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Dev blog: Command Bursts and the New World of Fleet Boosting

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Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#1561 - 2016-10-24 14:42:58 UTC
HandelsPharmi wrote:
The 15 % effect of your slot 10 implant will be lost.
With all the moduls (T2), ship boni and implants, your boost will be the same compared with the boost at the moment, without the 15 % of the mining forman implant.




Gotta love a 15% loss.

I said many pages back that the math was wrong, but that's none of my business.

Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
GsyBoy
Doomheim
#1562 - 2016-10-24 23:36:22 UTC  |  Edited by: GsyBoy
PvP combat - Still not enough feedback to opposition even though CCP clearly identified as requirement in brief, need tag similar to local criminal ident or drop bonuses if warp greater than d-scan so can see boosting ship.

https://www.twitch.tv/gsyboy
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1563 - 2016-10-24 23:50:51 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Skyler Hawk wrote:
Disembodied Head wrote:
Tried looking for the answer to the following question, sorry if it's already been hashed out:

What is happening with all the fleet/wing leadership skills? If they are no longer needed are we getting the SP back? Or is CCP just keeping those up to keep the massive time gate on boosting artificially high?

After the patch, they will increase the size of the boost AoE; Leadership will increase the range of the effect by 6%/level, Wing Command by 5%/level, and Fleet Command by 4%/level.

Judging by that poor excuse of a response - You don't fly much in fleets do you.

I can see Devs not understanding fleet mechanics but Your alliance is quite well known for its fleet work (AT included). Yet your response shows no understanding of fleet mechanics and how they are used on a grid during a fight.

I suppose every group has to have one, your Tuskers.




The question was "What is happening with the fleet/wing leadership skills?"

He accurately and completely stated what was happening with the leadership skills.

How does any of that have anything to do with flying in fleets?

It's like you're just arbitrarily raving at this point.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1564 - 2016-10-25 03:17:37 UTC
Just out of curiosity...

CCP, are the T2 command bursts on Sisi still supposed to only be as effective as the T1 command bursts?
Are they supposed to be identifying themselves as 'Tech Level: 1'?

Just kinda wondering, since these are gonna be going live in 2 weeks.
MAS0RAKSH
Doomheim
#1565 - 2016-10-25 05:40:50 UTC
any word if the command ships required training will change from requiring all the warfare skills to requiring only the bursts the ship specializes in?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1566 - 2016-10-25 11:10:41 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Off grid links needed to be fixed - This is not so much "fixing" the problem - As it is nerfing small gang, small group game play..

Why design mechanics that would involve strategies and tactics - When you can just throw together something that ensures the largest groups benefit from it the most.



this is a huge boon to small group/solo play. no longer will a boosting alt be required not to mention ppl who actually wanted to play this role can... you know, play

Seriously?
Seems you have little to no understanding of why small gangs use links.

This - "no longer will a boosting alt be required" - has got to be the most stupid thing I've ever seen you post.

Small gangs use and rely on links because 99.9% of the time they are outnumbered - Removing their ability to use links, is the same as saying, Don't bother undocking for that roam, your only going to die because you don't have enough, DPS, Logi and Links to compete.



They use links because 99.9% of the time so does the other guy

True but then you have the quite common scenarios where your 10 man gang bumps into a larger gang, can fight can hold their own even when both sides have a booster. BUT come November, which of those two groups do you think will have boosts and therefore a huge advantage over their opposition.

Example of small gang, with boosts;
A 10 man gang with boosts - has at most 7 dps, 2 logi, 1 booster.
The larger gang, say a 15 man gang, 10 dps, 3 logi, 1 hard tackle, 1 booster.
Won't make for very balanced small gang fighting, either side lose their booster, they lose the fight.

Realistically, Devs are making it so ONE ship in a small gang or fleet, will dictate who wins.

Then you have the situation where - Your small gang takes out small ships, what options do they have for "adequate" boosts. Command Destroyers just aren't designed to be on grid boosters, they are completely disposable, so it is T3's or nothing. T3's aren't a realistic choice due to low or no DPS and very limited tank having to use rig slots to fit links.

IMO, Devs have done a half reasonable job on boosting but failed to do a complete job by not introducing lines of ships designed for purpose. Command ships aren't an option for fleets using anything smaller than BC's or BS's (they are just too slow, in every way), T3's are just too limited with just a single link and T3D's, simply aren't designed to be boosters (as well as suffering the same drawback as T3's in fitting links)

Dev's have deliberately half done this job by not providing what is needed ships wise for the new boosting system.
I know things can change, someone at CCP might see the error here (removing the small gang/fleet meta) but how long will it take to recognize it And how much longer to fix it. CCP isn't known for their speed in fixing problems in meta's (just look at the Svipul)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1567 - 2016-10-25 11:31:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Skyler Hawk wrote:
Disembodied Head wrote:
Tried looking for the answer to the following question, sorry if it's already been hashed out:

What is happening with all the fleet/wing leadership skills? If they are no longer needed are we getting the SP back? Or is CCP just keeping those up to keep the massive time gate on boosting artificially high?

After the patch, they will increase the size of the boost AoE; Leadership will increase the range of the effect by 6%/level, Wing Command by 5%/level, and Fleet Command by 4%/level.

Judging by that poor excuse of a response - You don't fly much in fleets do you.

I can see Devs not understanding fleet mechanics but Your alliance is quite well known for its fleet work (AT included). Yet your response shows no understanding of fleet mechanics and how they are used on a grid during a fight.

I suppose every group has to have one, your Tuskers.




The question was "What is happening with the fleet/wing leadership skills?"

He accurately and completely stated what was happening with the leadership skills.

How does any of that have anything to do with flying in fleets?

It's like you're just arbitrarily raving at this point.

Anyone can quote the nonsense reasons Devs have given for the skills, that does not mean it is right.
I'm not entirely sure that his response addressed the question at all. One question that has appeared over and over in this thread - What is happening to these skills - Others too see them as now redundant and want to know what Devs have in mind for those who never trained leadership skills to run links...
On a personal note, I'd also like all the isk I've spent on implants reimbursed as they too are no longer relevant to my play style.

If you too had any understanding of fleet meta's, you would understand what i was trying to say. The skills involved aren't really worth having. With the new boosting mechanics, long range boosts become irrelevant. Why would a large fleet with numerous boosters spread out in it need long range boosts?
Anyone with a boosting ship can run boosts (the larger the fleet, the more links you can have active). Now even if you fleet is spread out (good way to die fast), you just ensure you have one (or more) booster with each group.. No need for A boosting ship to have long range boosts, 20 or 30K is more than enough.

On that basis I believe CCP should reimburse the skills and leave it to individuals as to how they use the SP (put them back into leadership, or not). The skills have been made redundant.

I am curious to know how fleet, wing and squad warps will work - The skills for those have been reallocated. (a nice stealth nerf to fleet movement)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1568 - 2016-10-25 15:47:04 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:


I am curious to know how fleet, wing and squad warps will work - The skills for those have been reallocated. (a nice stealth nerf to fleet movement)



Can't imagine why it would work any differently than it does now. They didn't say the concept of a fleet hierarchy was being removed, just the relationship between the hierarchy and boosts.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Tristiana Egivand
Kapsle i Profity
#1569 - 2016-10-25 20:27:48 UTC
What will happen to the existing warfare links and blueprints? Will you remove them or convert to the corresponding command bursts?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1570 - 2016-10-26 05:15:11 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:


I am curious to know how fleet, wing and squad warps will work - The skills for those have been reallocated. (a nice stealth nerf to fleet movement)



Can't imagine why it would work any differently than it does now. They didn't say the concept of a fleet hierarchy was being removed, just the relationship between the hierarchy and boosts.

The skills no longer correspond with fleet leadership and control as they were originally intended and trained for.

So if your right, then every fleet will need to have more members with max leadership skills, or risk losing control by having boosters in command positions as well as mixed into the fleet.. All seems a little redundant and not very well thought out to me..

Fleets can now have unlimited boosters active at any time yet control of the fleet relies on those boosters being in command positions - What a nice boon for large groups and a kick in the pants for smaller groups.

The idea behind this change was to remove the need for boosters to be in command positions to deliver boosts - But it doesn't.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1571 - 2016-10-26 06:43:51 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Sgt Ocker wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:


I am curious to know how fleet, wing and squad warps will work - The skills for those have been reallocated. (a nice stealth nerf to fleet movement)



Can't imagine why it would work any differently than it does now. They didn't say the concept of a fleet hierarchy was being removed, just the relationship between the hierarchy and boosts.

The skills no longer correspond with fleet leadership and control as they were originally intended and trained for.


So what? Obviously what's going to happen is that the old max-skill fleet hierarchy will just become "stock".

Quote:
So if your right, then every fleet will need to have more members with max leadership skills, or risk losing control by having boosters in command positions as well as mixed into the fleet.. All seems a little redundant and not very well thought out to me..


Huh? We just went over this. The only thing leadership skills will do is extend the range of boosts. That's it. There's no need to put them in a command position. There's no need for anyone who isn't actually running command bursts to have leadership skills at all (which is not the case right now).

The hierarchy is remaining. You won't need skills to fill out the hierarchy, as those skills have been repurposed. Receiving boosts will not be contingent on the hierarchy. This is all really simple.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1572 - 2016-10-26 10:00:42 UTC
Tristiana Egivand wrote:
What will happen to the existing warfare links and blueprints? Will you remove them or convert to the corresponding command bursts?


The existing links and their blueprints will indeed be converted into the corresponding command bursts.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1573 - 2016-10-26 10:12:00 UTC
Hey folks, have another update for you all with a few more changes to the plan.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, we have been giving some thought to the feedback we've received in this thread about the Evasive Maneuvers burst. We agree with the argument that signature radius is an extremely powerful bonus, however we think that converting the burst entirely into something else (like agility) would be a bit too much of a nerf.

So we're adjusting the Evasive Maneuvers burst to provide 6% bonuses to both signature radius and agility, rather than the previous 12% bonus to signature radius. We think this will help ensure that the Evasive Maneuvers burst remains powerful and thematic without being too overpowered.

We are also increasing the strength of the Leadership, Wing Command and Fleet Command range bonuses by 16.7%, 20% and 25% respectively (new values will be 7% per level for Leadership, 6% per level for WC and 5% per level for FC).
This helps boost the value of these skills a fair bit while also extending the max possible burst range by 12.5%.

Finally, the burst strength on the Titans was making them a bit too much of a jack of all trades. We are leaving the ability to operate multiple bursts and the range bonus, but removing the burst strength bonus from titans so that we won't be pushing people towards all-titan fleets. Of course the Titans all have the ability to use their own unique Phenomena Generators (previously known as Titan Effect Generators) which give them their own special capability for influencing the battlefield.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#1574 - 2016-10-26 10:17:10 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks, have another update for you all with a few more changes to the plan.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, we have been giving some thought to the feedback we've received in this thread about the Evasive Maneuvers burst. We agree with the argument that signature radius is an extremely powerful bonus, however we think that converting the burst entirely into something else (like agility) would be a bit too much of a nerf.

So we're adjusting the Evasive Maneuvers burst to provide 6% bonuses to both signature radius and agility, rather than the previous 12% bonus to signature radius. We think this will help ensure that the Evasive Maneuvers burst remains powerful and thematic without being too overpowered.

We are also increasing the strength of the Leadership, Wing Command and Fleet Command range bonuses by 16.7%, 20% and 25% respectively (new values will be 7% per level for Leadership, 6% per level for WC and 5% per level for FC).
This helps boost the value of these skills a fair bit while also extending the max possible burst range by 12.5%.

Finally, the burst strength on the Titans was making them a bit too much of a jack of all trades. We are leaving the ability to operate multiple bursts and the range bonus, but removing the burst strength bonus from titans so that we won't be pushing people towards all-titan fleets. Of course the Titans all have the ability to use their own unique Phenomena Generators (previously known as Titan Effect Generators) which give them their own special capability for influencing the battlefield.


Any news on the bonus for mining equipment, in the thread some people made suggestions.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Galinius Valgani
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1575 - 2016-10-26 10:52:31 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
good stuff...


Any ETA when the last devblog for Command Ships will appear.
New Skill requirements already on SiSi would be great to see your whole plan for Combat Boosting.
Penance Toralen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1576 - 2016-10-26 10:56:09 UTC
hello Fozzie

At the moment the burst module has a fixed cycle of 60sec. But the duration of the burst can be easily over 120sec. I potentially see this a source of frustration. Either it is automatic and wasteful of munitions or requires continuous manual cycling. Any thoughts about this?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1577 - 2016-10-26 11:12:52 UTC
Penance Toralen wrote:
hello Fozzie

At the moment the burst module has a fixed cycle of 60sec. But the duration of the burst can be easily over 120sec. I potentially see this a source of frustration. Either it is automatic and wasteful of munitions or requires continuous manual cycling. Any thoughts about this?


The effect duration being longer than the module duration is intended, as it allows consistent boosts with some wiggle room. This is helpful both for the players being boosted (not having their stats bounce around too much) and for server load (it's more efficient to refresh an existing buff than to apply a new one).

The munitions are so cheap and small that we expect the optimal course to be simply keeping auto-repeat on and not bothering to micromanage, but for people who really want to the option of micromanaging it is available.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
JTK Fotheringham
Ducks in Outer Space
#1578 - 2016-10-26 11:16:54 UTC  |  Edited by: JTK Fotheringham
Penance Toralen wrote:
hello Fozzie

At the moment the burst module has a fixed cycle of 60sec. But the duration of the burst can be easily over 120sec. I potentially see this a source of frustration. Either it is automatic and wasteful of munitions or requires continuous manual cycling. Any thoughts about this?


+1 to this.

I hadn't noticed the disconnect between Burst effect duration and burst cycle time until testing links on the new Orca.

As there's a consumption item involved, I think a corresponding cycle time bonus is merited - so that cycle time and burst duration match.

It just seems a bit of a perception disconnect - I mean, my blaster ROF might increase, so my DPS will increase, but so will my ammo consumption. Why can't Fleet boost bursts work the same way?

/JTK
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#1579 - 2016-10-26 11:30:05 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Huh? We just went over this. The only thing leadership skills will do is extend the range of boosts. That's it. There's no need to put them in a command position. There's no need for anyone who isn't actually running command bursts to have leadership skills at all (which is not the case right now).

The hierarchy is remaining. You won't need skills to fill out the hierarchy, as those skills have been repurposed. Receiving boosts will not be contingent on the hierarchy. This is all really simple.


Well said.

Just to reiterate/restate/hopefully get through to people who aren't understanding it... from what I've seen/read:

Basically, the fleet structure will only have two purposes:

A) allowing FC/WC/SC to do fleet/wing/squad warps...

B) plain ol' organisation.

Interesting that he referred to the leadership/WC/FC skills as being needed for doing squad/wing/fleet warps... when all they were ever used for before was passing down boosts from one booster to one part of the fleet. That is the part that is going away, hence the skills only be used for booster range... this is apparently blowing (some) people's minds.

But yes, it would be nice if they'd just do a SP refund (at least on WC/FC... leadership is not such a big deal) for all the people who never intend to fit a command burst module in their EVE lives going forward (though you never know, once they see how fun on-grid boosting can be, perhaps they'll change their minds. ;D)
Ded Akara
Doomheim
#1580 - 2016-10-26 12:00:50 UTC
JTK Fotheringham wrote:
Penance Toralen wrote:
hello Fozzie

At the moment the burst module has a fixed cycle of 60sec. But the duration of the burst can be easily over 120sec. I potentially see this a source of frustration. Either it is automatic and wasteful of munitions or requires continuous manual cycling. Any thoughts about this?


+1 to this.

I hadn't noticed the disconnect between Burst effect duration and burst cycle time until testing links on the new Orca.

As there's a consumption item involved, I think a corresponding cycle time bonus is merited - so that cycle time and burst duration match.

It just seems a bit of a perception disconnect - I mean, my blaster ROF might increase, so my DPS will increase, but so will my ammo consumption. Why can't Fleet boost bursts work the same way?

/JTK


I don't see what there is to complain about, it's better this way. The burst ammo is so cheap it doesn't even matter. It's highly useful to have a burst duration that lasts for 2 minutes whilst being able to reapply the burst every 30 seconds (with specialist level 5).