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New Dev Blog: CSM December summit – meeting minutes are out

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Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#261 - 2012-01-18 11:05:32 UTC
Finaly.

Interesting read.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#262 - 2012-01-18 11:09:07 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Warp scrambling/Disrupting can easily be compensated for by giving the supers a bonus to warp strength, like +100. Since the focused point of a HIC is -100, this would be great. A single HIC could still point a super/titan. Only damps would require fancy change or additional thought. You can't just up the scan res or locking range of its sensors. Because then an undamped ship would pwn.


But if an undamped super capital pwns, doesn't that increase the incentive for fleets to have dampers?

So to field a titan, you'll need remote boosters, tracking links, logistics, and the specialised ships needed to take out or neutralise the enemy dampers, enemy remote boosters, enemy tracking links, and then the enemy fleet's EWAR and anti-EWAR.

Of course, I'd also advocate removing EWAR immunity and restrictions on using doomsdays against sub caps (if that battleship is standing still, a doomsday will have some effect), and restrictions on remote boosting of super caps. Titans should be receiving tracking, targeting range, locking speed and optimal range boosts from as many support ships as possible. Titans without that support should expect to be able to hit nothing except for other titans.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Gods Messenger
#263 - 2012-01-18 11:28:52 UTC
Microtransaction Microsummit

Boooooo!

Also, DARIUS III for president!
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#264 - 2012-01-18 11:36:41 UTC
Nice summit, thanks for the read.

What hasn't been mentioned, but was a 'hot topic' some months ago (shortly before the monoclegate) is something Gogela already mentioned earlier - Projection of Power.
Thus I'm also asking what the status is on Nullsec design goals feedback: Movement and logistics this one? Where is CCP with that?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#265 - 2012-01-18 11:39:25 UTC
Tres, that was a Greyscale topic. No doubt logistics will be "adjusted" by removing star gates Blink

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Louis Vitton
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#266 - 2012-01-18 11:52:29 UTC
I believe that yes there needs to be a fix for the capitals which can travel fit and move freely in low sec but this should not be applied to Jump freighters at all as they can not do this. Adding this spool up timer for a JF makes it a sitting very expensive duck. It means that Jump Freighters can be camped in on low sec stations by 1 battleship.

I think this would cause major economical issues within Eve as the logistics would stop or at least slow down greatly to low and null sec's.

For all capital jump drive capable ships other then Jump freighters i support this idea of a spool up timer but not for Jump Freighters.
Ang Min
CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
#267 - 2012-01-18 11:57:55 UTC
"It must be stated that contrary to public perception, it is in CCP’s interest to have the PLEX prices low (as
opposed to high) because of the number of users using that subscription method. There is no guarantee that
those users will switch over to other methods could they not afford PLEX with ISK. Nor is it in CCP’s interest that
users have to grind more in order to maintain their subscription method should the price of PLEX go up..."

Of course, the counter to this is that if PLEX prices are too low, then people will be less likely to spend RL money for them (and may be more likely to go the illegal money-for-ISK route instead).

This is indeed a delicate balance, and it's understandable that CCP is worried about it (market manipulations, extreme fluctuations, etc.). In fact, I was surprised that PLEXs were tossed in with the general economy to begin with...seems to me they should either have a fixed price or a price that's tied to a consumer index or something...
Kronarn
Dirty Old Bastards
Random Violence.
#268 - 2012-01-18 12:33:18 UTC
"The CSM suggested that supercarriers be allowed to dock in outposts which have an appropriate upgrade. The
CSM noted it that it did not wish Titans to ever be able to dock, but that supercarriers were now less powerful
and more common and should thus be treated more as regular ships rather than special snowflakes."

So this is a nice idea, but it should be limited to one SC per player otherwise people will be able to stockpile these like no other, at least in CSAA's we are able to kill them, it would lead to mass production of SC's which would be nice and safe inside a station out of harms way!
Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#269 - 2012-01-18 12:37:32 UTC
I would like to point devs browsing for feedback to this thread in the War and Tactics forum reacting specifically to the Faction War section of the minutes. Given that many comments would be lost in this general feedback thread, I thought it better to have a focused discussion in the forum which encompasses FW topics.
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#270 - 2012-01-18 12:46:25 UTC
Ang Min wrote:
"It must be stated that contrary to public perception, it is in CCP’s interest to have the PLEX prices low (as
opposed to high) because of the number of users using that subscription method. There is no guarantee that
those users will switch over to other methods could they not afford PLEX with ISK. Nor is it in CCP’s interest that
users have to grind more in order to maintain their subscription method should the price of PLEX go up..."

Of course, the counter to this is that if PLEX prices are too low, then people will be less likely to spend RL money for them (and may be more likely to go the illegal money-for-ISK route instead).

This is indeed a delicate balance, and it's understandable that CCP is worried about it (market manipulations, extreme fluctuations, etc.). In fact, I was surprised that PLEXs were tossed in with the general economy to begin with...seems to me they should either have a fixed price or a price that's tied to a consumer index or something...

If people don't throw money at PLEX because they don't have enough RL moniez to begin with and PLEX ingame become more expensive, then who is to blame? And why should CCP be exempt from a slowing down of RL economies - less subscribers?

The only thing CCP should worry about is the influence of botting accounts being fuelled by PLEX and taking away this alley to stay subscribed from legitimate players (they feel robbed, and rightfully so). Though, if CCP detects them right after they fuelled their account it can dispose of those liabilities.. nice PLEX sink Twisted

As for price/market manipulations of PLEX vs isk.. if some kind of game-mechanic allows single/groups of players to generate way more isk than others and converting that into PLEX, i'd suggest CCP checks out those income generating mechanics instead of putting the cart before the horse.
Ang Min
CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
#271 - 2012-01-18 12:50:40 UTC
Louis Vitton wrote:
I believe that yes there needs to be a fix for the capitals which can travel fit and move freely in low sec but this should not be applied to Jump freighters at all as they can not do this. Adding this spool up timer for a JF makes it a sitting very expensive duck. It means that Jump Freighters can be camped in on low sec stations by 1 battleship.

I think this would cause major economical issues within Eve as the logistics would stop or at least slow down greatly to low and null sec's.

For all capital jump drive capable ships other then Jump freighters i support this idea of a spool up timer but not for Jump Freighters.

Agreed! Leave Jump Freighters alone...and Rorquals too for that matter. This timer, if implemented, should only be for offensive cap ship fleets.

Instead of a "spool up timer", which implies you'd have to wait 60 seconds any time you wanted to jump (even if you're leaving from a POS or station), maybe a "jump drive reactivation delay" is better. That way, if you just jumped into a system, you'd have to wait 60 seconds before you could jump to the next. But once the timer expires, then you can jump instantly at any time. (This would also spare the poor cyno pilot from having to hang out for the duration of the spool up.) Smile
Kwashi
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2012-01-18 13:21:17 UTC
Glad to see our wormspace-dweller CSM rep standing up against the horrible idea of allowing stargate-type travel into W systems.

In wormspace an attacking force already has the advantage of nigh-on complete surprise. Giving the attacker a numbers and hardware advantage too would make system defense pretty unworkable.

As it stands the vast majority of W systems are held by tiny organizations whose installations are protected by annoyance and apathy alone; remove these barriers and those towers would fall like dominoes.
Versoth
Bastards at the Hole
#273 - 2012-01-18 13:23:25 UTC
Sylthi wrote:
So....... It has been confirmed there will be no NEW content for 2012, only rehashed old stuff that they SHOULD have gotten right the first time. Check.

Hillmar has now made it his OFFICIAL job to do NOTHING constructive or anything even close to resembling actual WORK on the project that pays his (certainly) ludicrous salary. Double check. (Why doesn't he just go ahead and resign? OH, right, sorry, forgot, he lovvulles the FREE MONEY!!! Triple check.)

After all the pain, trouble, taking away from the REAL Eve, millions of dollars, and massive hurt feelings on all sides, Incarna has been abandoned. (That is what "backburner" MEANS in developer speak people.) Wow. Way to shoot yourself in the foot on that one CCP. People give you HELL about what kind of product you AREN'T providing them, and your response is to say: "Fine. You don't get ANYTHING then if you won't be HONORED to provide us with fellatio when demanded." Again, wow. Nice. Way to be real adult about this.

I honestly didn't think CCP could screw up MORE than it already has. But, once again, they did.

I mean, WTF guys. You're an MMO, and you just PROUDLY announced: "No new content for at LEAST a year." This on TOP of what you ALREADY haven't delivered or, worse yet, have already screwed up beyond all recognition. And, the CSM just applauded you guys for it; and all was smiles and giggles up in Iceland. Are you guys ALL really that detached from reality? Do NONE of you see where this is OBVIOUSLY going?

"No new content for at least a year" are the words and kiss of DEATH in MMO-land for cripes sake!!! Big new SCI-Fi titles VERY RECENTLY came out. You don't think they won't accept your PREVIOUS customers with open arms? CCP has ALWAYS succeeded in spite of itself, largely, because there was no real competition in it's genre. Got news for you CCP: THAT IS CHANGING; FAST. None of your competition has gotten "it" exactly right yet. But, it's GOING to happen. And when it does, you'll have NOTHING to respond with. Part of me thinks you actually KNOW that; and are now simply in the mode of delaying the inevitable as long as possible.

Yeah. I guess I am going to have to face facts that after 8 years I have to find a new hobby. Time to let my accounts expire I guess. Don't want to. I really don't. But, its not like news like this from CCP and the CSM is leaving me many realistic options. I mean, there is no hope coming right from the top all the way down "to the floor" at CCP. And the CSM is just cheering them along all the way. And NO, no one can have my stuff; I'd rather set it all on fire.

What complete and utter betrayal CCP; just when I thought you could sink no lower.

Quadruple check, out.



Can I have your stuff?
Siiee
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#274 - 2012-01-18 13:41:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Siiee
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
In order to support predators, you need prey. In order to support prey, you need abundant food for them to graze upon, enough that the occasional loss to predation is acceptable..


This just doesn't work. If I wanted to shoot at an endless stream of squishy risk-averse targets I would suicide gank stuff in highsec.

Lowsec doesn't need more defenseless PvE targets, it needs more reasons for predators to go there to hunt other predators. Requiring one group of players to go play cannon fodder for another is just.. terrible, for both sides of the equation.

Two step wrote:

It took us (and several other entities) a long time to build up our wormholes. It should also take a long time and dedication for someone else to tear them down....

The ability to move unlimited mass through a wormhole turns w-space into a slightly different version of nullsec, and would result in large blobs dominating, which nobody wants.


This. The WH mass thing is just pants on head stupid. Because obviously the answer we need here is to let more blobs in.

WH residents are currently the purest form of people actually living in and developing their space we have. It's difficult to assault a WH home system precisely because they've put time and effort into actually being there. This should be a model for other areas of space, rather than the other way around.

And NPC null stations... really?
Liranan
H A V O C Industrial
Fraternity.
#275 - 2012-01-18 13:54:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Liranan
Versoth wrote:
Can I have your stuff?


This stopped being funny when tens of thousands of accounts were cancelled over the MT debacle and CCP admitted to being in dire straights.

http://www.youtube.com/user/zeitgeistmovie?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/23/Lio3n66bwOo This shit's got to go - Jacque Fresco
Numance
feythabolis esoteria paragon period basis markets
#276 - 2012-01-18 13:56:03 UTC
yes for outpost dustruction would (will) be awesome
but you can't "destroy" stuff in it, would make 0.0 much less attractive (and we dont need that...) and would turn many player off the game or returning players after some break.... disapointed

the right (and easy) implementation is the one given by Michus Danether earlier in this thread

1. Destructible stations
- When a station becomes fully and finally vulnerable, it can be conquered or blown up. If conquered, business as usual, if blown up the station would enter a 'wrecked' state, having no features or function of an outpost.

Every pod pilot and ship inside would remain there, with pilots capable of switching in and out of ships as desired before undocking. After undocking they cannot redock, however they can eject ships that they own from the outpost just like they can at a POS, and scoop their assets from the outpost wreck just like from a POS. The outpost wreck would be indestructible and a new outpost can be constructed in the system at the same planet or another planet.

This solves the problem of asset relocation and pod-pilot moving while still allowing outposts to be permanently destroyed. If an outpost is destroyed while you have a jumpclone in it... I guess it would be destroyed? That's not so bad really. One clone. It could be stored too I guess, but... that's up to CCP. Deathclones would be relocated to a starting NPC station in empire the moment the outpost dies, but you could always change your deathclone to a new station as well.

it would furthemore introduce new "mini games" "gameplay" "profession"

Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#277 - 2012-01-18 14:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Sizeof Void wrote:
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
... lots of Goonswarm/TEST propaganda...

Yawn... difficult to respond to yet more Goon propaganda, as if the CSM isn't already loaded with it.

maybe my points got lost amidst what you call propaganda but they are

(a) the idea of 0.0 as "end-game" is incredibly stupid and mostly used as an excuse to steer newbies away from 0.0; it should be obvious to every player that the whole "character creation, leveling/gearing, endgame" model just doesn't apply to EVE. Deriding high-sec as the "newbie environment" of EVE is equally stupid.

(b) the best way to prevent people from becoming disgruntled players who quit the game is to get them into a community where they are welcomed, valued and taught as soon as possible - best within their first few days in EVE.
Currently 0.0 alliances excel at providing these environments and can - due to economies of scale - offer a new player experience that smaller entities cannot match.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#278 - 2012-01-18 14:17:25 UTC
mkint wrote:
Moatra wrote:
Quote:
* CCP Dr.EyjoG pointed out that all of the discussions and comments were assuming that the EVE skill
point system was in itself correct. He wondered if it might be fruitful to question this assumption.



In the meeting notes, CCP mentioned the possibility that the current Skill system might not be as necessary a feature as has always been assumed. I wholeheartedly agree with this assessment.

I have found that the times when I am most likely to get bored with EvE and deactivate my subscription are those times when I find a new aspect of the game that I want to play, but will take months to skill for. I don't mind paying for the skill books to do something, but waiting for skills is very passive and unsatisfying.

This is especially true when expecting new players to want to stay in EvE. Real life waiting to play (most aspects of a game) is not a feature, nor a reward. Ugh

The SP system rewards loyalty (which is good).

Asking for SP reimbursements is being a greedy little bastard who doesn't want to be held responsible for the consequences of the decisions they made. EVE has no room for those people, and they need to GTFO. Including the CSM bastards clamoring for more gimme's.


Like

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#279 - 2012-01-18 14:29:19 UTC
Sounds like a lot of very important things have been debated and CCP really is working towards a better game in all aspects...
Here is my take on the things I care most about:

CSM election : As most CSM members represent large amount of players they deserve a place in the council, but whatever rules are made I hope they will guarantee a CSM made up from a DIVERSITY of players.

Loyalty Program sounds amazing. Bittervets like myself would very much appreciate being appreciated. Plz make sure veteran status cannot be bought with the purchase of a character and keep an eye on illegal account transfers. How about making it a 2 or 3 step program. I'd start the program at about 2-3 years when CCP says most players start losing interest and another step at 5-7 years. Maybe a step in between.
Also I think breaks in subscription should not be a deal breaker as long it has been for more than 6 months (I know many army people playing when they can).

Super Capitals : XL guns should simply have their tracking put to 1/3 of what they are. EAF's as capital counters sounds like a desperate attempt bound to fail. Removing immune to Ewar alltogether will make it too easy to criple their lock range and lock speed while swamping them with ecm drones, however removing immunity to being scrambled and replaced with a Warp Core strength of 20 on moms and 50 on titans sounds pretty cool. Using supers to tackle super are mehh for a scissor, paper, rock concept and if HIC's die too fast just allow them to receive remote repairs...
Spooling up jump drives will be nice to avoid drive-by hits and emergency insta-exit maneuvers, however plz make sure it will at the same time be possible actually getting your capitals on field before a cynoship has been primaried.

Docking should be allowed for supers, but not with the current docking mechanics. It should be impossible to use capitals in station games but instead have docking mechanics for capitals to follow the same principles as logging off.
I hope a rewrite of crimflag is coming soon as neutral reps and boosters are really hindering fun and honest empire wars.

Incursions are great, but damn those guys can make a fortune with a little organization behind them...
Looking into isk/LP rewards would be higly recommended

Drone alloy changes sounds very thoughtfull and would likely be for the best. I would keep some alloys dropping as loot containing hi-end minerals still, while replacing all the low-end containing alloys for a bounty.

Moons : Technetium is way too dominant because it's a strong bottleneck on ship construction. Everything to reduce the importance of these moons is welcome. Alchemy, more tech moons and a change to some tech requiring reactions are all 3 good things to look into. People will still fight for sov even without tech being so dominant.

Destructable Outposts : Good idea, however should require sov for at least a month (has to be destroyed from inside) in my opinion. Also it should only result in a station wreck requiring people to build up everything from scratch, but still containing every asset inside. Moving assets or fireselling would in my opinion have a very negative impact...

Station Services in npc nullsec would be epically gratefull. Also not being able to repair any station services for at least 12 hours after cribbling them would be nice to give roaming fleets the ability to leave a mark. Have I-hub upgrades work like station services too for small fleets to have targets... Only problem with all this is big fleets still doing the job better than a small fleet :-(

T1 frigates and cruisers + Tier 1 battlecruisers : Epic... THANK YOU!!

Drake : Sounds good, but plz look into the Hurricane too... That thing has way too much powergrid and cpu

Command Ships and T3 Cruisers : I'm VERY impressed with this solution. Plz tone down T3 cruiser resistance a little as well.

Tier 3 Battlecruisers are very successfull - pretty and fun to fly. But There are many things that need to be adjusted - Not only the Naga and Talos. The Tornados perfectly demonstrate what is wrong. I can live with these ships having the best subcap hi-slot alpha and dps available, half the signature as other battlecruisers, better sensor strength and longer targeting range. But I cannot tolerate these ships being faster than other battlecrusier and even most Heavy Assault Ships while at the same time having a superior improved scan resolution making them react faster than similar classes towards smaller ships where they are designed to combat larger and heavier classes. Plz adjust the velocity and scan resolution to reflect a battlecruiser hull and perhaps look into removing at least 100PG from the Tornado and Naga as they can with a few rigs alone fit the highest tier long range weapons, plenty shield extenders and in some fits use oversized afterburners with good results... I want tier 3 ships to be pretty, functional and effecient but I don't want them to be dominating so much you cannot counter them effectively even with superior numbers of other battlecruisers, tacklers and recons.

Nosferatu : It would be lovely for a Nosferatu to drain the same amount of cap from a target it cost to run it with maxed skills even when target has less cap than yourself, and at full effeciency when target has more cap than you.

Thx for working on improving Eve Online guys...

Pinky Denmark
Zedah Zoid
Good Eats
#280 - 2012-01-18 14:40:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Zedah Zoid
Two step wrote:
Some sort of wormhole stabilizer would just result in groups like AHARM wiping out *all* of the smaller folks living in w-space. Right now, doing that would take a lot of time and effort, but if we could push 50 BSs through every hole, it would be easy. The ability to move unlimited mass through a wormhole turns w-space into a slightly different version of nullsec, and would result in large blobs dominating, which nobody wants.


Thanks so much for pointing this out. This WH stabilizer(either mass or time) idea is terrible and while it might result in a few really big, really glorious life and death fights amongst the big dogs, it would make smaller corps positions completely indefensible. A lot of what makes wormhole space unique is the nature of the wormholes themselves. Not everything must bend to the will of the capsuleer. So no modules to control the wormholes and no modules to turn on local or anything stupid. Just leave space alone and fight and die as her random graces dictate to you.