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[November] Introducing the Porpoise

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Cade Windstalker
#201 - 2016-10-17 18:54:50 UTC
Chan'aar wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
If that's your only reason for letting them use the Core then what you actually want is some kind of active anchor module that lets the ship become basically bump immune while it's cycling. No need to mess with the balance of the ships by giving it bonuses on top of that.


Would be suitable, although I'm sure someone will be along to explain how it could be exploited.


I'm not saying I necessarily think it's a good idea, but it's better than giving the Orca a full mini-core which there's no real reason not to use in High Sec, which has the potential to create a lot of imbalances for no reason.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#202 - 2016-10-18 16:18:51 UTC
I honestly don't see the porpoise.
Chan'aar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#203 - 2016-10-18 19:53:13 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I honestly don't see the porpoise.


Lol

Ba-dum tish
RainReaper
RRN Industries
#204 - 2016-10-18 20:04:09 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I honestly don't see the porpoise.


The Porpoise is to have a cheap ship for new people to use as well as haveing a ship that can enter frigate only wormhole space and help lead mining ops.

I think thats a good enough porpoise seing as wormholers have been beging for a ship that can enter frigate only wormholes to boost endurances and prospects during mining ops.
Cyclone Organic
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2016-10-18 20:47:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyclone Organic
I would strongly recommend that it is necessary to lower the skill requirement for porpoise.

Currently It is just a cheaper alternative to Orca with reasonable deduction of bonus effect. But I personally don't see it make too much sense. Just thinking about that, you are leading a mining fleet, your team members want to have a better bonus. And you are making suggestion or even decision of the choice between Orca and porpoise. You will tell them these two ships have the same skill requirements. So the only difference is the price-benefit comparison. I personally believe it is a good idea to raise some money by all team members to have an Orca because of its better performance in the long run. An Orca is not really too expensive for a corporation. For example, for a tiny mining corp with 5 high sec miners who plays about 4 hours per day (probably underestimated), on Plagioclase, they can make a profit around 6 m ISK per 30 minutes- person * 5 person * 2 * 24 = 1440000000 ISK per day.

Therefore, I would like to see it also serves as the term of entry-level skill for mining leadership.

How about remove the requirement of Industrial Command ship and put it down to ORE industry ship? Then players will have a step-by-step progression line.
Jenna Kyriel
Doomheim
#206 - 2016-10-18 21:08:12 UTC
4 medium and 2 low slots.

Is meant to do industry.

Okay look, this thing will be suicide ganked. Easily. Often. It needs far better options for defenses than this, I'd say 4/4/5 at the very least, because if anything will be coming for your minion ops, a pack if kids with disposable alts in Alpha-fit T1 dessies will, and that 'fight' will be over in 10 seconds of less and CONCORD won't save you. If you want mining ops to be defended better, kindly DEFEND THEM BETTER, don't just SAY you will then give the gank-happy folks out there more targets to salivate over.
Cade Windstalker
#207 - 2016-10-18 21:30:26 UTC
Jenna Kyriel wrote:
4 medium and 2 low slots.

Is meant to do industry.

Okay look, this thing will be suicide ganked. Easily. Often. It needs far better options for defenses than this, I'd say 4/4/5 at the very least, because if anything will be coming for your minion ops, a pack if kids with disposable alts in Alpha-fit T1 dessies will, and that 'fight' will be over in 10 seconds of less and CONCORD won't save you. If you want mining ops to be defended better, kindly DEFEND THEM BETTER, don't just SAY you will then give the gank-happy folks out there more targets to salivate over.


Why does it need 3 more low slots to tank well enough? It's going to shield tank, not strap Bulkheads into every available low that doesn't have a DCU 2, and if you'll recall from the discussion about Command Bursts the co-procs are turning into Rigs.

Besides which, if you're in High Sec this thing is probably a stepping stone at best in most cases, and you'll be upgrading to an Orca, which would require a few hundred "Kids in Alpha-fit T1 Dessies" to gank.

Cyclone Organic wrote:
I would strongly recommend that it is necessary to lower the skill requirement for porpoise.

Currently It is just a cheaper alternative to Orca with reasonable deduction of bonus effect. But I personally don't see it make too much sense. Just thinking about that, you are leading a mining fleet, your team members want to have a better bonus. And you are making suggestion or even decision of the choice between Orca and porpoise. You will tell them these two ships have the same skill requirements. So the only difference is the price-benefit comparison. I personally believe it is a good idea to raise some money by all team members to have an Orca because of its better performance in the long run. An Orca is not really too expensive for a corporation. For example, for a tiny mining corp with 5 high sec miners who plays about 4 hours per day (probably underestimated), on Plagioclase, they can make a profit around 6 m ISK per 30 minutes- person * 5 person * 2 * 24 = 1440000000 ISK per day.

Therefore, I would like to see it also serves as the term of entry-level skill for mining leadership.

How about remove the requirement of Industrial Command ship and put it down to ORE industry ship? Then players will have a step-by-step progression line.


So, here's my take on this thing. It's cheaper, it's faster, and it can enter C1 Wormholes. You won't use it in High Sec except for a few niche cases. What this thing is for is Newbie's First Low/Null Mining Op and for supporting mining expeditions into Wormholes.

It's faster, so it can escape more easily than an Orca, and it has a decent ore bay so it can haul stuff back. It also brings RR to the table, which makes it, or a pair, decent support for a small fleet of Skiffs.

As for the skills issue, it's not much of a train to Industrial Command Ships compared to Ore Industrial. The biggest hurdle is probably Mining Director which you need to boost a fleet anyways. Other than that it's Spaceship Command and Ore Industrial to 3, plus the cost of the book, none of which is significant.
Penance Toralen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#208 - 2016-10-18 21:56:19 UTC
Jenna Kyriel wrote:
4 medium and 2 low slots.

Is meant to do industry.

Okay look, this thing will be suicide ganked. Easily. Often. It needs far better options for defenses than this, I'd say 4/4/5 at the very least, because if anything will be coming for your minion ops, a pack if kids with disposable alts in Alpha-fit T1 dessies will, and that 'fight' will be over in 10 seconds of less and CONCORD won't save you. If you want mining ops to be defended better, kindly DEFEND THEM BETTER, don't just SAY you will then give the gank-happy folks out there more targets to salivate over.


It is awkward since it is not yet on Sisi, So far the porpoise has similar CPU and grid to the caldari cruisers. LSE and three shield resists to suit would be a good start. Plus a DCU2. The trade-off of drone rigs vs shield rigs is intended. But it should manage at least 20k plus eHP.

Then consider this. If you are sharing a belt with another booster, be it an Orca or Porpoise. Then start a dialogue. They both should have Remote Shield Boosters fitted. They cover each other with RR. I have not idea if a LRSB will fit.

I have yet to see an answer to question about access to the Micro Jump Drive for the Porpoise. It's the "get of bumping jail card".
Isler Twy'Lar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2016-10-20 17:06:33 UTC
Cyclone Organic wrote:
I would strongly recommend that it is necessary to lower the skill requirement for porpoise.

Currently It is just a cheaper alternative to Orca with reasonable deduction of bonus effect. But I personally don't see it make too much sense. Just thinking about that, you are leading a mining fleet, your team members want to have a better bonus. And you are making suggestion or even decision of the choice between Orca and porpoise. You will tell them these two ships have the same skill requirements. So the only difference is the price-benefit comparison. I personally believe it is a good idea to raise some money by all team members to have an Orca because of its better performance in the long run. An Orca is not really too expensive for a corporation. For example, for a tiny mining corp with 5 high sec miners who plays about 4 hours per day (probably underestimated), on Plagioclase, they can make a profit around 6 m ISK per 30 minutes- person * 5 person * 2 * 24 = 1440000000 ISK per day.

Therefore, I would like to see it also serves as the term of entry-level skill for mining leadership.

How about remove the requirement of Industrial Command ship and put it down to ORE industry ship? Then players will have a step-by-step progression line.


I think the benefit of the Porpoise is that it's less expensive than an Orca. So you can fly it somewhere other than Highsec without fear of losing as much isk.
Je'ron
The Happy Shooters
#210 - 2016-10-20 22:55:11 UTC
Apparently CCP is still not sure what to make off this ship. On Sisi you can find it on the market under
Ships /Captial ships /Capital Industrial Ships / ORE.

Very strange. If one would consider it a sub cap Command ship, it should be a T2 and place it as
Ships / Industrial ships /Advanced Industrial ships /Command ships / ORE
RainReaper
RRN Industries
#211 - 2016-10-20 22:58:12 UTC
Je'ron wrote:
Apparently CCP is still not sure what to make off this ship. On Sisi you can find it on the market under
Ships /Captial ships /Capital Industrial Ships / ORE.

Very strange. If one would consider it a sub cap Command ship, it should be a T2 and place it as
Ships / Industrial ships /Advanced Industrial ships /Command ships / ORE

they ahvent even started developing its stats yet dude. it litteraly ahve the same stats and slot layout as the Noctis. hopefully next week they will start puting in all of the mining command ship changes. but until then we wait lol
Cade Windstalker
#212 - 2016-10-21 02:53:09 UTC
Je'ron wrote:
Apparently CCP is still not sure what to make off this ship. On Sisi you can find it on the market under
Ships /Captial ships /Capital Industrial Ships / ORE.

Very strange. If one would consider it a sub cap Command ship, it should be a T2 and place it as
Ships / Industrial ships /Advanced Industrial ships /Command ships / ORE


It's a T1 hull though, and doesn't require the Command Ships skill.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#213 - 2016-10-21 07:38:20 UTC
What I see so far is a Miasmos with tractor beams, RR and long survey scanner range. I can stow it in the SMB of the orca, haul it out to survey the field, tag the rocks, then switch to Skiff and mine. Then when the orca starts to fill the rest of the fleet keeps doing what they're doing, and I haul ore back to base with the Porpoise. It won't be quite as efficient as the Miasmos (slower warp speed, higher align time) but it brings other abilities to the table.

It would be really awesome if some of the ORE command ships could have skirmish warfare instead of shield boosts. But that's just my skittish nature speaking :D

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Cade Windstalker
#214 - 2016-10-21 13:59:29 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
What I see so far is a Miasmos with tractor beams, RR and long survey scanner range. I can stow it in the SMB of the orca, haul it out to survey the field, tag the rocks, then switch to Skiff and mine. Then when the orca starts to fill the rest of the fleet keeps doing what they're doing, and I haul ore back to base with the Porpoise. It won't be quite as efficient as the Miasmos (slower warp speed, higher align time) but it brings other abilities to the table.

It would be really awesome if some of the ORE command ships could have skirmish warfare instead of shield boosts. But that's just my skittish nature speaking :D


That's actually a thought, it'd be pretty neat if the Porpoise got a bonus to Shield and Skirmish so it still has the potential to see some use as something other than a wormhole booster or a poor man's Orca.
Cyclone Organic
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#215 - 2016-10-21 18:30:35 UTC
Isler Twy'Lar wrote:


I think the benefit of the Porpoise is that it's less expensive than an Orca. So you can fly it somewhere other than Highsec without fear of losing as much isk.


It might be a good point. And what I am talking about is that CCP should design a similar progression line of industrial command burst as any other types of roles, like mining barges vs exhumers, T1 logistics cruiser vs T2 specialized logistics ship and capital Force Auxiliary class. This way, a step-by-step skill progression, can provide a strong positive reinforcement for players who want to develop a career in industrial leadership.
Goati
Doomheim
#216 - 2016-10-22 10:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Goati
Drake is a better mining gang boost ship than the Porpoise. Why? Because Drake and all other BC's get a 50% range bonus to command bursts, which means a Drake can give 43km radius boosts, but a Porpoise only gives 29km radius boosts.

Does anyone else find it stupid that Porpoise does not get the 50% bonus to command burst range, that all other command burst vessels get? (apart from the destroyer)

Even T1 battlecruisers get the 50% command burst range bonus, even though they can only fit 1 command burst.

The Porpoise is supposed to be equivalent to a battlecruiser, is primarily a command booster (can fit 2x command bursts) and yet it does not gain the 50% bonus to command burst range.

This ruins the Porpoise for me, people simply won't use the porpoise for bursts if the max burst range is going to be much smaller than the size of a belt. (which it is without the 50% range bonus).

Command ships give an even bigger radius, but this is about the Porpoise not receiving battlecruiser range bonus to bursts, even though it direly needs it, and it's a command battlecruiser after all - why wouldn't it receive the 50% range bonus that all battlecruisers receive?
marly cortez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#217 - 2016-10-22 15:02:11 UTC
Looking at the stats for this ship the only comment that comes to mind is 'Large Stationary Target'.

Humanity is the thin veneer that remains after you remove the baffled chimp.
Isler Twy'Lar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#218 - 2016-10-23 20:26:35 UTC
Penance Toralen wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
I feel like I'm already toeing the boundary of candid feedback and toxic, so I'll stop here at what I hope will be seen as a suggestion.

Penance you have a point about people who will accept what's given to them. I guess that includes me in this case. I enjoy boosting for the RP and that includes mining.


The looming thing absent from these threads are actual miners. Who are largely not engaged at this level of the game. QQP Quant called them "traditionalists" in his 2014 Fanfest Presentation. Easily evident from comments of discovery by miners after the fact that the Hulk lost a mining strip. A mere handful come to comment post update. A tiny fraction of a real number of miners. Those that have shrugged their shoulders at the update, rolled up their sleeves and undocked in a new ship.To an activity that remains unchanged.

It would have been great to see a new hull for the Porpoise. The Attack Battlecruiser designs were sourced from a Deviant Art competition. Prehaps sometime in the future this is possible.

All said, I have not decided whether I will get the BPO or just merely just have a hull- but I will have one in the hanger regardless.

It would be nice to have an official/sanctioned mass test on Sisi with Endurances and Porpoises in Shattered.


I am a miner and am chomping at the bit to get into the test server and try it out. I wish they would get it on there.
Cade Windstalker
#219 - 2016-10-24 11:12:22 UTC
Goati wrote:
Drake is a better mining gang boost ship than the Porpoise. Why? Because Drake and all other BC's get a 50% range bonus to command bursts, which means a Drake can give 43km radius boosts, but a Porpoise only gives 29km radius boosts.

Does anyone else find it stupid that Porpoise does not get the 50% bonus to command burst range, that all other command burst vessels get? (apart from the destroyer)

Even T1 battlecruisers get the 50% command burst range bonus, even though they can only fit 1 command burst.

The Porpoise is supposed to be equivalent to a battlecruiser, is primarily a command booster (can fit 2x command bursts) and yet it does not gain the 50% bonus to command burst range.

This ruins the Porpoise for me, people simply won't use the porpoise for bursts if the max burst range is going to be much smaller than the size of a belt. (which it is without the 50% range bonus).

Command ships give an even bigger radius, but this is about the Porpoise not receiving battlecruiser range bonus to bursts, even though it direly needs it, and it's a command battlecruiser after all - why wouldn't it receive the 50% range bonus that all battlecruisers receive?


This really shouldn't be a breaking thing for you or anyone else, you can easily position the Porpoise centrally so that you can hit all of your mining ships while they stay in range of their rocks on the vast majority of belts. For the ones where that doesn't work you should probably be bringing an Orca anyways.

I'll agree that it makes a bit of sense for the Porpoise to have the range bonus, but it also makes sense for there to be a progression in range from the Porpoise up through to the Rorqual, since the ability to spread the fleet out more makes them less vulnerable to ganks.
Goati
Doomheim
#220 - 2016-10-24 12:21:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Goati
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Goati wrote:
Drake is a better mining gang boost ship than the Porpoise. Why? Because Drake and all other BC's get a 50% range bonus to command bursts, which means a Drake can give 43km radius boosts, but a Porpoise only gives 29km radius boosts.

Does anyone else find it stupid that Porpoise does not get the 50% bonus to command burst range, that all other command burst vessels get? (apart from the destroyer)

Even T1 battlecruisers get the 50% command burst range bonus, even though they can only fit 1 command burst.

The Porpoise is supposed to be equivalent to a battlecruiser, is primarily a command booster (can fit 2x command bursts) and yet it does not gain the 50% bonus to command burst range.

This ruins the Porpoise for me, people simply won't use the porpoise for bursts if the max burst range is going to be much smaller than the size of a belt. (which it is without the 50% range bonus).

Command ships give an even bigger radius, but this is about the Porpoise not receiving battlecruiser range bonus to bursts, even though it direly needs it, and it's a command battlecruiser after all - why wouldn't it receive the 50% range bonus that all battlecruisers receive?


This really shouldn't be a breaking thing for you or anyone else, you can easily position the Porpoise centrally so that you can hit all of your mining ships while they stay in range of their rocks on the vast majority of belts. For the ones where that doesn't work you should probably be bringing an Orca anyways.

I'll agree that it makes a bit of sense for the Porpoise to have the range bonus, but it also makes sense for there to be a progression in range from the Porpoise up through to the Rorqual, since the ability to spread the fleet out more makes them less vulnerable to ganks.


If there should be progression as you say, then the progression should be the same as it is with battlecruisers to command ships. Battlecruisers get 50% burst range bonus, and command ships gets 100% burst range bonus. The Orca could get a boost to be above 50% if need be.

The Porpoise should get the 50% range bonus, as it is a battlecruiser after all - it's very stupid for an 'industrial command battlecruiser' to not get a 50% burst range bonus, when the Drake for example, a combat battlecruiser not even specialised in bursts, does get the 50% range bonus. In fact, this is completely ridicluous.

CCP, why does a 'mining command ship' specialised in command bursts not receive the 50% range to bursts, when a combat battlecruiser, not even specialised in bursts, does receive a 50% range bonus?