These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Nerfing Caldari?

First post
Author
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#181 - 2012-01-18 15:47:52 UTC
I don't see how changing some stats in severely overpowered ship is a nerf.

Agent quality removal was a huge nerf to low-sec, that's right. Fixing a drake is merely a fix. CCP, please do it ASAP! The whole game is fubar cause of this crap.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Melangell
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2012-01-18 15:52:48 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
It is a huge nerf for a great many that actually use them. The newer players as their first real ship. For the same players that decide THAT is the ship they are going to fly well.

I and many others see that as a nerf. A bit more HAM or HM range is meaningless when your drake melts.


I'm beginning to the get the impression that you have focused *all* your training on one single ship. (well that and that you seem to be very angry about imaginary conspiracies)

In all seriousness - the changes proposed do not sound like it will be the end of the Drake - it may be more like the other BCs where you have to think about your tank while flying it.

I've got a lot of SP in the hurricane and I have to *fly* it to make sure it stays alive - and you know what? I prefer flying that to the drake with it's enormous tank precisely because of that.

Combined with a bit more damage - you might even find that level 4's become a sufficient challenge to be actually fun (or I might find that they become interesting for PvP)



Alara IonStorm
#183 - 2012-01-18 15:57:08 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Please keep in mind these notes date back from December, and as such some points may have evolved as we are gathering more data with time.


TALOS VS NAGA:


  • Surprisingly enough, the Talos seems quite popular, and a lot better performance wise than the initial feedback suggested. Even if we have been discussing its relative balance with the Naga, nothing is planned to be changed on either of them for now; in the remote possibility we tweak them, it would most likely be modifications affecting all tier 3 battlecruisers, like a slight speed decrease. But again, tier 3 battlecruisers are not on the top of our balancing list right now.


DRAKE (and to an extent, tier 2 battlecruisers):

There is a reason why it is the most used battlecruiser out there. The problem with the Drake is that it is does everything too well for little cost or sacrifice, while being easy to train for. Thus, and to an extent most of the tier 2 battlecruisers create a certain number of issues that should be addressed:

(Yes, leaving tier 1 battlecruisers out of the discussion because there is no point arguing with the obvious fact they need some attention).


  • Overshadow other tech 1 hulls: the leap in performance between cruiser and tier 2 battlecruiser classes is just too great for too little cost (average slot count, EHP mainly). This, coupled with the gain in damage for having access to more weapon slots, as well as extra fitting power (ever tried squeezing turrets into an Omen and keep a decent fit?), makes the small loss of speed irrelevant when leaving the cruiser class as battlecruisers still remain fairly mobile. That's partly why the Hurricane also is so popular.

  • Overshadows tech 2 counterparts: Heavy Assault Ships and Command Ships are suffering from this situation. This is most apparent with the Nighthawk, but any ship that shares a common role with them is affected. Why take the time to train up and pay for an expensive hull when there is an easy to get into and cheap option available that almost have the same performance?

  • Incorrectly funnel new players: don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP. What's the point of a Bellicose? Exequror? Maller? Moa? They shouldn't be things you just skip on the way to a greater purpose, like a leaf of salad in my 250gr double-layered onion and egg hamburger.

  • Have odd, conflicting, or too much versatile roles: Drake has both a shield resistance and damage bonus, making it quite effective at passive tanking, but doesn't give it a focused purpose. Then you have the Myrmidon, which doesn't really know what it is supposed to do, like some Japanese anime characters don't know which gender they are trying to be: it's a mix of a turret ship without turret bonuses (and often ends up with autocannons fitted, the blasphemy), but also is a drone ship for its drone bonuses, while lacking the bandwidth or bay to support this claim. Some examples to solve this could be to turn the Drake in line with the Caracal and Raven in term of role, as a heavy offensive medium range missile platform, and to turn the Myrmidon into a proper drone ship. That would also help having a consistent, logical progression line between the cruiser and battleship roles as well, if we are careful not having the larger versions override the smaller ones.



But why so serious? Let's put a smile on these faces.

There are a lot of ships that needs to be looked into and were not mentioned here: they evolved, they rebelled and they have a plan™. If all goes well, expect a blog to come out soon™.

Amazing Sir Simply Amazing.

If I had and regrets re-subbing for the New Direction you just squashed them.
Not-Apsalar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2012-01-18 16:14:23 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:


#1 How many other tech 1 battlecruisers can run a level 4 mission solo? The point is their tank is too much for a ship of their size. To be perfectly honest, nobody worth their salt will be upset that a Drake can no longer run a lvl4 mission, you should be running those in a higher quality of ship. I am actually more excited that the Drake will be able to deal more damage


Err, you can't run Level 4 missions efficiently in a maxed out drake. You need to warp in and out if CR or kite for days. And we're not even talking about Angel Extravaganza. Efficient Level 4s start at a Raven and end at a faction/tech2 battleship, command ship, or T3

I can run Level 4s in a bomber. It just takes all goddamned day. That's no different than a Drake.
Alara IonStorm
#185 - 2012-01-18 16:19:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Not-Apsalar wrote:

Err, you can't run Level 4 missions efficiently in a maxed out drake. You need to warp in and out if CR or kite for days. And we're not even talking about Angel Extravaganza. Efficient Level 4s start at a Raven and end at a faction/tech2 battleship, command ship, or T3

I can run Level 4s in a bomber. It just takes all goddamned day. That's no different than a Drake.

Ummm what?

I run Angel in Drake all the damn time and I do it in 15-20min flat. I put on an AB because I don't need the extra tank and Fury Scourge Missiles eat Angel Battleships in 4 Shots.

I live in Amarr Space and I do EM Weak Missions in a Drake real Quick. I never need to warp out and 510 DPS is a more then enough to burn through any LvL 4 Missions at a reasonable pace.
Not-Apsalar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#186 - 2012-01-18 16:20:23 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
dose any one even relise that the drake was and is the problem it breakes the mold, its the deffence of the Caldari gun boats with the mids of our sheild boats. I can't wait for my drakes to get this well needed damage boost! ROF on a BC till now thats been a BS and up thing.
Hi-sec mission runners you can do the exact damage you need at ranges to far for the NPC's to fight back from and 25%ROF is more that 25%dammage to one type.
Low sec PvPers HAM's any one? I like the idea of going toe to toe with canes Twisted
null sec get back in your tempest, why were you even in drakes before? Oh ya every one can fly them.


You really think they'll up the damage and rof for HAMs? Did you see what they did to the Naga? Once they saw that it would actually be a pretty good ship with torps they removed the capability of the ship to fit it. Now it's just another Caldari rail sniper ultimately destined for the back end of everyone's hangar because of broken warp mechanics and better Minmatar ships of the same class with better weaponry, speed, sig, and align time. It's going to be a heavy missile only bonus if anything, and if many of the people here had their way it would be another useless rail platform
Not-Apsalar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#187 - 2012-01-18 16:22:28 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Not-Apsalar wrote:

Err, you can't run Level 4 missions efficiently in a maxed out drake. You need to warp in and out if CR or kite for days. And we're not even talking about Angel Extravaganza. Efficient Level 4s start at a Raven and end at a faction/tech2 battleship, command ship, or T3

I can run Level 4s in a bomber. It just takes all goddamned day. That's no different than a Drake.

Ummm what?

I run Angel in Drake all the damn time and I do it in 15-20min flat. I put on an AB because I don't need the extra tank and Fury Scourge Missiles eat Angel Battleships in 4 Shots.

I live in Amarr Space and I do EM Weak Missions in a Drake real Quick. I never need to warp out and 510 DPS is a more then enough to burn through any LvL 4 Missions at a reasonable pace.


It's a much slower pace than you can accomplish with other higher tier/tech/SP ships
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#188 - 2012-01-18 16:22:32 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
"they evolved, they rebelled and they have a plan™, If all goes well, expect a blog to come out soon™.



I'm starting to like ya Lol
Alara IonStorm
#189 - 2012-01-18 16:24:07 UTC
Not-Apsalar wrote:

It's a much slower pace than you can accomplish with other higher tier/tech/SP ships

Doesn't matter it is able to do them much, much better then any T1 Battlecruiser.
Tore Vest
#190 - 2012-01-18 16:25:15 UTC
Nerf drakes Twisted

No troll.

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#191 - 2012-01-18 16:26:58 UTC
Tore Vest wrote:
Nerf drakes Twisted


NO !!

Give them tools for their role yes, let them be kings of the hill for every purpose: NOES

Same goes for Canes, omgfkpown "vavavroum" Tornados etc
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#192 - 2012-01-18 16:27:18 UTC
Not-Apsalar wrote:
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
dose any one even relise that the drake was and is the problem it breakes the mold, its the deffence of the Caldari gun boats with the mids of our sheild boats. I can't wait for my drakes to get this well needed damage boost! ROF on a BC till now thats been a BS and up thing.
Hi-sec mission runners you can do the exact damage you need at ranges to far for the NPC's to fight back from and 25%ROF is more that 25%dammage to one type.
Low sec PvPers HAM's any one? I like the idea of going toe to toe with canes Twisted
null sec get back in your tempest, why were you even in drakes before? Oh ya every one can fly them.


You really think they'll up the damage and rof for HAMs? Did you see what they did to the Naga? Once they saw that it would actually be a pretty good ship with torps they removed the capability of the ship to fit it. Now it's just another Caldari rail sniper ultimately destined for the back end of everyone's hangar because of broken warp mechanics and better Minmatar ships of the same class with better weaponry, speed, sig, and align time. It's going to be a heavy missile only bonus if anything, and if many of the people here had their way it would be another useless rail platform


LOL
Ya no one flys naga's LOL
No It lost its crappy range on 2 weapons for range and damage on the guns that deliver damage instantly. If it stayed the way it was it wouldn't have been flown as it dose not have the tank to wait around for a few waves of torps to hit.
If any thing It wont get the bonus to assault missiles, tho i hope it dose i want to insta pop figgs in it!Twisted

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Lili Lu
#193 - 2012-01-18 16:34:17 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
The problem isn't the Drake, it's PVE and tier 2 BCs in general. Now, nobody really cares about PVE and Gurista-Drake balance, but let's pretend that they do. Fix this by giving BCs the shield recharge rates of BS. The PVP effect will be minimal.

Now to solve the problem of tier 2 BCs obsoleting tier 1s, cruisers and (to a considerable extent) close-range HACs, with the result that cruisers have no role and half the gangs that you see in space are tier 2 BC blobs. Fix this by cutting tier 2 BCs down to tier 1 levels; cutting their slots, HP and making the Hurricane in particular much harder to fit.

There, fixed.


As in Nuke half of EVE from orbit right?

Do not change the Drake!

Spot on Gypsio. And this is about what Ytterbium is saying. But ffs how long has it taken CCP to have the balls to do this.

Endeavor Starfleet, you are a relatively new player, less than a year, assuming this is your main. You need to learn some about the game as a whole instead of being so attached to the Drake that allowed you into level 4 isk making ahaead of players that flew other races.

Resist bonuses in general are tricky things. Marry them with a damage bonus and be careful. The Abaddon is on that list. At least the abaddon has the cap problem. Whereas the Drake had no problem to address. However, considering the proliferation of Abaddons we could be looking at an adjustment there at some point in the future.

The point is this is what this game should be about. Balancing is a difficult but necessary business. If certain ships get used too much and for tasks more advanced than other ships in its class it is in need of adjustment. These things cycle. For pvp I've seen Gallente on top, then Amarr, then Minmatar, while Amarr was on the bottom, then Minmatar, then Gallente. Curiously Caldari never owned the top or the bottom. And it's always owned the top in pve.

What the above paragraph is saying is that every character should have at least two race of ships it can fly. This is so that that character has an option if they acurately or mistakenly percieve the race of ships that they currently fly as inferior. Endeavor, you followed the herd into the easy route toward pve success. Can't really criticize you for that. I did it with two other characters i have. But now you do need to realize that the game changes and you need to adjust with it.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#194 - 2012-01-18 16:35:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Alara IonStorm wrote:

Amazing Sir Simply Amazing.

If I had and regrets re-subbing for the New Direction you just squashed them.

Right. I'm pretty sure courageous balancing will bring back to EVE much more customers (who got fed up with broken stuff) then all other means combined.

That's way to go, CCP! Smile

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#195 - 2012-01-18 16:36:48 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
You do realize that then the same exact excuse that they will use to nerf the drake can and will be used to nerf the Tengu right?


I've already stated that Caldari should be rebalanced as a whole rather than a single ship.


Wow so not only should we nuke the Drake from orbit. Lets drag up all the nukes ever made and nuke an entire in game race.

BRILLIANT!


I think you're blowing it out of proportion. What I'm saying is that Caldari shouldn't have their regenerating tank AND capless weapons too. But, since they do, one or the other needs to be shaved down a hair.

There should be more trade offs when fitting Caldari, like everything other race......hmmm, do I fit the biggest baddest blasters on this boat? Or do I save some cap and put it into my tank? But, changes to Caldari don't necessarily require that they lose their current advantage....just temper it a bit.

Don't ban me, bro!

Alundil
Rolled Out
#196 - 2012-01-18 16:41:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Alundil
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:



Very doubtful. The goal is to remove the ability of newer players to enjoy eve without joining a super big alliance that has NAPed areas for moon goo in my opinion. Otherwise why on earth would CCP propose this in the first place?

What on earth is going on CCP? Please say you will NOT implement this!


Lord - can this get any more "sky is falling" chicken little-esque?

Of course CCP's goal is to remove the ability for newer players to enjoy EVE. Why didn't I think of that. It's all so crystal clear to me now.


:/

I'm right behind you

octahexx Charante
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2012-01-18 16:41:48 UTC
ccp...maybe you should check some facts before you eat out of the hand of csm...caldari overpowered?
yeah every fleet in null is not minmatar or amarr...its caldari the ravens and the feared pvp scorpion and feroxes are ruling the nullsec...we dont have anyway of stopping these overpowered pvp gods of eve.


the tengu and the drake is the only reason anyone would ever skill caldari so if you wanna kill that entire race nerf it because nobody will skill from kestrel to tengu.

maybe you should stop doing "nerfs" at random and thereby screwing up all the races...nerfing is what led you here in the first place..random whacks with the bat until everything is crap...and the if a ship is not crap and actually can do anything its op and needs the bat.....can you see the pattern here?

whack-a-mole nerfing and try to hit anything functional that popsup because everything else keeps getting pushed down.


Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#198 - 2012-01-18 16:43:16 UTC
Quote:
Lord - can this get any more "sky is falling" chicken little-esque?

Of course CCP's goal is to remove the ability for newer players to enjoy EVE. Why didn't I think of that. It's also crystal clear to me now.


You seem surprised from these forums.
Welcome to EVE, you must be new here.

Although I admit, I have not heard this much sensationalist conspiracy talk since the nanonerf.
Not-Apsalar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#199 - 2012-01-18 16:49:28 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:


There should be more trade offs when fitting Caldari, like everything other race......hmmm, do I fit the biggest baddest blasters on this boat? Or do I save some cap and put it into my tank? But, changes to Caldari don't necessarily require that they lose their current advantage....just temper it a bit.


There is a trade off. It's called delayed DPS, difficulty with faster smaller ships, high susceptibility to ECM, single damage type ammunition, no damage bonuses against common pvp resist holes, tech 2 ammo issues, high sig before and after fitting(easily highest in the class with standard fittings), slow align, etc.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#200 - 2012-01-18 16:49:42 UTC
octahexx Charante wrote:

the tengu and the drake is the only reason anyone would ever skill caldari so if you wanna kill that entire race nerf it because nobody will skill from kestrel to tengu.

I trained Caldari Cruiser 5 for the sole purpose of flying Nighthawk back in yearly 2009. And guess what? I've never regretted since then.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.