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Mission loot stealing issue and how to fix it

Author
Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#21 - 2016-11-11 12:36:00 UTC
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding how missions work. This is in general a solo experience and to make any reasonable amount of ISK you need to be able to do them solo and fast. Solutions like "Asks your friends to protect you" would require me to pay them 80m ISK/h for the 40m ISK/h I make from missions just to cover what they cannot make by standing by for the occasional loot ninja. And then I just even the odds.

Also flying with PvP equipment is a death sentence for certain missions, where you have to use every available slot perfectly fitted against the enemies to a) survive and b) do missions fast because ISK/h. Sitting in a battleship I need at least 3 mid slots to be competitive to a PvP aggressor, that would leave a shield tanker 3 slots for defense, which dramatically increases the chance to explode even without PvP interference.

Also you cannot buy mission objectives for most missions simply because no one would sell the only possible item that is required to complete the mission. There are certain missions that drop extra items like the good ol' militants, but that's an exception to the rule. So most of the time if the ninja looter gets the mission objective you are screwed and can basically log off for the day, because you cannot abandon the mission, so you have to wait for the next restart so the mission gets reset, this time hopefully without ninja looter.

And how would I get there first? Sitting in a battleship that is already slower than a MWD Battlecruiser and then again and MWD is hardly a good choice for a mission ship because you need the slot and the cap to do the actual mission.

And on top of that I am by no means suggesting to stop PvP, I am actually proposing the opposite: if disrupters are forbidden in High-Sec then the very first thing I would do is to fight back. So this would actually increase PvP by a lot, but I guess that is the actual fear of all those PvP-carebears in this thread, that the target is fighting back and they might actually loose a fight.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#22 - 2016-11-11 13:21:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
But you are proposing an end to PvP. You've suggested making lots of things criminal flags.

That means CONCORD responds and kills the other player for you so you can PvE in peace. You would also receive killrights that can be made public against the other player for 30 days, limiting what he might be able to fly in that period.

That is very much an end to PvP.
Iain Cariaba
#23 - 2016-11-11 14:11:03 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding how missions work. This is in general a solo experience and to make any reasonable amount of ISK you need to be able to do them solo and fast. Solutions like "Asks your friends to protect you" would require me to pay them 80m ISK/h for the 40m ISK/h I make from missions just to cover what they cannot make by standing by for the occasional loot ninja. And then I just even the odds.

If you're playing EvE solo, you're doing it wrong. It's as simple as that.

If your friends won't come run missions with you, you need a better quality of friends.

Raw Matters wrote:
Also flying with PvP equipment is a death sentence for certain missions, where you have to use every available slot perfectly fitted against the enemies to a) survive and b) do missions fast because ISK/h. Sitting in a battleship I need at least 3 mid slots to be competitive to a PvP aggressor, that would leave a shield tanker 3 slots for defense, which dramatically increases the chance to explode even without PvP interference.

Outside burner missions, name one mission where you have to have a ship fit absolutely perfectly or you can't do it? I've run every single lvl 4 mission, outside burners, in an effing drake. Perhaps the phrase "git gud" applies here?

Raw Matters wrote:
Also you cannot buy mission objectives for most missions simply because no one would sell the only possible item that is required to complete the mission. There are certain missions that drop extra items like the good ol' militants, but that's an exception to the rule. So most of the time if the ninja looter gets the mission objective you are screwed and can basically log off for the day, because you cannot abandon the mission, so you have to wait for the next restart so the mission gets reset, this time hopefully without ninja looter.

Wrong. Look in contracts, that's where you find most mission items. Additionally, if you're not a whiny liitle carebear about it, most loot thieves will sell you the mission item for a decent price. After this thread that you started, however, don't expect to ever get your items back, and expect to have more people chasing you down.

Raw Matters wrote:
And how would I get there first? Sitting in a battleship that is already slower than a MWD Battlecruiser and then again and MWD is hardly a good choice for a mission ship because you need the slot and the cap to do the actual mission.

Perhaps you need to learn how to use a MWD. I only fit MWD, MJD, or both on my mission ships. AB is a waste of time.

Raw Matters wrote:
And on top of that I am by no means suggesting to stop PvP, I am actually proposing the opposite: if disrupters are forbidden in High-Sec then the very first thing I would do is to fight back. So this would actually increase PvP by a lot, but I guess that is the actual fear of all those PvP-carebears in this thread, that the target is fighting back and they might actually loose a fight.

I think you need to re-read the GCC rules, as if completely removing all nonconsentual highsec PvP isn't your goal, then you're misusing the words suspect and criminal. Suspect flag allows anyone to shoot you, criminal flag gets you Concorded if you're in anything but a pod.

Here's how your suggestions work under GCC.

1. The whole "no matter why, how and who" bit at the end make players get concorded for pointing wartargets. This is direct removal of nonconsentual highsec PvP, as there's absolutely no way to keep legal targets from warping away.
2. So my corpmate drops in on you, loots one of your wrecks to get a suspect flag, and you run screaming like a little girl from the big bad suspect. Now, by time my corpmate has warped out of your mission, he's down to 20% armor on a shield tanked ship. Your idea would have me concorded for using my armor repair drones to bring him back if I don't wait the 14m 59s between when you panic warped and his suspect timer expired.
3. Attacking valuable player structures is already a criminal act. Deployables, like the MTU, are not valuable structures, hence the suspect flag.
4. Looting anything from another player's wreck is a suspect act, and makes you a target for everyone. You're directly asking CCP to intervene because you are unwilling to take the necessary steps to protect yourself. In all the years I've spent missioning in highsec through my decade plus in EvE, I've had mission items stolen from me twice. It's not hard to make yourself less of a target to the loot thieves.

Here's a suggestion. Go see your medical care provider, ask him to perform a rectal-cranial extraction, realize you're not playing a solo game, and ask people in your mission hub who the groups around there that chase suspects is.
Dark Lord Trump
0.0 Massive Dynamic
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2016-11-11 14:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dark Lord Trump
Raw Matters wrote:
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding how missions work. This is in general a solo experience and to make any reasonable amount of ISK you need to be able to do them solo and fast. Solutions like "Asks your friends to protect you" would require me to pay them 80m ISK/h for the 40m ISK/h I make from missions just to cover what they cannot make by standing by for the occasional loot ninja. And then I just even the odds.

Also flying with PvP equipment is a death sentence for certain missions, where you have to use every available slot perfectly fitted against the enemies to a) survive and b) do missions fast because ISK/h. Sitting in a battleship I need at least 3 mid slots to be competitive to a PvP aggressor, that would leave a shield tanker 3 slots for defense, which dramatically increases the chance to explode even without PvP interference.

Also you cannot buy mission objectives for most missions simply because no one would sell the only possible item that is required to complete the mission. There are certain missions that drop extra items like the good ol' militants, but that's an exception to the rule. So most of the time if the ninja looter gets the mission objective you are screwed and can basically log off for the day, because you cannot abandon the mission, so you have to wait for the next restart so the mission gets reset, this time hopefully without ninja looter.

And how would I get there first? Sitting in a battleship that is already slower than a MWD Battlecruiser and then again and MWD is hardly a good choice for a mission ship because you need the slot and the cap to do the actual mission.

And on top of that I am by no means suggesting to stop PvP, I am actually proposing the opposite: if disrupters are forbidden in High-Sec then the very first thing I would do is to fight back. So this would actually increase PvP by a lot, but I guess that is the actual fear of all those PvP-carebears in this thread, that the target is fighting back and they might actually loose a fight.

There seems be be a lot of misunderstanding how Eve works. You are never safe from player interaction, no matter where you are, and you never should be.

If your friends won't protect you, then get better friends. Or cheaper friends. Or offer them something other than money, i.e. if you help me when a ninja looter steals my mission objective, then I'll help you when the same happens.

If fitting for PvP is a death sentence in certain missions, then don't take those missions. If you absolutely must have the best ISK/hour possible, then you choose a complete inability to PvP, and you lose the respect of everyone here when you whine about it.

If you can't use a shield battleship for PvP utility, then use an armor BS. Or better yet, one of those super tanky marauders with some neuts in the utility highs.

Instead of logging off, run missions for another agent. Then you can come back to the one that got stolen.

To get there first, can't you just burn to the location where the mission objective spawns? That way you're ready to swipe it as soon as it spawns.

You most certainly are killing hisec PvP, with the exception of suicide ganking, which somehow in your flailings you failed to complain about. Kudos for that. In order to kill anything, you need to keep it from warping off somehow, and the vast majority of that is done via warp disruptor or scrambler. Making that a criminal act will drastically reduce the number of ships exploding, which makes for **** poor PvP. It's not fear of losing a fight, it's a fear of having their targets warp off once they hit structure every single time.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!

Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
#25 - 2016-11-11 14:37:50 UTC
Pvp is often used as shorthand for player versus player combat. In this thread this seems to be the case as well. When using the broader definition of player versus player gameplay though, it's easy to realize that the OP already does this, but wants to outlaw strategies that aren't his own.

As a mission runner you sell goods from the LP store. And even if you are not actively fighting the 0.01 ISK war against other mission runners, you are still stealing customers from them. This remains true even if you're only farming the stuff for personal use, since otherwise you yourself might be a customer. And at the end of the day the mission runner that farmed enough LP for 2 RF Gyros has accomplished just as much as the mission runner who has only farmed one, but can sell it for twice as much since he has kept 20 other people from putting theirs on the market*. (Ballpark figures, but you get the idea)


Also while figuring out a new mission for the first time can be exciting, rescuing the damsel for the third time all on your own can be pretty bland. As someone who switched to combat exploration (slightly different from missioning and with more player interaction) I have to say this: A contested site is a challenge. An uncontested site is a chore.




* Same is true for ISK from bounties and rewards, although mission runners are way below carrier ratters there.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#26 - 2016-11-11 14:56:18 UTC
don't use MTUs and use d-scan constantly, warp out if you see probes, no one will ever actually scan down your pocket.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#27 - 2016-11-11 15:35:15 UTC
In general I am against the op ideas.

Instead of all the hassles as proposed a simpler solution would be space magic where mission required items simply appear in your cargo hold when you kill the right thing, get to the right place etc. Would not really affect the ninja looters and the gankers but solves the basic problem the OP is asking to solve.

OP setting your wrecks as abandoned as you create them has been an effective tool for me.
Ninja looters that are there for the loot appreciate you doing this since it removes any possibility that they would be attacked. At least to this point in time the vast majority of them have returned any mission required items when asked.
Those who warp into your missions to fight you will often simply warp out when faced with field of blue wrecks. No wrecks to steal from and no MTU they have nothing left but a direct ganking style attack on your ship. Even then the blue wrecks serve as a warning tool, if they do not warp out immediately when faced with a field of blue then you best warp out now while you still have the chance because it is likely they are a scout for a gank squad.

As usual I fell off my chair laughing at the bring friends to protect you comments. We are talking about high sec here folks, you know the place where friends are worthless because they can do nothing to protect you because aggression mechanics. When these comments are posted one has to wonder how long it has been since that person actually spent any time in high sec.

When applied to the problem of someone stealing mission required items friends can helpful often getting to the required items before anyone else.

As others have mentioned these required items are usually available in the contract system, and even if they are not quitting the occasional mission because is not that big of a standing hit and easily and quickly overcome If this is happening to you enough that the combined standing hits would be problematic then I propose that you need to find another area to mission in.
Iain Cariaba
#28 - 2016-11-11 16:47:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
Donnachadh wrote:
In general I am against the op ideas.

Instead of all the hassles as proposed a simpler solution would be space magic where mission required items simply appear in your cargo hold when you kill the right thing, get to the right place etc. Would not really affect the ninja looters and the gankers but solves the basic problem the OP is asking to solve.

OP setting your wrecks as abandoned as you create them has been an effective tool for me.
Ninja looters that are there for the loot appreciate you doing this since it removes any possibility that they would be attacked. At least to this point in time the vast majority of them have returned any mission required items when asked.
Those who warp into your missions to fight you will often simply warp out when faced with field of blue wrecks. No wrecks to steal from and no MTU they have nothing left but a direct ganking style attack on your ship. Even then the blue wrecks serve as a warning tool, if they do not warp out immediately when faced with a field of blue then you best warp out now while you still have the chance because it is likely they are a scout for a gank squad.

As usual I fell off my chair laughing at the bring friends to protect you comments. We are talking about high sec here folks, you know the place where friends are worthless because they can do nothing to protect you because aggression mechanics. When these comments are posted one has to wonder how long it has been since that person actually spent any time in high sec.

When applied to the problem of someone stealing mission required items friends can helpful often getting to the required items before anyone else.

As others have mentioned these required items are usually available in the contract system, and even if they are not quitting the occasional mission because is not that big of a standing hit and easily and quickly overcome If this is happening to you enough that the combined standing hits would be problematic then I propose that you need to find another area to mission in.

In the case of highsec mission runners, the "bring friends" bit can have many aspects.

One thing you're seeming to forget, Donnie, is that once someone loots a can, anyone can shoot them. Provided the carebear isn't stupid enough to shoot, his friends in their PvP ships can warp in and engage the suspect while he stays nice, safe, and limited engagement timer free. Yes, this works, and in most major mission hubs, there's usually people chasing suspects around, at least when I was last there.

Another way to "bring friends" is to bring more mission runners and blitz the sites. The less time you're in the site, the less time thieves have to probe you down.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#29 - 2016-11-11 17:47:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Gadget Helmsdottir
Quote:
If you're playing EvE solo, you're doing it wrong. It's as simple as that.


Never agreed with this.
If you want to play EvE solo, go ahead, there's nothing wrong with it at all.
Just understand that some "NPC's" are smarter than others...
...almost humanly so. Blink

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Iain Cariaba
#30 - 2016-11-11 19:56:49 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Quote:
If you're playing EvE solo, you're doing it wrong. It's as simple as that.


Never agreed with this.
If you want to play EvE solo, go ahead, there's nothing wrong with it at all.
Just understand that some "NPC's" are smarter than others...
...almost humanly so. Blink

--Gadget

And if you're playing solo and get outnumbered 3:1, then it is entirely your fault you got outnumbered.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#31 - 2016-11-11 19:59:00 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Quote:
If you're playing EvE solo, you're doing it wrong. It's as simple as that.


Never agreed with this.
If you want to play EvE solo, go ahead, there's nothing wrong with it at all.
Just understand that some "NPC's" are smarter than others...
...almost humanly so. Blink

--Gadget

And if you're playing solo and get outnumbered 3:1, then it is entirely your fault you got outnumbered.


Totally agreed.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Sitting Bull Lakota
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2016-11-12 00:20:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sitting Bull Lakota
Raw Matters wrote:
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding how missions work. This is in general a solo experience and to make any reasonable amount of ISK you need to be able to do them solo and fast. Solutions like "Asks your friends to protect you" would require me to pay them 80m ISK/h for the 40m ISK/h [Is mutual benefit and acting for eachother's common good not payment enough?] I make from missions just to cover what they cannot make by standing by for the occasional loot ninja. And then I just even the odds. [Sounds like a personal problem]

Also flying with PvP equipment is a death sentence for certain missions, where you have to use every available slot perfectly fitted against the enemies to a) survive and b) do missions fast because ISK/h. [Apparently lost ISK/h is a "death sentence"] Sitting in a battleship I need at least 3 mid slots to be competitive to a PvP aggressor, that would leave a shield tanker 3 slots for defense, which dramatically increases the chance to explode even without PvP interference. [Makes me wonder how shield tanked pvp ships work]

Also you cannot buy mission objectives for most missions simply because no one would sell the only possible item that is required to complete the mission [Are you sure? Have you checked?] There are certain missions that drop extra items like the good ol' militants, but that's an exception to the rule. So most of the time if the ninja looter gets the mission objective you are screwed and can basically log off for the day [That seems like hyperbole.] because you cannot abandon the mission, so you have to wait for the next restart so the mission gets reset, this time hopefully without ninja looter [Run-on sentence.]

And how would I get there first? Sitting in a battleship that is already slower than a MWD Battlecruiser and then again and MWD is hardly a good choice for a mission ship because you need the slot and the cap to do the actual mission Since when is it a bad idea to put a prop mod on a missionany ship?]

And on top of that I am by no means suggesting to stop PvP [you are], I am actually proposing the opposite [you are not]: if disrupters are forbidden in High-Sec [PvP would be pointless. Get it?] then the very first thing I would do is to fight back [Because you wouldn't be risking anything]. So this would actually increase PvP [LoL] by a lot[LoL], but I guess that is the actual fear of all those PvP-carebears [LoL] in this thread, that the target is fighting back and they might actually loose a fight [LoL]


Seriously, though, get some mates that all run missions in the same area. You should make up a couple of response ships to tackle the ninjas.
When a ninja shows up, target lock him to keep him interested and smack him in local. Link his name and your system to fleet chat so your mates can fit up some counters and figure out how "solo" he is.
Mates warp to you and hold down the ninja, and you get a nice shiny killmark for your dps fit battleship.

Rinse ; repeat ad nauseum.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#33 - 2016-11-12 00:24:30 UTC
I'm a carebear, I was once not happy with idiotic players stealing, I still don't like them but ultimately I don't give a sht about them or the loot, the loot is as one other pointed out almost entirely trash, so I could care less if I get trash pickers picking thru the trash, but if it's the principal of it just blow up wrecks as you go.

Most of those players who do this stealing fall into 2 categories

1. Low skill player who can't earn anything so they go for the lowest hanging fruit, most of them will never stay long term in the game because they have no real plans and just wander around.


2. A grief baiter, another type of low life who calls it PVP but they are almost entirely after lolz.


Both are trash, both should be ignored, there are things you can do doo to keep the poop at bay but it requires that you take steps to layer you game play.
Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#34 - 2016-11-12 00:47:09 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Both are trash, both should be ignored, there are things you can do doo to keep the poop at bay but it requires that you take steps to layer you game play.

That is about what I do right now, but as a good Minmatar I wish I could shoot them in the face. Just that the system currently favors the loot ninja so much, that I either have to pay someone for backup or just give him the loot and let him run. But at least the mission objectives shouldn't be stealable, this makes griefing just too easy.
Iain Cariaba
#35 - 2016-11-12 01:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
Raw Matters wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Both are trash, both should be ignored, there are things you can do doo to keep the poop at bay but it requires that you take steps to layer you game play.

That is about what I do right now, but as a good Minmatar I wish I could shoot them in the face. Just that the system currently favors the loot ninja so much, that I either have to pay someone for backup or just give him the loot and let him run. But at least the mission objectives shouldn't be stealable, this makes griefing just too easy.

Why shouldn't I be able to steal your mission objectives? So far you've failed to provide any reasoning beyond "grr PvPers." If you want to overturn one of the core tenets of EvE, the fact that at no time are you 100% safe, you need a much better reason than you getting butthurt that someone took your cookie.

Perhaps you should try playing the game. Right now you're nothing more than an NPC with a slightly better AI and much better reward for making you pop.
Dark Lord Trump
0.0 Massive Dynamic
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2016-11-12 01:22:31 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Both are trash, both should be ignored, there are things you can do doo to keep the poop at bay but it requires that you take steps to layer you game play.

That is about what I do right now, but as a good Minmatar I wish I could shoot them in the face. Just that the system currently favors the loot ninja so much, that I either have to pay someone for backup or just give him the loot and let him run. But at least the mission objectives shouldn't be stealable, this makes griefing just too easy.

The system doesn't favor the loot ninja. Your lack of preparedness does. You are not entitled to a fair fight, it's your job to make the fight as fair as possible for you. If you can't be bothered to do that, don't come crying to CCP.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!

Atomeon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2016-11-12 01:51:07 UTC
You know you can always change mission hub, some of them are popular and get crowded of ....
Find a nice quiet system and mission there :)
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#38 - 2016-11-12 01:56:37 UTC
You know , funnily enough, I have a can with loads of mission item's.
You looking to buy op?
Iain Cariaba
#39 - 2016-11-12 08:24:50 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
You know , funnily enough, I have a can with loads of mission item's.
You looking to buy op?

IKR. I have a bit as well, Raw, though nowhere near as much as Ralph does. I did it for about a week before some former corpmates asked me to go back to null, but I'll sell you what I have for a reasonable price.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2016-11-12 10:14:01 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
...Bottom line: It's not yours until it's in your cargo hold...


...and you are in dock.

A minor but important correction :D