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Why Battleships?

First post
Author
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2016-11-07 10:10:09 UTC
because machariels are pretty

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#42 - 2016-11-07 10:12:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Those are not the fleet comp T3C we are talking about here.


Well fleet comp or not, it is at least one problem with Tengu and other strategic cruisers that needs to be fixed. Hell, these things may need even more nerfs even after that. Having said that, CCP has allowed these things to be massively OP for years now for whatever reason, so I won't be holding my breath for fixes anytime soon, if ever. I played under an alt over 3 years ago, the things were OP back then.
Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#43 - 2016-11-07 11:09:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Beast of Revelations
Another thing. The battlecruisers which fit battleship-sized guns have to go. Or the battleship-sized guns on them need to go, and they need to be given another role. Perhaps 8 cruiser-sized guns instead of the BS-sized ones would be fine.

This may not be the biggest factor in why battleships are less than desirable, but it's just one more factor. I say if you want 8 battleship-sized guns, you have to fly a battleship, not a battlecruiser for Pete's sake. Jeez Louise, seems like anyone could see that. It's just dumb the way it is. It's like CCP couldn't have done a better job of castrating battleships if they actually tried, which makes me wonder.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2016-11-07 11:12:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Only problem with battleships is the pilots trying to fly them.

This is the only accurate answer in this thread.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2016-11-07 11:13:46 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Another thing. The battlecruisers which fit battleship-sized guns have to go. Or the battleship-sized guns on them need to go, and they need to be given another role. Perhaps 8 cruiser-sized guns instead of the BS-sized ones would be fine.

This may not be the biggest factor in why battleships are less than desirable, but it's just one more factor. I say if you want 8 battleship-sized guns, you have to fly a battleship, not a cruiser for Pete's sake. Jeez Louise, seems like anyone could see that. It's just dumb the way it is. It's like CCP couldn't have done a better job of castrating battleships if they actually tried, which makes me wonder.


are you saying i can fit rapid heavy missiles to my orthrus??? Shocked 800mm dual autocannons to a stabber? ShockedShocked

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2016-11-07 12:14:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
Beast of Revelations wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Those are not the fleet comp T3C we are talking about here.


Well fleet comp or not, it is at least one problem with Tengu and other strategic cruisers that needs to be fixed. Hell, these things may need even more nerfs even after that. Having said that, CCP has allowed these things to be massively OP for years now for whatever reason, so I won't be holding my breath for fixes anytime soon, if ever. I played under an alt over 3 years ago, the things were OP back then.

Its not just T3C's.

Take this ship, another one I used very often as you can see by L Dopa's lossmails. Immune to small gangs without heavy nueting though not as nuet resistant as a tengu it also has some pretty insane abilities.

EHP 28k
Tank: 2000 (2500 overheated)
DPS 535 overheated
Cap Stable
Cap: 3342
Cap Peak Recharge: 78
Can Scram to 40km


[Onyx, L Dopa's Active Kitey]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Thukker Large Cap Battery
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Corelum A-Type 10MN Afterburner

True Sansha Warp Disruption Field Generator, Focused Warp Disruption Script
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile

Medium Core Defense Operational Solidifier II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Focused Warp Disruption Script x2

Without the oversized mods:

EHP 28k
Tank: 850 (1000 overheated)
DPS 535 overheated
Cap Stable
Cap: 2141
Cap Peak Recharge: 50
Can Scram to 40km

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Memphis Baas
#47 - 2016-11-07 12:38:11 UTC
Just want to point out that if we feel the need to nerf a whole bunch of other ships just to make battleships viable, then it's probably easier and better to just buff the battleships.

People like their ships, and nerfing T3C's won't make them fly battleships, the same way nerfing high-sec won't make carebears interested in low.

There are several kinds of T1 cruisers, and several classes of T2 cruisers. Compared to the multitude of cruisers (and frigates), there are way too few battleship types. EVE doesn't have gear progression, and bigger isn't better, but I feel that there should be a greater diversity of battleships, given that they're sort of the end-of-the-line as far as subcaps.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#48 - 2016-11-07 13:35:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Zakks wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:
In real life, a frigate, destroyer, cruiser, whatever, would be toast against a battleship.


IRL, battleships have become museums.


This is actually the best post in this thread. Battleships are an inbetween class, not caps, but worse than sub caps by many measures. it's only when you give them intentionally unbalanced bonuses (like pirate BSs) or special abilities (Marauders/Black ops) that they become really useful. Because if you do more than that, you simply repeat the T3D problem.

People were clamoring for 'useful destroyers' for years. We have them, now tyhe complaint is 'but what about AFs!!!".
Taurean Eltanin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2016-11-07 13:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Taurean Eltanin
I think it's worth pointing out that battleships, in or out of game, are not particularly intended to be solo ships. As such, many of their 'problems' go away when battleships support each other, or have other support ships with them.

For example, look at the classic 'getting under the guns' tactic used by frigates. It's easy enough to do that to one battleship, but much, much harder to do that when there is a second battleship 30+ km away who can track you much more easily. And you now have twice the number of drones chasing you.

Battleships in Eve are area denial ships. They have the range to project dps despite their slow speed, and the tank to hold the field. A fleet of battleships denies an important area of space (such as a gate, pos, or other key point) to anyone not bringing their own battleships (or capitals). They excel in fights where the location of the fight is inflexible.

If you want to fight running battles, or roam space looking for fights, you need smaller, faster ships. I'm fairly certain that's working as intended.

If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.

Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#50 - 2016-11-07 13:59:12 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:

People like their ships, and nerfing T3C's won't make them fly battleships, the same way nerfing high-sec won't make carebears interested in low.


I don't think the point is, or should be, "make people fly battleships." The point is, and should be, "correct whatever problems are there in order to make battleships what they rightfully should be."

Having said that, if it matters, I have full and utmost faith that if that is done, there will be plenty of people flying battleships. I'm sure there are more people in this game wanting to fly battleships than anything else.

Quote:
There are several kinds of T1 cruisers, and several classes of T2 cruisers. Compared to the multitude of cruisers (and frigates), there are way too few battleship types... I feel that there should be a greater diversity of battleships, given that they're sort of the end-of-the-line as far as subcaps.


I'm sure you are right, but I believe that is a separate, different sort of problem. I believe the main problem is simply that battleships are overnerfed, underpowered, unloved, neglected, whatever you want to call it. In other words, the sorry state of battleships isn't due to lack of diversity, it's just due to them being overnerfed, underpowered, whatever. Adding diversity won't magically solve the problem if the diversity that is added has the same issues as the current stock of battleships.

Quote:
EVE doesn't have gear progression, and bigger isn't better....


I keep hearing this. I don't agree with how people use the logic, or use it to justify the current state of affairs. Just because "EVE doesn't have gear progression" doesn't mean battleships must suck and cruisers must be top dog. And just because "bigger isn't better" doesn't mean smaller should be better either.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2016-11-07 14:01:09 UTC
Taurean Eltanin wrote:

Battleships is Eve are area denial ships. They have the range to project dps despite their slow speed, and the tank to hold the field. A fleet of battleships denies an important area of space (such as a gate, pos, or other key point) to anyone not bringing their own battleships (or capitals). They excel in fights where the location of the fight is inflexible.

If you want to fight running battles, or roam space looking for fights, you need smaller, faster ships. I'm fairly certain that's working as intended.


Perfectly well said. I have Dual Rep Rapid Heavy Typhoons that I pull out every time the "Kitey Bullshit" shows up in my neighborhood. It doesn't always get kills, but it's tough and can match range with the kiters and forces them to withdraw, and it's funny to see how they react when they try to pull our tacklers off only to be confronted with a MJDing BS. WHOOPS, you're in range again, so sorry lol.

Some people who complain about battleships simply don't like the limits on where and how they can be used, but if you make Battleships a thing for multiple situations (or make multiple types of BSs to cover every situation), it would simply re-open the pandora's box CCP closed a decade ago.
Wanda Fayne
#52 - 2016-11-07 14:42:12 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Another thing. The battlecruisers which fit battleship-sized guns have to go. Or the battleship-sized guns on them need to go, and they need to be given another role. Perhaps 8 cruiser-sized guns instead of the BS-sized ones would be fine.

This may not be the biggest factor in why battleships are less than desirable, but it's just one more factor. I say if you want 8 battleship-sized guns, you have to fly a battleship, not a battlecruiser for Pete's sake. Jeez Louise, seems like anyone could see that. It's just dumb the way it is. It's like CCP couldn't have done a better job of castrating battleships if they actually tried, which makes me wonder.


Keep your mitts off my Battlecruisers, they are not in too bad of shape.
Your ideas would require so much after-the-fact fixes to everything else in the gameUgh

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#53 - 2016-11-07 14:48:02 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:

Your ideas would require so much after-the-fact fixes to everything else in the gameUgh


I doubt it, but if so, who cares? If it needs fixing, it needs fixing, and if it is important to do, it is important to do.

For me, the battleship issue is an intolerable situation. I know others who feel the same way. I've been able to train battleships for a long time, and have the skill books injected. I also have many support skills trained. But I have refused to train them. To me they are broken, and it simply isn't worth it. I'd like to see the issue fixed.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2016-11-07 15:01:06 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:

Your ideas would require so much after-the-fact fixes to everything else in the gameUgh


I doubt it, but if so, who cares? If it needs fixing, it needs fixing, and if it is important to do, it is important to do.

For me, the battleship issue is an intolerable situation. I know others who feel the same way. I've been able to train battleships for a long time, and have the skill books injected. I also have many support skills trained. But I have refused to train them. To me they are broken, and it simply isn't worth it. I'd like to see the issue fixed.


So you've formed balance opinions about a class of ships yo have never even flown, and are arguing with people who have?

That's...I don't even know what to call that.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2016-11-07 15:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
Taurean Eltanin wrote:
I think it's worth pointing out that battleships, in or out of game, are not particularly intended to be solo ships. As such, many of their 'problems' go away when battleships support each other, or have other support ships with them.

For example, look at the classic 'getting under the guns' tactic used by frigates. It's easy enough to do that to one battleship, but much, much harder to do that when there is a second battleship 30+ km away who can track you much more easily. And you now have twice the number of drones chasing you.

Battleships in Eve are area denial ships. They have the range to project dps despite their slow speed, and the tank to hold the field. A fleet of battleships denies an important area of space (such as a gate, pos, or other key point) to anyone not bringing their own battleships (or capitals). They excel in fights where the location of the fight is inflexible.

If you want to fight running battles, or roam space looking for fights, you need smaller, faster ships. I'm fairly certain that's working as intended.

This is actually not true. It sounds good but its false. A good example which completely debunks this is the recent fleet of 80ish Svipuls that slaughtered PL's fleet of 120 Mach's.

Lets look at your post a bit -

Battleships are not particularly intended to be solo - true or false? False initially, true after about 2004 or 2005. What we're missing here though is a bit of perspective. Interceptors were never intended to be used solo. Nor were recons. Nor were dreadnaughts or carriers. You could say that none of the ships post 2004-5 were intended to be used solo but almost all are or can be except the battleship which will die extremely quickly due to its terrible mobility and inability to disengage (apart from ships like the Mach and to a lesser extent Typhoon and Tempest).


In terms of your example you suggest to defeat a single frigate in a battleship due to it outrunning your tracking and unbonused drones you need to have an extra battleship... I think I'll leave that one right there as a great example of how terrible battleships are then.

Battleships are not area of denial ships. Ships that are mobile, apply dps quickly and which are difficult to catch are area of denial ships. A Svipul fleet, a hurricane fleet, a cerb fleet are much more effective area of denial ships than a battleship, especially now in the Fozziesov era.

In short battleships don't have a role that cannot be performed by another ship as well or better. There are a few battleships that can also perform well however that's not because of a particular battleship ability its because they have certain non-battleship abilties (speed, nuets, drones bonuses, utility highs not being required for battleship sized weaponry).

In short the main reason you will find battleships in fleets is because of 1) t1 newb friendly and insurance 2) some faction ships like Machs don't suffer as badly from being a battleship because they have bonuses.

Frankly as things stand, a carrier with a networked sensor array or a HAW Dread are better battleships than battleships are. They can kill subcaps much better than battleships can in most cases. The last time I orbited a battleship with an AB Arazu at 30km it couldn't hit me. The last time I orbited a dread at 30km in an AB Lachesis it killed me in 2 volleys. Enuff said.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2016-11-07 15:34:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:

Your ideas would require so much after-the-fact fixes to everything else in the gameUgh


I doubt it, but if so, who cares? If it needs fixing, it needs fixing, and if it is important to do, it is important to do.

For me, the battleship issue is an intolerable situation. I know others who feel the same way. I've been able to train battleships for a long time, and have the skill books injected. I also have many support skills trained. But I have refused to train them. To me they are broken, and it simply isn't worth it. I'd like to see the issue fixed.


So you've formed balance opinions about a class of ships yo have never even flown, and are arguing with people who have?

That's...I don't even know what to call that.


what a time to be alive

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2016-11-07 15:36:08 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Another thing. The battlecruisers which fit battleship-sized guns have to go. Or the battleship-sized guns on them need to go, and they need to be given another role. Perhaps 8 cruiser-sized guns instead of the BS-sized ones would be fine.

This may not be the biggest factor in why battleships are less than desirable, but it's just one more factor. I say if you want 8 battleship-sized guns, you have to fly a battleship, not a cruiser for Pete's sake. Jeez Louise, seems like anyone could see that. It's just dumb the way it is. It's like CCP couldn't have done a better job of castrating battleships if they actually tried, which makes me wonder.


are you saying i can fit rapid heavy missiles to my orthrus??? Shocked 800mm dual autocannons to a stabber? ShockedShocked

learn 2 read mate..... What?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2016-11-07 15:41:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
March rabbit wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Another thing. The battlecruisers which fit battleship-sized guns have to go. Or the battleship-sized guns on them need to go, and they need to be given another role. Perhaps 8 cruiser-sized guns instead of the BS-sized ones would be fine.

This may not be the biggest factor in why battleships are less than desirable, but it's just one more factor. I say if you want 8 battleship-sized guns, you have to fly a battleship, not a cruiser for Pete's sake. Jeez Louise, seems like anyone could see that. It's just dumb the way it is. It's like CCP couldn't have done a better job of castrating battleships if they actually tried, which makes me wonder.


are you saying i can fit rapid heavy missiles to my orthrus??? Shocked 800mm dual autocannons to a stabber? ShockedShocked

learn 2 read mate..... What?


ill highlight because i may have read it slightly wrong, but he wrote it wrong too Big smile but i can fit 800mm autocannons to a hurricane?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#59 - 2016-11-07 15:56:15 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
So you've formed balance opinions about a class of ships yo have never even flown, and are arguing with people who have?

That's...I don't even know what to call that.

Now you know what it's like for me when people post their opinions on how to "fix" war declarations!
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2016-11-07 16:10:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:

Your ideas would require so much after-the-fact fixes to everything else in the gameUgh


I doubt it, but if so, who cares? If it needs fixing, it needs fixing, and if it is important to do, it is important to do.

For me, the battleship issue is an intolerable situation. I know others who feel the same way. I've been able to train battleships for a long time, and have the skill books injected. I also have many support skills trained. But I have refused to train them. To me they are broken, and it simply isn't worth it. I'd like to see the issue fixed.


So you've formed balance opinions about a class of ships yo have never even flown, and are arguing with people who have?

That's...I don't even know what to call that.

Jennversation?

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg