These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[November] Introducing the Porpoise

First post First post
Author
Cade Windstalker
#221 - 2016-10-24 13:03:45 UTC
Goati wrote:
If there should be progression as you say, then the progression should be the same as it is with battlecruisers to command ships. Battlecruisers get 50% burst range bonus, and command ships gets 100% burst range bonus. The Orca could get a boost to be above 50% if need be.

The Porpoise should get the 50% range bonus, as it is a battlecruiser after all - it's very stupid for an 'industrial command battlecruiser' to not get a 50% burst range bonus, when the Drake for example, a combat battlecruiser not even specialised in bursts, does get the 50% range bonus. In fact, this is completely ridicluous.

CCP, why does a 'mining command ship' specialised in command bursts not receive the 50% range to bursts, when a combat battlecruiser, not even specialised in bursts, does receive a 50% range bonus?


We have that, with the Orca(50% range) to the Rorqual(50% range, with another 100% or 200% range on the Industrial Core)

I think the issue here is you're equating the Porpoise to the BC slot when the Orca serves more closely to that boosting slot in the mining progression chain with the Porpoise filling the role more closely aligned to the Command Destroyer in terms of being the lowest tier on the chain.

There's nothing that says that the Porpoise needs to fit the role of a "Mining BC" just because of its size.
Goati
Doomheim
#222 - 2016-10-24 14:29:27 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Goati wrote:
If there should be progression as you say, then the progression should be the same as it is with battlecruisers to command ships. Battlecruisers get 50% burst range bonus, and command ships gets 100% burst range bonus. The Orca could get a boost to be above 50% if need be.

The Porpoise should get the 50% range bonus, as it is a battlecruiser after all - it's very stupid for an 'industrial command battlecruiser' to not get a 50% burst range bonus, when the Drake for example, a combat battlecruiser not even specialised in bursts, does get the 50% range bonus. In fact, this is completely ridicluous.

CCP, why does a 'mining command ship' specialised in command bursts not receive the 50% range to bursts, when a combat battlecruiser, not even specialised in bursts, does receive a 50% range bonus?


We have that, with the Orca(50% range) to the Rorqual(50% range, with another 100% or 200% range on the Industrial Core)

I think the issue here is you're equating the Porpoise to the BC slot when the Orca serves more closely to that boosting slot in the mining progression chain with the Porpoise filling the role more closely aligned to the Command Destroyer in terms of being the lowest tier on the chain.

There's nothing that says that the Porpoise needs to fit the role of a "Mining BC" just because of its size.


The Porpoise IS a command battlecruiser. The Orca most certainly is nowhere near the level of battlecruiser, it's so large and slow, it's basically just a smaller Rorqual designed for hi-sec use.
Cade Windstalker
#223 - 2016-10-24 19:29:40 UTC
Goati wrote:
The Porpoise IS a command battlecruiser. The Orca most certainly is nowhere near the level of battlecruiser, it's so large and slow, it's basically just a smaller Rorqual designed for hi-sec use.


You're still equating size with boosting performance.

Mining ships are not combat ships and don't need to be balanced along the same lines. If you feel that the range bonus is more valuable than the mining amount bonus then you've already got that option in the form of a Combat BC. If you just want both then CCP have made their value judgement on that combination of bonuses pretty clear with how they distributed them between the Porpoise, Orca, and Rorqual.
Erasmus Grant
Order of the Eclipse
Triumvirate.
#224 - 2016-10-24 20:38:33 UTC
I would like to see Porpose to get the use of medium micro jumpdrive or cloaking bonus to that of BlOps
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#225 - 2016-10-24 21:01:21 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


You're still equating size with boosting performance.

Mining ships are not combat ships and don't need to be balanced along the same lines. If you feel that the range bonus is more valuable than the mining amount bonus then you've already got that option in the form of a Combat BC. If you just want both then CCP have made their value judgement on that combination of bonuses pretty clear with how they distributed them between the Porpoise, Orca, and Rorqual.

Actually they do need balancing along the same lines as combat ships. Just instead of DPS bonuses they get mining/hauling bonuses. But otherwise they should be balanced along the same lines as combat ships.

The fact that they haven't been till now is why we have such a cultural bias treating miners as second class citizens of EVE, because CCP themselves have been treating them as second class citizens and not allowing them to actually fit their ships with any variety. Compare the number of slots, PG & CPU to an equivalent size/cost Combat ship. If the answer is not 'Basically the same' then there is an issue, and Industrialists will continue to get mistreated.

And yes, giving them the same means people will come up with some combat uses for them, And? Why is this a bad thing if someone decided that a proper fittable freighter made a great pipe bombing ship. Who cares, it's out in space at risk doing stuff.

So yes it should have the range bonus.
And it should have the same fitting options.
Erasmus Grant
Order of the Eclipse
Triumvirate.
#226 - 2016-10-24 21:14:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Erasmus Grant
The range is kinda garbage. Considering the size of belts. I do love the 3.61 AU/s though

Fozzie said Fleet Hangar of 5k, but my Porpoise only has 2k with max skills

I would love for some fits to be PM'd to me.
Isler Twy'Lar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2016-10-24 21:21:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Isler Twy'Lar
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Goati wrote:
The Porpoise IS a command battlecruiser. The Orca most certainly is nowhere near the level of battlecruiser, it's so large and slow, it's basically just a smaller Rorqual designed for hi-sec use.


You're still equating size with boosting performance.

Mining ships are not combat ships and don't need to be balanced along the same lines. If you feel that the range bonus is more valuable than the mining amount bonus then you've already got that option in the form of a Combat BC. If you just want both then CCP have made their value judgement on that combination of bonuses pretty clear with how they distributed them between the Porpoise, Orca, and Rorqual.


So give the range bonus to mining bursts only.

*Edit*
Actually I take that back. lol. That's a really bad idea. They need the other bursts as well. I don't think that giving them the ability to work an entire belt will break the game.
Isler Twy'Lar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2016-10-24 21:27:13 UTC
Erasmus Grant wrote:
The range is kinda garbage. Considering the size of belts. I do love the 3.61 AU/s though

Fozzie said Fleet Hangar of 5k, but my Porpoise only has 2k with max skills

I would love for some fits to be PM'd to me.


Are they on the test server now?
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#229 - 2016-10-24 21:39:58 UTC  |  Edited by: PopeUrban
Erasmus Grant wrote:
I would like to see Porpose to get the use of medium micro jumpdrive or cloaking bonus to that of BlOps


This is a hilarious and not all that inappropriate idea.

It would give it a unique role that would go well with the t2 mining frigs for "blops ninja mining" fleets.

I support giving the porpoise covops cloaking, and perhaps a role bonus that made its boosts more effective on expedition frigs. it would give the ship a use byond "That thing you get when you can't get an Orca" without removing its progression based utility.

You could use it with a blops BS and some expedition frigs to give people interesting options.
Penance Toralen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#230 - 2016-10-24 21:57:20 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Goati wrote:
The Porpoise IS a command battlecruiser. The Orca most certainly is nowhere near the level of battlecruiser, it's so large and slow, it's basically just a smaller Rorqual designed for hi-sec use.


You're still equating size with boosting performance.

Mining ships are not combat ships and don't need to be balanced along the same lines. If you feel that the range bonus is more valuable than the mining amount bonus then you've already got that option in the form of a Combat BC. If you just want both then CCP have made their value judgement on that combination of bonuses pretty clear with how they distributed them between the Porpoise, Orca, and Rorqual.


I disagree with segregation for industrial ships. At the beginning of the game the Osprey was a prime mining hull. There was certainly no need the balance its defence. Why should it now be a consideration? Will mining ships face less aggression because of their non-combat role? (CCP once thought so when mining barges were original released with a single mid slot and a shield tank intention. The playerbase has long since proven otherwise). If Industralists are treated the same as a target then they deserve to be treated the same for the scale of ability to face combat.
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#231 - 2016-10-25 00:15:31 UTC
Penance Toralen wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Goati wrote:
The Porpoise IS a command battlecruiser. The Orca most certainly is nowhere near the level of battlecruiser, it's so large and slow, it's basically just a smaller Rorqual designed for hi-sec use.


You're still equating size with boosting performance.

Mining ships are not combat ships and don't need to be balanced along the same lines. If you feel that the range bonus is more valuable than the mining amount bonus then you've already got that option in the form of a Combat BC. If you just want both then CCP have made their value judgement on that combination of bonuses pretty clear with how they distributed them between the Porpoise, Orca, and Rorqual.


I disagree with segregation for industrial ships. At the beginning of the game the Osprey was a prime mining hull. There was certainly no need the balance its defence. Why should it now be a consideration? Will mining ships face less aggression because of their non-combat role? (CCP once thought so when mining barges were original released with a single mid slot and a shield tank intention. The playerbase has long since proven otherwise). If Industralists are treated the same as a target then they deserve to be treated the same for the scale of ability to face combat.


Mining hulls are not treated the same as a target.

They are not combat ships. They are targets of opportunity. Their entire job is to create objective context for combat ships by being the primary source of minerals that the economy needs.

They do not, nor should they obey the same balancing metrics as combat ships because they have a completely separate design intent.

Also keep in mind CCP hasn't stated exactly what the new drilling platform structures actually DO, and the only image we have of one is anchored IN a belt. If drilling platforms are actually capable of drilling a belt from a fixed position, perhaps requiring a player to occupy and run it like structure weapons, it drastically changes the overall employment and intent of mining ships and possibly the overall utility of mining boosts.

We could very well be on our way to an EVE where mining with a spaceship is one of two options for resource gathering, the other being hauling industrials to deploy, anchor, and unanchor tankier fixed platforms for the length of an op.
Penance Toralen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#232 - 2016-10-25 01:51:03 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:
Penance Toralen wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Goati wrote:
The Porpoise IS a command battlecruiser. The Orca most certainly is nowhere near the level of battlecruiser, it's so large and slow, it's basically just a smaller Rorqual designed for hi-sec use.


You're still equating size with boosting performance.

Mining ships are not combat ships and don't need to be balanced along the same lines. If you feel that the range bonus is more valuable than the mining amount bonus then you've already got that option in the form of a Combat BC. If you just want both then CCP have made their value judgement on that combination of bonuses pretty clear with how they distributed them between the Porpoise, Orca, and Rorqual.


I disagree with segregation for industrial ships. At the beginning of the game the Osprey was a prime mining hull. There was certainly no need the balance its defence. Why should it now be a consideration? Will mining ships face less aggression because of their non-combat role? (CCP once thought so when mining barges were original released with a single mid slot and a shield tank intention. The playerbase has long since proven otherwise). If Industralists are treated the same as a target then they deserve to be treated the same for the scale of ability to face combat.


Mining hulls are not treated the same as a target.

They are not combat ships. They are targets of opportunity. Their entire job is to create objective context for combat ships by being the primary source of minerals that the economy needs.

They do not, nor should they obey the same balancing metrics as combat ships because they have a completely separate design intent.

Also keep in mind CCP hasn't stated exactly what the new drilling platform structures actually DO, and the only image we have of one is anchored IN a belt. If drilling platforms are actually capable of drilling a belt from a fixed position, perhaps requiring a player to occupy and run it like structure weapons, it drastically changes the overall employment and intent of mining ships and possibly the overall utility of mining boosts.

We could very well be on our way to an EVE where mining with a spaceship is one of two options for resource gathering, the other being hauling industrials to deploy, anchor, and unanchor tankier fixed platforms for the length of an op.



I would challenge you to point out any dev-blog which backs the convention that a sub-set of the playerbase is reserved to be for specific aggression. I'll double down and challenge CCP back this. Be honest and consider - how many people would continue with Industry or even Eve with the realisation that they are segregated BY DESIGN into the role of "the target".

The conceptisation that Industrials should be weaker is a player desire. CCP has intended otherwise when the Procurer and Skiff were given solid tanking options and drone bonuses. When the Prospect and Endurance were given cloaking bonuses.
AL1CA
Procurator Volatilis
Domain Research and Mining Inst. Logistics
#233 - 2016-10-25 02:24:56 UTC
1.just got off singularity and the fleet hanger for the porpoise is only 2k m3 not what you posted did you change that and not tell us
2. not sure if needs to be here or on burst but why are the mining burst creating a weapons timer you will not be able to dock and get back to the fleet in time to give boosts again is this planed for or mistake
Isler Twy'Lar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2016-10-25 03:14:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Isler Twy'Lar
Penance Toralen wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Penance Toralen wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Goati wrote:
The Porpoise IS a command battlecruiser. The Orca most certainly is nowhere near the level of battlecruiser, it's so large and slow, it's basically just a smaller Rorqual designed for hi-sec use.


You're still equating size with boosting performance.

Mining ships are not combat ships and don't need to be balanced along the same lines. If you feel that the range bonus is more valuable than the mining amount bonus then you've already got that option in the form of a Combat BC. If you just want both then CCP have made their value judgement on that combination of bonuses pretty clear with how they distributed them between the Porpoise, Orca, and Rorqual.


I disagree with segregation for industrial ships. At the beginning of the game the Osprey was a prime mining hull. There was certainly no need the balance its defence. Why should it now be a consideration? Will mining ships face less aggression because of their non-combat role? (CCP once thought so when mining barges were original released with a single mid slot and a shield tank intention. The playerbase has long since proven otherwise). If Industralists are treated the same as a target then they deserve to be treated the same for the scale of ability to face combat.


Mining hulls are not treated the same as a target.

They are not combat ships. They are targets of opportunity. Their entire job is to create objective context for combat ships by being the primary source of minerals that the economy needs.

They do not, nor should they obey the same balancing metrics as combat ships because they have a completely separate design intent.

Also keep in mind CCP hasn't stated exactly what the new drilling platform structures actually DO, and the only image we have of one is anchored IN a belt. If drilling platforms are actually capable of drilling a belt from a fixed position, perhaps requiring a player to occupy and run it like structure weapons, it drastically changes the overall employment and intent of mining ships and possibly the overall utility of mining boosts.

We could very well be on our way to an EVE where mining with a spaceship is one of two options for resource gathering, the other being hauling industrials to deploy, anchor, and unanchor tankier fixed platforms for the length of an op.



I would challenge you to point out any dev-blog which backs the convention that a sub-set of the playerbase is reserved to be for specific aggression. I'll double down and challenge CCP back this. Be honest and consider - how many people would continue with Industry or even Eve with the realisation that they are segregated BY DESIGN into the role of "the target".

The conceptisation that Industrials should be weaker is a player desire. CCP has intended otherwise when the Procurer and Skiff were given solid tanking options and drone bonuses. When the Prospect and Endurance were given cloaking bonuses.


The funny thing is that many players in Eve see other players as "content" and are actually against balance because they just want easy kills. If you want proof of this, all you have to do is look at how many players are out there using game mechanics to trick inexperienced players into fights that they have no hope of surviving. These types of players don't want industrialists to be anything other than easy targets.

Btw, this is also why Eve is and will always be a niche game with a low population.
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#235 - 2016-10-26 02:22:05 UTC  |  Edited by: PopeUrban
Penance Toralen wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Penance Toralen wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Goati wrote:
The Porpoise IS a command battlecruiser. The Orca most certainly is nowhere near the level of battlecruiser, it's so large and slow, it's basically just a smaller Rorqual designed for hi-sec use.


You're still equating size with boosting performance.

Mining ships are not combat ships and don't need to be balanced along the same lines. If you feel that the range bonus is more valuable than the mining amount bonus then you've already got that option in the form of a Combat BC. If you just want both then CCP have made their value judgement on that combination of bonuses pretty clear with how they distributed them between the Porpoise, Orca, and Rorqual.


I disagree with segregation for industrial ships. At the beginning of the game the Osprey was a prime mining hull. There was certainly no need the balance its defence. Why should it now be a consideration? Will mining ships face less aggression because of their non-combat role? (CCP once thought so when mining barges were original released with a single mid slot and a shield tank intention. The playerbase has long since proven otherwise). If Industralists are treated the same as a target then they deserve to be treated the same for the scale of ability to face combat.


Mining hulls are not treated the same as a target.

They are not combat ships. They are targets of opportunity. Their entire job is to create objective context for combat ships by being the primary source of minerals that the economy needs.

They do not, nor should they obey the same balancing metrics as combat ships because they have a completely separate design intent.

Also keep in mind CCP hasn't stated exactly what the new drilling platform structures actually DO, and the only image we have of one is anchored IN a belt. If drilling platforms are actually capable of drilling a belt from a fixed position, perhaps requiring a player to occupy and run it like structure weapons, it drastically changes the overall employment and intent of mining ships and possibly the overall utility of mining boosts.

We could very well be on our way to an EVE where mining with a spaceship is one of two options for resource gathering, the other being hauling industrials to deploy, anchor, and unanchor tankier fixed platforms for the length of an op.



I would challenge you to point out any dev-blog which backs the convention that a sub-set of the playerbase is reserved to be for specific aggression. I'll double down and challenge CCP back this. Be honest and consider - how many people would continue with Industry or even Eve with the realisation that they are segregated BY DESIGN into the role of "the target".

The conceptisation that Industrials should be weaker is a player desire. CCP has intended otherwise when the Procurer and Skiff were given solid tanking options and drone bonuses. When the Prospect and Endurance were given cloaking bonuses.


The design intent is quite clear. Mining ships are bonused primarily for mining. That is their function. The fact that more rewarding ore is found in lower security space makes it pretty clear that the entire point of mining as a spaceship activity exists, primarily, to provide long term objective context for fighting.

You know, because you need those minerals to replace ships, and because the primary value of everything in the game revolves around mineral value, making mining ships the underpin of the entire entropy-based economic model.

Yes, mining ships are designed as targets for combat ships because of their intrinsic value as economic engines. This is why they aren't as good at combat as... ships designed for combat. Just like logi ships shouldn't be great at combat, or hacking ships, etc.

Different ships have different roles and different jobs, and thus different places in the implied overall metagame. The job of a mining ship is to present a target by being forced to remain visible and immobile for long stretches of time, and it is rewarded for this role by being extremely efficient at generating value for itself while doing so.

I'm not arguing they should be useless, or untankable, but the current list of changes makes sense. Mining ships are roughly able to fit enough DPS alongside mining gear to engage at -1 on their threat/size scale, with the smallest ships being primarily bonused for not fighting at all (and in stead being agile, warp stabbed, and cloak tanked)
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#236 - 2016-10-26 19:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Gwendolyn Antollare
Fleet Hangar on Porpoise listed at 5000m3 but is only 2000m3 on SISI currently. 2000m3 is not large enough to hold 1 cycle of a hulk it needs to be much larger.

Nerfing Hisec has never fixed Losec or Nullsec

Isler Twy'Lar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2016-10-26 20:51:06 UTC
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare wrote:
Fleet Hangar on Porpoise listed at 5000m3 but is only 2000m3 on SISI currently. 2000m3 is not large enough to hold 1 cycle of a hulk it needs to be much larger.


I sm hoping they meant 20,000 m3. <.<
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#238 - 2016-10-26 22:56:30 UTC
Isler Twy'Lar wrote:
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare wrote:
Fleet Hangar on Porpoise listed at 5000m3 but is only 2000m3 on SISI currently. 2000m3 is not large enough to hold 1 cycle of a hulk it needs to be much larger.


I sm hoping they meant 20,000 m3. <.<


Doesn't seem like it, Maybe CCP decided that the Porpoise is not a mining support ship (unlike the orca) and is designed to be used as a boosting ship only and ships in it's fleet are either trip mine or jet can for a Miasmos to pickup.

The ore hold will only hold 50,000 m3 or 62,500m3 maxed out with skills.

Nerfing Hisec has never fixed Losec or Nullsec

PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#239 - 2016-10-26 23:10:40 UTC
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare wrote:
Isler Twy'Lar wrote:
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare wrote:
Fleet Hangar on Porpoise listed at 5000m3 but is only 2000m3 on SISI currently. 2000m3 is not large enough to hold 1 cycle of a hulk it needs to be much larger.


I sm hoping they meant 20,000 m3. <.<


Doesn't seem like it, Maybe CCP decided that the Porpoise is not a mining support ship (unlike the orca) and is designed to be used as a boosting ship only and ships in it's fleet are either trip mine or jet can for a Miasmos to pickup.

The ore hold will only hold 50,000 m3 or 62,500m3 maxed out with skills.


I think with the command bursts being the only way to get boosts its pretty important to have smaller cheaper boosting ships.

Where before you could get a small boost just by having the skill on the FC, now you have to fit a module, so having dedicated cheap platforms for those modules is pretty important even if they don't offer the same range of utility as their larger brethren.
Penance Toralen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#240 - 2016-10-27 01:55:39 UTC
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare wrote:
Isler Twy'Lar wrote:
Lady Gwendolyn Antollare wrote:
Fleet Hangar on Porpoise listed at 5000m3 but is only 2000m3 on SISI currently. 2000m3 is not large enough to hold 1 cycle of a hulk it needs to be much larger.


I sm hoping they meant 20,000 m3. <.<


Doesn't seem like it, Maybe CCP decided that the Porpoise is not a mining support ship (unlike the orca) and is designed to be used as a boosting ship only and ships in it's fleet are either trip mine or jet can for a Miasmos to pickup.

The ore hold will only hold 50,000 m3 or 62,500m3 maxed out with skills.


But 50k was the original size for the Orca. So for a ship capable of transversing a frigate only wormhole it is certainly a significant gain. If you are feeding Hulks into a Porpoise - it is overworking the ship. A solid Hulk pilot could fill a jetcan in 13 minutes. So two hulks will fill a max Porpoise in around 15 minutes. (even sooner if the Porpoise has mining drones). Then what, dock up to empty or start jetcanning?

I do see the point, particularly as it was the original spec. But if you can get exhumers on the field, I would be asking why you have not stepped up a Orca.