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Why Battleships?

First post
Author
Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#1 - 2016-11-06 15:32:19 UTC
This is an honest question, because I truly don't know the answer. I'm not an expert at this game.

I know why you'd fly a battleship to run a level 4 mission. It's because there's gonna be a ton of other ships there, including battleships, and battleships are good vs. other battleships, and you need a big tank.

But why a battleship in general? They seem to suck. They have a hard time hitting anything but other battleships. I don't know why you'd PvP in one (and perhaps people don't), and why would you put them in fleets? Seems like a fleet of battleships would have a hard, if not impossible time, against a bunch of cruisers and frigs.

This is one place where I think CCP screwed the pooch. In real life, a frigate, destroyer, cruiser, whatever, would be toast against a battleship. But at any rate, tell me why these things are used, if indeed they are.

(Oh, not sure if it would make a difference in your answer, but ignore tier 2, tier 3, navy issue, pirate, etc)
Cara Forelli
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#2 - 2016-11-06 15:36:48 UTC
They make me feel like a real tough guy.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Paranoid Loyd
#3 - 2016-11-06 15:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Yep, it's how you separate the wheat from the chaff

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#4 - 2016-11-06 15:41:56 UTC
Battleships, at least some of them, are actually very good in a stand up fight.

The biggest problems with them in my experience is that they're enormously slow, both on the field and strategically, you can't get them anywhere they need to be in an expeditious fashion for love nor money. Capitals warp faster.

And the ******* scan resolution holy ****, they can't lock targets to save their lives.
Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#5 - 2016-11-06 15:42:39 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
They make me feel like a real tough guy.


Granted, how the thing makes you feel when you fly it is a valid gameplay reason to fly it. But if you want to win a PvP (you vs. another ship), or win a small engagement (a couple of ships vs. a couple of ships) or win a large engagement (big fleet vs. big fleet), is there any particular reason to fly one, and if so, why?
Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#6 - 2016-11-06 15:44:38 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Yep, it's how you separate the wheat from the chaff


If you really want to do that, support my proposals in the other thread :)
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#7 - 2016-11-06 15:56:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
lol... since the best answers have been given already...


Battleships on their own are not that good. There are some exceptions (both in terms of the ship itself and how people use them)... but in general, battleships excel in two ways:

- teaming up with other battleships to create a "wrecking ball" of destruction.
- holding the field.

But, as others have said, battleships are slow. very slow.

This means that battleships excel pretty much at one thing:

- structure bashing/defending

Mind you, capitals can do this well too (and in some ways, better)... unless you know that there is a larger 3rd party of capital forces in the area and want to avoid giving them a reason to deploy on you.
Or we are talking about high-sec (where capitals cannot be).


10 battleships supported by 3 Logi ships is a force to be reckoned with.
Keno Skir
#8 - 2016-11-06 16:31:26 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
But why a battleship in general? They seem to suck. They have a hard time hitting anything but other battleships. I don't know why you'd PvP in one (and perhaps people don't), and why would you put them in fleets? Seems like a fleet of battleships would have a hard, if not impossible time, against a bunch of cruisers and frigs.


No you just have to choose the right BS and fit it properly that's all. Coming from a PvE perspective i wouldn't expect you to understand that battleships can hit frigates etc, having had the opposite theory stuffed down your throat by older PvE'rs..

The real point is that PvE fit BS can't hit anything smaller than a BS unless it has great range. A PvP fit BS designed to attack an array of target sizes can be a big problem for the vast majority of ships solo or otherwise (Geddon to name one).

People PvP solo in BS all the time, it's just you have to remember to fit specifically for the variance instead of just rolling a standard tank/gank BS into a fight with a gang of frigates.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#9 - 2016-11-06 17:00:06 UTC
Only problem with battleships is the pilots trying to fly them.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Duckzer Mining Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
#10 - 2016-11-06 17:11:39 UTC
History is hard for some people. Most people can only see things from their current perspective even if that perspective is limited in time and space. If you are new then your perspective is limited to the time you have spent in the game and this will cause your confusion on many things. History in this case isnt your friend. Make it your friend.

Learn the history of ship progression from the beginning to now. Not only what was changed but also why it was changed. History is a great thing to learn so one doesnt repeat history.Big smile

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

virm pasuul
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2016-11-06 17:28:22 UTC
Battleships are large, slow, have tank and do lots of damage when they hit.

Solo up close to a small target they can't hit at all.
What happens if say you have another pilot in a smaller ship working with you and they reduce the speed of the small target, increase it;s signature, and stop it getting away? What happens then?

What the difference between small scale pvp and large scale pvp?
what's the difference between running pve missions in high sec and pvp in low/null?

Eve is a game about using the tools available to adapt to the situation.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#12 - 2016-11-06 17:41:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
baltec1 wrote:
Only problem with battleships is the pilots trying to fly them.


This.


I know a Golem isn't a battleship, but in L4s, my Golem takes care of the smaller stuff quite easily. I could deploy drones, but I don't bother with the hassel. Grappler, couple of TPs, and MGC, takes care of things quicker than the drones can. ( have very good drones skills.)

With the Golem as compared to the turret BSs, I don't have to worry about range, and doesn't matter how close they get. The grappler almost stops them cold.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.

Valkin Mordirc
#13 - 2016-11-06 18:31:41 UTC
Spider Tanked Geddon's and Domi's are great for POS bashing when a capitals are out of the option. Like Highsec. Also Battleships do very well once they have a supporting wing behind them to help them out. The Geddon's neut bonus alone makes it a wonderful ship to have in a fleet comp alone.
#DeleteTheWeak
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#14 - 2016-11-06 18:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bumblefck
Quote:
This is one place where I think CCP screwed the pooch




People who don't fly battleships are pussies

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Nakovi Kitsune
New Eden People's Front
#15 - 2016-11-06 19:05:20 UTC
A battleship fit properly has no trouble hitting a cruiser and doesn't care much about frigates. Especially in fights that you know are going to turn into a no-distance knife fight, when you're webbed and scrammed to bejesus and back, the battleship does more dps than smaller ships (usually) and has more tank.

In wormholes, if you don't have the manpower to fly 30 T3s around, vindis and bhaalgorns are great force multipliers if you pick the right fight conditions.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#16 - 2016-11-06 21:05:34 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
This is an honest question, because I truly don't know the answer. I'm not an expert at this game.

I know why you'd fly a battleship to run a level 4 mission. It's because there's gonna be a ton of other ships there, including battleships, and battleships are good vs. other battleships, and you need a big tank.

But why a battleship in general? They seem to suck. They have a hard time hitting anything but other battleships. I don't know why you'd PvP in one (and perhaps people don't), and why would you put them in fleets? Seems like a fleet of battleships would have a hard, if not impossible time, against a bunch of cruisers and frigs.

This is one place where I think CCP screwed the pooch. In real life, a frigate, destroyer, cruiser, whatever, would be toast against a battleship. But at any rate, tell me why these things are used, if indeed they are.

(Oh, not sure if it would make a difference in your answer, but ignore tier 2, tier 3, navy issue, pirate, etc)


I think your problem is a lack of historical context. In the beginning there were no Battleships. Then CCP introduced them, and from their came the term "solopwnmobile". There was no reason to use anything else.

So years of changes later there is a reason to fly other ships, while battleships are still powerful in the hands of competent pilots . Still, their are selfish people who beg CCP to walk back the balance moves to compensate for their lack of skill using BSs. CCP has rightfully so far resisted, because ethey know that any change that makes battleships useful to less competent pilots makes smaller ships less useful (in the same way t3ds make AFs useless).



Battleships are fine, they are the way they are to give room for other ships to be used.
Zakks
CSR NAVY
Citizen's Star Republic
#17 - 2016-11-06 21:11:51 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
In real life, a frigate, destroyer, cruiser, whatever, would be toast against a battleship.


IRL, battleships have become museums.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#18 - 2016-11-06 21:39:11 UTC
Right now, BS fleets have a significant problem. Namely bombers.

A relatively cheap fleet, which can deal large amounts of damage to a fleet consisting of BS. There are counters, but they're very specialist fit.

Now, some people will say that people don't fly bomber fleets now. In part, that's because people don't fly BS fleets. If the BS fleets returned, the bomber fleets would. They're close to a hard counter.

Now, that's going to (probably. When CCP Larrikin gets the code into a performant position) be fixed with the release of what's currently going by the name of D.I.C.K.S. A destroyer only module, which uses defender missiles to blow up bombs.

Have a few destroyers with your fleet, and you defang a bomber only fleet.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#19 - 2016-11-06 22:06:56 UTC
If CCP could be accused of ever making a mistake with battleships in general, it's that we got so used to them being able to do some of the things they shouldn't have been able to do just as well and let it stay that way for so long. People keep bringing up, for instance, the warp mechanics changes and calling it the big battleship nerf when in reality it's how it should have always been. Battleships are suppose to be bad at maneuver warfare, but able to make up for it with the ability to bring more killing power and stay on the battlefield longer. It's a cost of using them we're not so used to so it makes it seem somewhat unfairly lopsided when it's actually not. So far, battleships in general seem to be fine to me, though I do see a lot of people complaining about their lack of speed now both on and in between battlefields, which is the way it's supposed to be.

The very same thing was said with the Dire Wolf in MWO when PGI added them for example. They can't maneuver for ****, are as slow as an Atlas, have no jump jets (minus the S variant), and have poor visibility which encourages tunnel visioning...easy pickings for a competent pack of lights if one ever gets caught out in the open all by itself, no matter how good the pilot is with the weapons he/she dropped with. Put anything that's not paying attention within 50-360 meters in front of it and have a lance of support and ECM to screen it for a few seconds so it's left without interruptions or fear of being flanked, and it becomes a murderously unstoppable monster. Send it off by itself to race off to a capture point, out of the fight and horribly alone, and it becomes a free kill for lights and one less DPS boat when you really need. In most fights, that's almost a guaranteed loss for the match, too. Good players recognized this inherent set of vulnerabilities and, like any other assault mech, players in anything not assault tend to huge close to them both to protect them and ensure they are permitted to steamroll the field unabated. The one's piloting assaults learned to stay close to that ECM and support and not to "ridge" unless a coordinated push is called and to never "squirrel" unless it's the end of the fight and you're mopping up the last hostile. You know...good teamwork.

The only difference is that assaults in MWO (and, technically, every BattleTech title to date) have always had those flaws since the first assault class mechs hit the MWO server. Some of the ones battleships deal with in Eve Online are only fairly recent shifts from nonexistent to now being actual issues. Once players who haven't already get used to that, they will find that battleships are still dangerously powerful instruments of warfare just the same as they have always been, but now deserve a little more respect for where they are weak and meant to be weak.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

TackyTachy1
Doomheim
#20 - 2016-11-06 22:47:58 UTC
I've never really mastered PvP in a multi-box environment, I guess 'cause I can't really manage multiple ships in a firefight. But I had this cunning plan to pair a Domi with a tackle fitted Rapier but then something went wrong and I got to be not one but two frozen corpses in space. Still trying to figure out what the hell happened but I will attempt this trick again, soon as can save up enough for another Domi. But the cunning plan was a cunning plan right up to the point where it ceased to be a cunning plan.

Forum Rep for a bunch of characters, couple corps and one seriously Lost In Space multiboxer.

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