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Mission loot stealing issue and how to fix it

Author
Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#1 - 2016-11-10 22:27:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Raw Matters
I recently get loot-stolen pretty often during my missions. An issue that I thought was gone with the changes over the past years, but obviously its not. The biggest problem beside the ISK loss is that other players can steal critical mission items from the mission, making it impossible for me to complete it, with all the consequences that come with it. The mobile tractor isn't helping in this case, as it can simply be destroyed by the attacker in no time and without Concord interfering. That leaves the only option for me to attack the suspect and usually to loose my mission ship while trying.

The big problem starts with the attacker being obviously prepared for PvP while I am not. This means the attacker has all the time in the world to scan and prepare for the fight, he can even refit his ship to perfectly match my ship, and then attack just at the perfect moment. There is nothing I can do against that, as I am not allowed to engage until the attacker decides that I am allowed to. So I already start at a disadvantage, and on top of that the attacker can of course also bring his 2nd or 3rd char to join in using remote repair, so I am not only facing one well prepared enemy but several.

Should I decide to engage, the best possible outcome (assuming smart players on both sides) is that I can warp out before my ship gets destroyed. The worst possible (and also most likely) outcome is the destruction of my ship. This makes the whole loot-stealing system unfair as it is highly biased towards the attacker. While that's ok in low and 0.0, it shouldn't be the case in high-sec, that criminals are at an advantage in general.

There are several ways to fix this:

1. Usage of warp disruption in high-sec is always a criminal act, no matter why, how and who.
In this case the combat can happen, but if I feel like I am loosing, I can just warp away, and so can the other guy. This would be in line with the other Concord regulations to prevent the loss of assets and pods.

2. Assistance of a suspect is a criminal act.
In this case the attacker is still at a disadvantage, but at least the fight will be 1 vs 1. This would also solve the issue with all those unfair "duels" happening.

3. Attacking valuable player structures is a criminal act.
In this case it becomes a race between the attacker and my mobile tractor beams.

4. Looting mission specific items is a criminal act.
Kind of a band-aid fix as it lacks immersive logic, but it would at least fix the issue.


I'd prefer a combination of 1 + 2. But whatever would be the best thing, something needs to be done before this gets out of hand, again. Currently loot stealing is basically without consequence, as it would be stupid to defend yourself against it.
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#2 - 2016-11-10 22:34:06 UTC
I'm generally pretty okay with ninja looting, but it would be cool if the mission agent had a way to tell if your mission loot got stolen by another capsuleer so as not to lose standings or have to incur the wrath of the mission cooldown timer.

I think the actual act of ninja looting is pretty balanced already. Maybe AI should try and switch targets to the player that looted a mission critical widget or something though. Seems like they'd do that anyway.
Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#3 - 2016-11-10 22:35:16 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:
I think the actual act of ninja looting is pretty balanced already.

Care to explain how it is balanced if I am facing 3:1 and the other one is better prepared?
Dark Lord Trump
0.0 Massive Dynamic
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2016-11-10 22:51:15 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
I recently get loot-stolen pretty often during my missions. An issue that I thought was gone with the changes over the past years, but obviously its not. The biggest problem beside the ISK loss is that other players can steal critical mission items from the mission, making it impossible for me to complete it, with all the consequences that come with it. The mobile tractor isn't helping in this case, as it can simply be destroyed by the attacker in no time and without Concord interfering. That leaves the only option for me to attack the suspect and usually to loose my mission ship while trying.

The big problem starts with the attacker being obviously prepared for PvP while I am not. This means the attacker has all the time in the world to scan and prepare for the fight, he can even refit his ship to perfectly match my ship, and then attack just at the perfect moment. There is nothing I can do against that, as I am not allowed to engage until the attacker decides that I am allowed to. So I already start at a disadvantage, and on top of that the attacker can of course also bring his 2nd or 3rd char to join in using remote repair, so I am not only facing one well prepared enemy but several.

Should I decide to engage, the best possible outcome (assuming smart players on both sides) is that I can warp out before my ship gets destroyed. The worst possible (and also most likely) outcome is the destruction of my ship. This makes the whole loot-stealing system unfair as it is highly biased towards the attacker. While that's ok in low and 0.0, it shouldn't be the case in high-sec, that criminals are at an advantage in general.

There are several ways to fix this:

1. Usage of warp disruption in high-sec is always a criminal act, no matter why, how and who.
In this case the combat can happen, but if I feel like I am loosing, I can just warp away, and so can the other guy. This would be in line with the other Concord regulations to prevent the loss of assets and pods.

2. Assistance of a suspect is a criminal act.
In this case the attacker is still at a disadvantage, but at least the fight will be 1 vs 1. This would also solve the issue with all those unfair "duels" happening.

3. Attacking valuable player structures is a criminal act.
In this case it becomes a race between the attacker and my mobile tractor beams.

4. Looting mission specific items is a criminal act.
Kind of a band-aid fix as it lacks immersive logic, but it would at least fix the issue.


I'd prefer a combination of 1 + 2. But whatever would be the best thing, something needs to be done before this gets out of hand, again. Currently loot stealing is basically without consequence, as it would be stupid to defend yourself against it.

1. This basically executes hisec PvP, expect for suicide ganking. If you're going to fight a war with someone, you actually have to keep them from warping off.
2. Why are you entitled to a fair fight?
3. That's already true. Attacking a POS, Citadel, or POCO is an illegal act. A mobile tractor unit is <10M ISK, that's not valuable at all. It's also not CONCORD's job to protect your space junk. MTUs were designed as a conflict generator.
4. It's not CONCORD's job to protect your mission specific item either. You even admit that there's no lore reason, it's just because you're mad that people can do bad things to you.
I also find it funny how you complain that the other guy is better prepared. That problem is on your end, friend. Bad dudes brought friends? Bring your own. Or better yet, fit for PvP and give them a nasty surprise.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!

Paranoid Loyd
#5 - 2016-11-10 22:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
How to fix: get to it before them.

Bottom line: It's not yours until it's in your cargo hold.

If you don't want to play against other players, play on SISI or don't play at all.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#6 - 2016-11-10 22:58:23 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
I think the actual act of ninja looting is pretty balanced already.

Care to explain how it is balanced if I am facing 3:1 and the other one is better prepared?


You could have been closer to your lootable target when it exploded, and you were at the site first.
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#7 - 2016-11-11 00:48:05 UTC
I had an amused smirk at reading the OP asking for, basically, hisec pvp removal.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2016-11-11 00:54:09 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
I think the actual act of ninja looting is pretty balanced already.

Care to explain how it is balanced if I am facing 3:1 and the other one is better prepared?


You literally answered your own question. It's balanced because you could prepare more and bring more people or at least have people on call.

Other options involve being diplomatic with the looters. Offer the wrecks which can easily be pulled together with MTU's so long as they give you mission critical items or say a % of the loot. I know when I was in my ninja looting days it was MUCH easier to just have a mission runner use me as their salvager than it was to hunt down more mission runners.

Some can be dicks, but that's eve. There is literally nothing wrong with being more prepared and bringing more friends especially in an MMO.
Sitting Bull Lakota
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#9 - 2016-11-11 00:58:08 UTC
Your proposals would bring a decisive end to mission invasions.

Your proposals have not, however, demonstrated why mission invasions need to be removed.

I shall maintain that mission invasions need to be allowed to continue. They are one of the few places were many highsec residents are still open to conflict. MTUs were originally intended to increase mission invasion frequency.
Iain Cariaba
#10 - 2016-11-11 02:18:34 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Bottom line: It's not yours until it's in your cargo hold.

Even then, it's still not yours, not if I can take it out of your wreck. Twisted
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-11-11 02:54:17 UTC
I once had someone trying to steal the mission item from a wreck, I shot the wreck.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Sum Yun'Guy
Wong's Fish'n'Chip Co.
#12 - 2016-11-11 05:00:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sum Yun'Guy
Raw Matters wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
I think the actual act of ninja looting is pretty balanced already.

Care to explain how it is balanced if I am facing 3:1 and the other one is better prepared?


because what you're asking for is to make yourself perfectly safe in highsec without worrying about pvp, thieves, or general exposure to the eve game.

That wouldn't be balanced. That would be unbalanced. Non-consensual PVP is part of eve

you cant be facing 3:1 because when someone steals from you, its the entire eve game vs him. It doesnt get much more "balanced" than that.
Iain Cariaba
#13 - 2016-11-11 05:13:31 UTC
Sum Yun'Guy wrote:
you cant be facing 3:1 because when someone steals from you, its the entire eve game vs him. It doesnt get much more "balanced" than that.

You'd think it'd work that way. It would, if the highsec carebears would stop their bleating about removing the infinitesimal amount of risk they still have and actually plan for PvP.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#14 - 2016-11-11 05:58:53 UTC
How about:

5. Be better prepared to look after yourself and your things.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#15 - 2016-11-11 06:13:23 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
How to fix: get to it before them.

Bottom line: It's not yours until it's in your cargo hold.

If you don't want to play against other players, play on SISI or don't play at all.



m8 it's not yours until it's in your station
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#16 - 2016-11-11 07:03:54 UTC
This can be all avoided by just letting this go.

Neocomm has my mission rattlesnake at a high price. Hull and mods totaled up. Here is the most basic question I ask myself.


Is some value over the base hull of 450 ish mil mil worth maybe 2 mil in loot. Answer: No.


That and OP you have found one reason why many like to blitz. Like last night...RNG gods, man, they loved me. Mid to high level missions, crushed them easily back to back to back. No loot, just kill kill, KILL. Embrace the blitz, skip the loot by an large....may work out better. Damsel is the pita, and the viral agent one too. Most others like collect up militia people....I have small armies of these in the hangar already.

But thats me being a bitter who remembers the good ole days. I cry when I see what the loot tables drop these days. Its sad really...


Also, stop running the MTU's and such. Go old school ironman mission running and salvage after. Hint: these structures may be giving you away more easily for starters. And they are using them to bait. And you seem to be taking it or feel that urge. Don;t give into the urge.

Even my empire orca I run no combat drones on. I have pvp'd in the past, I may get the blood lust. Common sense said don't even have the ability to fight back. No drones...I don't start up kill right rotation games. I don't need people hunting me with rights to do so.

I don't need to aggress someone who hasn't shot me yet to have concord attack me either. I may not wait for high priority targets to draw first blood if I have 0.0 flashbacks. These did not pan out well for me in the past. Like on 0.0 evacs to low sec gates sucked for me. Oh crap BB, target fire and.....dammit gate gunned again.

If ganked either my orca will live to see concord save it or die. And it ends there.

Just leaves the wrecks. Which I half the time I ask if found are are they just hard up for isk. I can release ownership to make this a much simpler process for all of us (i hate all those colors...lol). If they aren't total dicks I tell them they might want to leave after BM'ing as the rats aggro shift like crazy and they may die.

Now if dicks...yeah, you can have fun with them. One vulture one time didn't know how damsel runs too well. Knew it dropped the damsel....but not what happens right before that. Followed my BS in a pos frigate to be right on top of the garden. He was talking crap in local like she is mine. Replied tank check in local...triggered AOE finish on the garden and just smiled. Next time tank for the big bang son.....



Iain Cariaba
#17 - 2016-11-11 08:06:06 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
How to fix: get to it before them.

Bottom line: It's not yours until it's in your cargo hold.

If you don't want to play against other players, play on SISI or don't play at all.



m8 it's not yours until it's in your station

It's still not yours if I can scam you out of it. Twisted
Iain Cariaba
#18 - 2016-11-11 08:13:25 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Now if dicks...yeah, you can have fun with them. One vulture one time didn't know how damsel runs too well. Knew it dropped the damsel....but not what happens right before that. Followed my BS in a pos frigate to be right on top of the garden. He was talking crap in local like she is mine. Replied tank check in local...triggered AOE finish on the garden and just smiled. Next time tank for the big bang son.....

I brick tank my Golem when I live in highsec and run missions. I welcome ninja salvagers in my sites, cause I never salvage them, but you can come in after I finish the mission. I'll give you time to bookmark the rooms before I turn it in, but if you warp in on me while I'm running a mission, I'm going to trigger every wave at once. I can tank it, they can't. Twisted

I've looted many a loot thief's wreck because they though they could tank it.
Wimzy Chent-Shi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2016-11-11 10:44:31 UTC
The issue is, what if I kill the ninja looter and the item does not drop again?
The OP is misleading but losing mission items is a nuisance indeed.
Dunno if it should be actually adressed though.

Come get some cancer @ my blog !

"This clash of opinions is like cutting onions. We are creating something here, that's productive, ...and then there is also salt." -Wimzy 2016

Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#20 - 2016-11-11 11:50:00 UTC
You can buy mission objectives on contract and it isn't expensive. No need to fail - just ignore the looters. They will get bored and pester someone else. Shooting at them simply encourages them to keep coming back - that's what they want you to do.
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