assuming smart players on both sides) is that I can warp out before my ship gets destroyed. The worst possible (and also most likely) outcome is the destruction of my ship. This makes the whole loot-stealing system unfair as it is highly biased towards the attacker. While that's ok in low and 0.0, it shouldn't be the case in high-sec, that criminals are at an advantage in general.

There are several ways to fix this:

1. Usage of warp disruption in high-sec is always a criminal act, no matter why, how and who.
In this case the combat can happen, but if I feel like I am loosing, I can just warp away, and so can the other guy. This would be in line with the other Concord regulations to prevent the loss of assets and pods.

2. Assistance of a suspect is a criminal act.
In this case the attacker is still at a disadvantage, but at least the fight will be 1 vs 1. This would also solve the issue with all those unfair "duels" happening.

3. Attacking valuable player structures is a criminal act.
In this case it becomes a race between the attacker and my mobile tractor beams.

4. Looting mission specific items is a criminal act.
Kind of a band-aid fix as it lacks immersive logic, but it would at least fix the issue.


I'd prefer a combination of 1 + 2. But whatever would be the best thing, something needs to be done before this gets out of hand, again. Currently loot stealing is basically without consequence, as it would be stupid to defend yourself against it.

Or better yet, fit for PvP and give them a nasty surprise.

Why do you think all of my mission running ships have a scram or point? I WANT them to come in. Shocked
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#62 - 2016-11-13 01:56:08 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
So many people that want on my ignore list... so little space.

Maybe it would be a good idea to clean up this forum of PvP wannabe-whiners that downvote everything that could even remotely be considered anti-pvp even if it is pro-pvp but that would mean to actually read and think before starting the default whine. Discussing issues helps, crying and whining doesn't. See USA right now.

What is there to discuss? You want to remove PvP from highsec for protection.

Um...no.

You do not understand that it has become safer and safer for carebears in highsec than ever before and it only continues to get safer for you. Now you want to take that last leap to ensure you are completely safe and protected in highsec.

Well, the problem is when you come to C+P and start whining, you put a target on your back. I am almost temped to create a trash corporation and wardec you. Why?

Because I can...at least for now I can. Thanks CCP.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#63 - 2016-11-13 02:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Donnachadh wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
One thing you're seeming to forget, Donnie, is that once someone loots a can, anyone can shoot them. Provided the carebear isn't stupid enough to shoot, his friends in their PvP ships can warp in and engage the suspect while he stays nice, safe, and limited engagement timer free. Yes, this works, and in most major mission hubs, there's usually people chasing suspects around, at least when I was last there.

I am not forgetting anything, perhaps you need to train dictionary to a higher level than you currently have it. To protect someone is to prevent any harm from coming to them, as in not being shot at and having their ships damaged or destroyed. If you were protecting someone then you would destroy the gankers or looters as soon as they appeared in the pocket. Problem is if you try this in high sec you end up with the distinct pleasure of watching from your pod as the gankers destroy your friend anyway all courtesy of Concord.

You and the rest of the PvP crowd can try and spin this which ever way you want, but in high sec there simply is no such thing as "protecting" your friends. You can retaliate once they have been attacked, and within a limited amount of time you can extract your revenge on them, but you cannot protect them.

I think it's you who should be training dictionary here.

Your definition of protection is wrong.

Across a few threads you've shown an inability to comprehend, so I'm not surprised.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#64 - 2016-11-13 10:51:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Raw Matters
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Ah, so when confronted with reasonable solutions directly contradicting your complaints, you stick your fingers in your ears and shout "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" as loudly as possible.

I posted this entire thread because I'd like to hear suggestions and counter-proposals to the issue I presented. Some people in this thread however do not want to discuss, they want their opinion to be the one true and only way of playing the game. Talking to such people is a waste of time, because the only thing you possibly get back are insults. See the post above.

Quote:
You literally just suggested making the vast majority of ways to mess with mission runners a suicidal act. Including tackling anything inside a limited engagement or while at war. How on earth does this increase the number of ships exploding? I read, I thought, I provided suggestions to stop ninja looters. You chose to lash out with ad hominem attacks.

No, I presented an issue and asked for ideas how to fix it in the best way possible and gave my own ideas. If you think that those are flawed feel free to add your ideas, because that's what a discussion is about. Saying "All you did is bad!" and giving no counter-proposal then waiting for one single person to come up with better ideas is crying.


Why there is an issue? Because stealing the one loot item required to complete is a flaw in the system. The loot ninja in question is actually actively going for the mission item to prevent the player from completing the mission for whatever fun he might get out of that. There is no profit intention, it is just harassing people. Now if you are optimizing your ship to complete the mission - obviously - and he optimizes his ship to steal the mission specific loot, then he will win at least most of the time. So if a single person is capable of making mission completion impossible for many people by a single act, it is the same flaw as when a single alliance was capable of removing T2 ships from the game. CCP corrected it and I hope CCP will correct this flaw as well. It's ok if he can have all the rest and loot and whatever, but the player should at least be able to complete the mission.

Quote:
You want to remove PvP from highsec for protection.

There is currently no PvP. I know that he has a PvP fitted Machariel with remote rep backup and I need a fleet to kill him. That's for once outside of my abilities right now and for second not worth the trouble. So I - and many others in my situation - ignore that guy, or warp out immediately if there is a mission item required, since you won't get that before him which makes completing the mission a waste of time. Effectively as much PvP happenes as with smart-bombing a shuttle warping in on a gate: none.

A good solution would allow me to actually fight back without having to call in a group of friend to do that for me. I in my ship want to be able to shoot that guy in the face, then see who wins or looses. But currently the system is favoring the attacker so much, that doing that is suicidal. He is better prepared, because he prepared for PvP and I did for mission. He has his friends/alts already right there, I would have to call them, then probably wait for hours till he strikes again. And on top of that Eve has become a universe, where a fully fitted Machariel for PvP no longer costs a billion ISK, but 8€. So if he happens to be rich outside the game and I am not, then he can just thrown Machariels at me till I suffocate in them.

There are several flaws in this system right now that prevent PvP from happening, and I'd like to find ideas to change that so PvP can actually happen again.
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#65 - 2016-11-13 14:46:05 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
I posted this entire thread because I'd like to hear suggestions and counter-proposals to the issue I presented. Some people in this thread however do not want to discuss, they want their opinion to be the one true and only way of playing the game. Talking to such people is a waste of time, because the only thing you possibly get back are insults. See the post above.

I've seen plenty of discussion and suggestions. It's just discussions and suggestions you don't want to hear, because it's mostly "working as intended" and stuff you don't want to do because you're too busy min-maxing your ISK/hour.

Raw Matters wrote:
No, I presented an issue and asked for ideas how to fix it in the best way possible and gave my own ideas. If you think that those are flawed feel free to add your ideas, because that's what a discussion is about. Saying "All you did is bad!" and giving no counter-proposal then waiting for one single person to come up with better ideas is crying.

This here argument is flawed, because it assums there is is a problem that needs to be solved. My counter-proposal is change nothing. I don't need a further one because you haven't proved that there is a problem with the game itself.

Raw Matters wrote:
Why there is an issue? Because stealing the one loot item required to complete is a flaw in the system. The loot ninja in question is actually actively going for the mission item to prevent the player from completing the mission for whatever fun he might get out of that. There is no profit intention, it is just harassing people. Now if you are optimizing your ship to complete the mission - obviously - and he optimizes his ship to steal the mission specific loot, then he will win at least most of the time. So if a single person is capable of making mission completion impossible for many people by a single act, it is the same flaw as when a single alliance was capable of removing T2 ships from the game. CCP corrected it and I hope CCP will correct this flaw as well. It's ok if he can have all the rest and loot and whatever, but the player should at least be able to complete the mission.

He's hoping you'll shoot him so he can kill you and take your stuff. Profit motive. I still fail to see that flaw in the system, that's intended to promote player interaction. Instead of complaining endlessly, figure out a way to counter it.

Raw Matters wrote:
There is currently no PvP. I know that he has a PvP fitted Machariel with remote rep backup and I need a fleet to kill him. That's for once outside of my abilities right now and for second not worth the trouble. So I - and many others in my situation - ignore that guy, or warp out immediately if there is a mission item required, since you won't get that before him which makes completing the mission a waste of time. Effectively as much PvP happenes as with smart-bombing a shuttle warping in on a gate: none.

A good solution would allow me to actually fight back without having to call in a group of friend to do that for me. I in my ship want to be able to shoot that guy in the face, then see who wins or looses. But currently the system is favoring the attacker so much, that doing that is suicidal. He is better prepared, because he prepared for PvP and I did for mission. He has his friends/alts already right there, I would have to call them, then probably wait for hours till he strikes again. And on top of that Eve has become a universe, where a fully fitted Machariel for PvP no longer costs a billion ISK, but 8€. So if he happens to be rich outside the game and I am not, then he can just thrown Machariels at me till I suffocate in them.

If he's not worth the trouble of fighting, why on earth would it matter whether or not you're PvE or PvP fit? Besides, that right there is player versus player interaction. I don't have to shoot you to PvP.
We already have that, it's called a suspect timer. Unfortunately, if you fit your mission ship for max ISK/hour you won't win, and that's your fault. There are plenty of ways to keep a mission invader interested in hanging around. Lock him up and talk smack in local until your friends have reshipped into combat ships.
lol @ eve=p2w. It's pay2avoidgrinding, perhaps, but paying more real money doesn't give him a significant advantage over you.
Raw Matters wrote:
There are several flaws in this system right now that prevent PvP from happening, and I'd like to find ideas to change that so PvP can actually happen again.

You clearly don't want PvP, as evidenced by the fact you constantly rail against interactions that result in it and express a desire to remove warp disruption, which is pretty much vital to have PvP.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#66 - 2016-11-13 16:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Raw Matters
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
You clearly don't want PvP, as evidenced by the fact you constantly rail against interactions that result in it and express a desire to remove warp disruption, which is pretty much vital to have PvP.

That's what I meant with waste of time. All you say is "PvP is fine, get gud!!" and decorate it with some sentences that show very clearly that you haven't spent a single second even trying to understand what I wrote.

And that is the reason that I said this forum probably needs a little cleanup so ideas and features can actually be discussed again. Currently it seems heavily infested with the plague of people commenting "Everything is fine, quit the game!", scaring everyone away who had the intention of improving this game, because those people are so heavily afraid that things might change. But on a long term blocking off fresh ideas and feedback is hurting the game, I've seen a few games even dying from that toxic behavior.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#67 - 2016-11-13 16:24:54 UTC
Removing tackle from highsec doesn't improve the game though?

I mean, sure, you make it easier for me as an outlaw to run through, but you also completley remove any form of pvp except for suicide ganking.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#68 - 2016-11-13 17:51:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Raw Matters wrote:
I posted this entire thread because I'd like to hear suggestions and counter-proposals to the issue I presented. Some people in this thread however do not want to discuss, they want their opinion to be the one true and only way of playing the game. Talking to such people is a waste of time, because the only thing you possibly get back are insults. See the post above.
The counter proposal is to leave it well alone, ninja looting mission items has existed since beta and is allowed to happen because it's a conflict driver of sorts.

Your posting is basically caterwauling because others disagree with you.

Quote:

No, I presented an issue and asked for ideas how to fix it in the best way possible and gave my own ideas. If you think that those are flawed feel free to add your ideas, because that's what a discussion is about. Saying "All you did is bad!" and giving no counter-proposal then waiting for one single person to come up with better ideas is crying.

Why there is an issue? Because stealing the one loot item required to complete is a flaw in the system. The loot ninja in question is actually actively going for the mission item to prevent the player from completing the mission for whatever fun he might get out of that. There is no profit intention, it is just harassing people. Now if you are optimizing your ship to complete the mission - obviously - and he optimizes his ship to steal the mission specific loot, then he will win at least most of the time.
It's not an issue, it is an allowed playstyle; thus there is no need to fix it.

Your lack of preparedness for PvP is your problem, not ours.

Quote:
So if a single person is capable of making mission completion impossible for many people by a single act, it is the same flaw as when a single alliance was capable of removing T2 ships from the game. CCP corrected it and I hope CCP will correct this flaw as well. It's ok if he can have all the rest and loot and whatever, but the player should at least be able to complete the mission.
Wat™?

Quote:
There is currently no PvP. I know that he has a PvP fitted Machariel with remote rep backup and I need a fleet to kill him. That's for once outside of my abilities right now and for second not worth the trouble. So I - and many others in my situation - ignore that guy, or warp out immediately if there is a mission item required, since you won't get that before him which makes completing the mission a waste of time. Effectively as much PvP happenes as with smart-bombing a shuttle warping in on a gate: none.
If he robs a can/wreck he goes suspect, if people remote rep him they inherit his suspect flag and you can shoot them too.

PvP is player vs player; it's still PvP if one of those players isn't prepared for it by virtue of them being a player Roll

Quote:
A good solution would allow me to actually fight back without having to call in a group of friend to do that for me. I in my ship want to be able to shoot that guy in the face, then see who wins or looses. But currently the system is favoring the attacker so much, that doing that is suicidal. He is better prepared, because he prepared for PvP and I did for mission. He has his friends/alts already right there, I would have to call them, then probably wait for hours till he strikes again. And on top of that Eve has become a universe, where a fully fitted Machariel for PvP no longer costs a billion ISK, but 8€. So if he happens to be rich outside the game and I am not, then he can just thrown Machariels at me till I suffocate in them.

There are several flaws in this system right now that prevent PvP from happening, and I'd like to find ideas to change that so PvP can actually happen again.
You can fight back, shoot him in the face; the fact that you'll probably lose because you chose to use a ship fit that is specialised for the mission is neither here nor there.

Please point out the flaws in the game design that are preventing PvP from happening, because from where I'm sitting the only thing that is preventing PvP from happening is you.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#69 - 2016-11-13 18:06:06 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
You clearly don't want PvP, as evidenced by the fact you constantly rail against interactions that result in it and express a desire to remove warp disruption, which is pretty much vital to have PvP.

That's what I meant with waste of time. All you say is "PvP is fine, get gud!!" and decorate it with some sentences that show very clearly that you haven't spent a single second even trying to understand what I wrote.

And that is the reason that I said this forum probably needs a little cleanup so ideas and features can actually be discussed again. Currently it seems heavily infested with the plague of people commenting "Everything is fine, quit the game!", scaring everyone away who had the intention of improving this game, because those people are so heavily afraid that things might change. But on a long term blocking off fresh ideas and feedback is hurting the game, I've seen a few games even dying from that toxic behavior.

You're right. This is a waste of time. I have spent plenty of time reading and understanding what you have written, more that I should have and certainly more than you deserve. And you have not improved. You have yet to escape your carebear mentality and accept the reality of nonconsensual player vs player interactions. You most certainly do need to 'get gud' because CCP is not going to help you. The forum does not need a cleanup. It is also working as intended, shooting down bad carebear ideas. I don't need to tell you to quit the game, from the sounds of it you are well on that road yourself. I don't fear change, I fear bad change. The final nail in the coffin of EvE will not be because someone was shut down for being a carebear, but it will be when CCP abandons the motto of HTFU and dumbs down the gameplay for the benefit of the bearish masses.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
GROUND XERO
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#70 - 2016-11-14 09:28:02 UTC
ok 2 ideas:

- what you call PVP in highsec is nothing more than ganking those who have no clue what is happening and most of the time it is not player vs player but a horde or dudes vs one carebear! Shocked
From the view from a new player it might feel not that good that something like that could happen in High! again and again and again and og again ! Same problem than ganking anyship in high!
- to steal is a crime so the idea to get concorded for it is not that bad ... criminals need to get punished :_) esp. those you just step on the noobs in this game and make em ragequit Blink

NCPL (Necromonger of new Eden) will make EVE great again!
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#71 - 2016-11-14 12:08:28 UTC
GROUND XERO wrote:
ok 2 ideas:

- what you call PVP in highsec is nothing more than ganking those who have no clue what is happening and most of the time it is not player vs player but a horde or dudes vs one carebear! Shocked
From the view from a new player it might feel not that good that something like that could happen in High! again and again and again and og again ! Same problem than ganking anyship in high!
- to steal is a crime so the idea to get concorded for it is not that bad ... criminals need to get punished :_) esp. those you just step on the noobs in this game and make em ragequit Blink


- You're first point is called learning a lesson. This game, much like life, tests you first and gives the lesson afterwards.
- If you never learn, then you deserve to have it happen to you again and again. EVE is a hardcore game, its not designed to protect stupid.
- Yep, thats why they go suspect and you can shoot them. You are supposed to exact your own justice in this game.
- Again, according to the players themselves, the proportion of players leaving due to ship loss is less than 1%. Yet 80% of players who hardly interact with other players and just mission leave after a few month.


You should read this and section 7 of this.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs