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Crime & Punishment

 
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So long, and thanks for all the isk

First post
Author
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#281 - 2016-09-22 00:24:36 UTC
I have been thinking of going to null since I have never lived there. Still mulling it over...
Lord Razpataz
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#282 - 2016-10-28 20:29:20 UTC
I've been on Slack harassing the people in the #CSM channel for a while now, trying to figure out what solutions would be accepted by the almighty eve-famous people. After fighting with the local trolls and know-it-alls for a while....
This is what I've come up with:

With whatchlist removed back in March, there's been some playstyles that benefited by the change, but it hit some small community's in eve hard.
I want to suggest a few small changes that imho will fix a lot of the problems and still make it work for everyone without being OP.

First allowing watchlist to work IF a wardec was active.
This will help defenders have a tool to see if their aggressors is online or not, and in effect if it’s safe to undock.
It will also give back the possibility to be able to do "focused wars" and limit the amount of wardecs needed.

Then introduce a new structure for corp and alliances, a defensive one*.
This would be a rather expensive structure you have to anchor in space, visible on scan and not be anchored within 1000km of anything.
The structure would have the same ehp and reinforce timers as a poco. Its area of effect would cover just the system it’s anchored in and online it would take 24h.
Having this structure anchored and online while at war will "shield" you from being visible on watchlist and locates within its area of effect.

* Alternatively have different sizes of defensive structure. Small for system protection, medium include surrounding systems and large for constellations that would only be able to anchored in 0.0 systems. The structures can't be anchored within another structures area of effect. (cant overlap)

And finally make locators work on people in wh's and give online status when delivering the location. This will give a minimum 10 minute delay on the online status.

With these suggested changes in place it would open up the possibility to hunt larger groups in highsec and give Mercs and wardeccers an option to hunt rather than being forced to use not commonly known workarounds or hubcamp/gatecamp tactics hoping the target comes to them. And also give defender side a tool to keep safe and be able to play if no aggressors is online. To solve WL being to overpowered the structure would work as a counter and opening up new objectives and a "reason to fight" other than isk.

What do you guys in C&P think?

Btw... Devils are starting up mercenary services again November 1th, still in highsec and relying on workarounds for now
Our old thread should pop up as soon as I can get a hold of a friendly ISD willing to unlock it.
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#283 - 2016-10-29 10:03:25 UTC
Is this where I offer my real world capabilities of MILINT and TACOPS?

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#284 - 2016-10-29 15:48:31 UTC
Interesting ideas, I support this. Hopefully something will be done by CCP. Eventually.

I am glad to see you come back, good luck guys.

o7
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#285 - 2016-10-30 02:54:32 UTC
I would come back to do solo highsec wardecs if you get that going Raz.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#286 - 2016-10-30 10:10:20 UTC
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Words

Literally the only good "war related structures" post ever made.

I don't think your suggested changes to locator agents go far enough, though. Locator agents are so weak in terms of usefulness right now for any purpose, not just wars (I run locators on people I'm not actually at war with for other reasons) that they could use improvement in terms of return time and repeat time.

I also think that maybe access to them being dependent on agent standing might not be the right way for them to work. Perhaps it would be better if everyone could use any locator agent at some inflated cost and cost be decreased through agent standing.
Lord Razpataz
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#287 - 2016-10-30 10:35:35 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Words

Literally the only good "war related structures" post ever made.

I don't think your suggested changes to locator agents go far enough, though. Locator agents are so weak in terms of usefulness right now for any purpose, not just wars (I run locators on people I'm not actually at war with for other reasons) that they could use improvement in terms of return time and repeat time.

I also think that maybe access to them being dependent on agent standing might not be the right way for them to work. Perhaps it would be better if everyone could use any locator agent at some inflated cost and cost be decreased through agent standing.

Thx Vimsy

Yeah, I was trying to be moderate.. I've tried suggestions to improve locators, but the know-it-alls seem to think that locators are many and easy accessible without any clue how the mechanic works. And doing something to improve it would make it OP. What?
DSpite Culhach
#288 - 2016-10-31 04:29:33 UTC
I've never liked the idea that one player could instantly know that another player had just come online in his own room - or worse, warp back into space after a logoff - from the other side of the galaxy.

Sorry, but that is to me just as nonsensical as the ability to basically "ping" space with a DSCAN. It's the equivalent of sitting in orbit around the moon, and instantly getting a radar image of everything all way to Uranus, instantly, as in the "radar" working faster then light speed, faster then warp speed.

On that note, those things needs to be possible in a mechanics functioning way to simply make the game "work as intended", so I would be in favor of the OP to have additional mechanics put in, ones that make "more game sense", to allow hunting of targets.

It's already been suggested that Locator Agents could be kept on active duty so that they could report back by themselves, much like a real agent would do, so maybe it should also be possible to similar things on stations as tripwires that go off when a target docks up/undocks.

After all, the Jump Gates and stations know who has passed through, as the ships would have to give an ID to use them, so why not use those mechanics instead? A player that bribes or pays various agents in systems should be basically setting up an intelligence network of sorts. It should not be anywhere as powerful as one based purely on actual players, but it should still be usable enough to facilitate the OP type of game play.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.

Princess Bride
SharkNado
#289 - 2016-11-03 22:16:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Bride
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Normal highsec Mercenary work is now sitting in hubs and pipes and decking everything that moves within eye-shot.

We will not ,
Therefore we are no longer Mercenary's.


While I sympathize with the mercenary community's irritation at losing the watch list, reading this made me raise an eyebrow. So what if most merc corps are trade hub camping? How does that in any way force you to do the same, or quit? That's a false dilemma, especially in a sandbox game.

As people suggested, you could incorporate infiltration into the target corporation as part of your contract. "That's too much effort" is not a viable excuse. All that means is that you are used to having this information spoon fed to you and now feel entitled to it. Yes, CCP took away one of your tools. Find a work-around. That's the Eve way.

For example, often times people who want to target a corporation have a character in that corporation. You could give preference to clients with an alt inside the target. If they don't have an insider, your corp could try to get an unaffiliated alt into the corp. Failing that, you could pass on the contract. Some of your corp members might even get good at infiltration if it becomes a routine procedure.

Regardless of the viability of these ideas, saying "most mercs hub camp, so merc work is now hub camping, so we are no longer mercs" is a cop-out.

I'm glad to see you've decided to not just walk away. And don't hinge your hopes on CCP fixing this problem for your small community. You say "workarounds" like it's a bad thing. Eve is ALL about the workarounds, especially when it comes to your little corner getting nerfed. You should know that by now.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/

Lord Razpataz
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#290 - 2016-11-03 22:31:20 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Normal highsec Mercenary work is now sitting in hubs and pipes and decking everything that moves within eye-shot.

We will not ,
Therefore we are no longer Mercenary's.


While I sympathize with the mercenary community's irritation at losing the watch list, reading this made me raise an eyebrow. So what if most merc corps are trade hub camping? How does that in any way force you to do the same, or quit? That's a false dilemma, especially in a sandbox game.

As people suggested, you could incorporate infiltration into the target corporation as part of your contract. "That's too much effort" is not a viable excuse. All that means is that you are used to having this information spoon fed to you and now feel entitled to it. Yes, CCP took away one of your tools. Find a work-around. That's the Eve way.

For example, often times people who want to target a corporation have a character in that corporation. You could give preference to clients with an alt inside the target. If they don't have an insider, your corp could try to get an unaffiliated alt into the corp. Failing that, you could pass on the contract. Some of your corp members might even get good at infiltration if it becomes a routine procedure.

Regardless of the viability of these ideas, saying "most mercs hub camp, so merc work is now hub camping, so we are no longer mercs" is a cop-out.

I'm glad to see you've decided to not just walk away. And don't hinge your hopes on CCP fixing this problem for your small community. You say "workarounds" like it's a bad thing. Eve is ALL about the workarounds, especially when it comes to your little corner getting nerfed. You should know that by now.


I dont know how many times I've explained that infiltrating is not a solution... How can you put an alt in a corp, if its not recruiting? We have made it work with workarounds, but imho unfair for the targets that dont know about it.

Bah.. I'm not gonna repeat myself over and over..
Thanks for the bump.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
Transgress
#291 - 2016-11-03 22:48:26 UTC
also would like to point out , those were my words, not Raz's.
Wanda Fayne
#292 - 2016-11-03 23:19:47 UTC
Locator agents could work within limits. Many have been previously mentioned but still remain the most viable fixes imho.

Examples
Long cool-downs between locates
Regional effectiveness (the old game of "hotter/colder") where you get a general idea of where a target is/was.
Online/offline status only
Delayed status notifications
Standings requirements for agents
Fee requirements for agents
Limits on locates of character/corp
Notification to target that they have been located via agent
Counter-bribery to locate agents to give false information

The idea I think was to get rid of the instant passive notifications of the watchlist. Not kill active locating completely.

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#293 - 2016-11-03 23:22:56 UTC
Lord Razpataz wrote:


I dont know how many times I've explained that infiltrating is not a solution... How can you put an alt in a corp, if its not recruiting? We have made it work with workarounds, but imho unfair for the targets that dont know about it.

Bah.. I'm not gonna repeat myself over and over..
Thanks for the bump.


Have you thought about simply not taking contracts unless the target is recruiting OR the client has an alt in the corp already? If you advertised this policy, people would know to keep/put an alt in their target corp if it's not recruiting or don't bother asking. You can theorize that it would reduce your client list to something untenable, but until you try it you won't know for sure.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
Transgress
#294 - 2016-11-03 23:46:01 UTC
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#295 - 2016-11-04 00:01:02 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Normal highsec Mercenary work is now sitting in hubs and pipes and decking everything that moves within eye-shot.

We will not ,
Therefore we are no longer Mercenary's.


While I sympathize with the mercenary community's irritation at losing the watch list, reading this made me raise an eyebrow. So what if most merc corps are trade hub camping? How does that in any way force you to do the same, or quit? That's a false dilemma, especially in a sandbox game.

As people suggested, you could incorporate infiltration into the target corporation as part of your contract. "That's too much effort" is not a viable excuse. All that means is that you are used to having this information spoon fed to you and now feel entitled to it. Yes, CCP took away one of your tools. Find a work-around. That's the Eve way.

For example, often times people who want to target a corporation have a character in that corporation. You could give preference to clients with an alt inside the target. If they don't have an insider, your corp could try to get an unaffiliated alt into the corp. Failing that, you could pass on the contract. Some of your corp members might even get good at infiltration if it becomes a routine procedure.

Regardless of the viability of these ideas, saying "most mercs hub camp, so merc work is now hub camping, so we are no longer mercs" is a cop-out.

I'm glad to see you've decided to not just walk away. And don't hinge your hopes on CCP fixing this problem for your small community. You say "workarounds" like it's a bad thing. Eve is ALL about the workarounds, especially when it comes to your little corner getting nerfed. You should know that by now.

And with this reply, it is hillariously obvious that you have not tried the highsec mercenary wars after they got rid of the watch list (RIP buddy...I will miss you so). The best analogy I can come up with is trying hit a cat with a sniper rifle from a mile away while the cat is in a mosh pit at a Pantera concert...oh wait, is the cat even there? Who knows...

They removed it for protecting the babies who fly captial ships, not for focused highsec wardecs...but that is who took the hardest hit. Now I can understand the removal of it but what us people who relied on it prevented all these blanket wardecs that you see now (and Ralph called it before it happened) with the watch list and CCP did not compensate the loss with adjusting the locater agents (best place to do it).

Trying to hunt ghosts in this game isn't very fun. I would gladly pay 10x the locater agent fee if he/she told me the person was online or not so my time isn't wasted. But until then, it is L4 mission time.

Please do not comment on any thread that you have no clue what you are talking about...thanks. Roll
Salvos Rhoska
#296 - 2016-12-01 11:07:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Redirected from GD out of curiosity.

Sad to hear a legit profession and content area of the game is suffering and reduced to the result of trade hub camping and mass WDing. (Which is essentially mere piracy, not mercenary work).

I dont have any options to suggest or the knowhow to evaluate suggestions, but the issue seems real enough.

Mercs fulfill the three core qualities in my PVP vs PVE diagram in my sig, and introduce PVP outwards to affect all the peripheral PVE activities in fulfillment of their contracts.

As basically "Corps for Hire", they should be considered central content creators that embody aggressive capitalist values of EVE, especially for non-combat corps to hire to explode/impair the operations of their competing corps when they dont have the expertise/firepower to do so themselves, to protect their own operations, or ofc just for good old settling of vendettas.

GL, hopefully CCP will consider this in future.

(PS: Yes im posting from relative safety of NPC corp, which can be considered ironic.)
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
Transgress
#297 - 2016-12-01 11:22:37 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Redirected from GD out of curiosity.

Sad to hear a legit profession and content area of the game is suffering and reduced to the result of trade hub camping and mass WDing.

I dont have any options to suggest or the knowhow to evaluate suggestions, but the issue seems real enough.

GL, hopefully CCP will consider this in future.

(Mercs fulfill the three core qualities in my PVP vs PVE diagram in my sig, and extend outwards to affect all the peripheral PVE activities)

Here's two praposals made to help facilitate a healthier empire war scene
Mine and Raz's.
Mine is a stop gap , Raz's is a more developed idea ,
Salvos Rhoska
#298 - 2016-12-01 11:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

Here's two praposals made to help facilitate a healthier empire war scene
Mine and Raz's.
Mine is a stop gap , Raz's is a more developed idea ,


Liked em both and updated my previous post to more specifically articulate why Merc Corps should get more consideration from CCP as content providers.

Ill update the diagram in my sig to specifically include/represent Mercs central role.

If I ever have need of Merc services or come across someone who does, Ill be sure to prefer and recommend yours first.

If there is anything else I can do to help, Ill be glad to as I see this issue as worthy.

GL in your crusade and efforts to bring CCPs attention to this.
o7
Stevn Thomas
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#299 - 2016-12-01 15:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Stevn Thomas
What I do not get is why the heck this is actualy a problem? To me it is a very easy problem to solve, just develop the EvE version of this....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dupuy-de-Lome-photo10.jpg

Seriously take any basic cargo hauler, let it mount 3 high slots for sensor ARAYS dedicated to ELINT, system, region, long range, mids for super computers for tracking down specific individuals intel and lows for data collection on single corps per slot via bulk intel analysis. Heck rig it so that it can track down both PVP stuff and PvE stuff so everyone has a reason to use it.

Why would this work? Simple. You cant do anything in game without telling the servers about it.

Undock or jump through a gate? boom aerospace traffic control starts yapping about it around the station. Same with docking.
Probing? Your spaming scan signals.
Pop a rat or an NPC ship Concord gets the message and pays you, pirates send coms about it, and the NPC faction starts trying to find out what happened to there ships.
Spam ingame private channels with kinky Cyber sex? Ew but Intell is Ammo.
Camp out in a station spaming trade orders? That's even more intell ranging from the pizza guy complaining your a lousy tipper to Housekeeping complaining about you stacking pizza boxes in the janitors storage to the local stations, ah, persons of compensated affections comenting on size....

Heck make a droppable intel satelight that passively collects data that will self destruct after 1 - 4 days so you know not to waste time war decking that guy in Japan that's always in bed when you are online.

Seriously I see no reason CCP Has not already done this..... oh. Oh right, this is CCP. The company that keeps forgetting that it makes a game about actual Spaceships in space.
Stevn Thomas
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#300 - 2016-12-01 15:44:21 UTC
And note I am fully aware that my "simple solution" could easily take a year or more of coding to create a working prototype.