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[November] Orca Changes

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#241 - 2016-10-19 09:46:11 UTC
Jin Kugu wrote:
I guess CCP is just going to ignore all the feedback that the orca will be broken in high sec.

1. It needs to lose way more hull ehp
2. the lower mass will be interesting, 2500 m/s orcas when bumped will be used for some crazy shenanigans
3. dedicated bays are very strong, maybe not too strong on the orca, because it removes the need to fit cargo expanders and the disadvantages that come with that

1. Why? There is no reason to reduce it further,especially when you consider it will be stuck on grid.
What reasoning goes with your statement? Why does it need to have hull reduced?

2. It may but I'm pretty sure it won't last, not many players will keep doing something that has no reward at all. So unless Orca pilots decide to pay ransom to bumpers, it will die a natural death pretty fast.
The perfect counter to bumpers is, ignore them, they'll give up eventually. They are no more than a small nuisance, unless you start to pay them, then they will never go away..
If anything CCP should come up with a way to provide limited engagements between bumping victims and bumpers.

3. Without cargo expanders and cargo rigs - The extra space is less than 40K - Or around 3 or 4 minutes longer to fill it than current.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Kosa DeGrey
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#242 - 2016-10-19 11:19:32 UTC
дроны это хорошо но пару буровых лазеров не помешало бы
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#243 - 2016-10-19 13:28:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Jin Kugu wrote:
I guess CCP is just going to ignore all the feedback that the orca will be broken in high sec.

1. It needs to lose way more hull ehp
2. the lower mass will be interesting, 2500 m/s orcas when bumped will be used for some crazy shenanigans
3. dedicated bays are very strong, maybe not too strong on the orca, because it removes the need to fit cargo expanders and the disadvantages that come with that



1. The EHP is for out of empire use since will be on belts now.. they don't have concord. Empire just gets a nice bene from that.

2. If the bumpers carry out their threats of bump I predict it will speed up ccp making the idea of 3 minute rule reality. It won't help on belt mining. It will however offset players petitioning when they just want to gtfo and an hour plus later they are still stuck

Petition start

Hey ccp.. I was bumped starting at 2200. Tried to break free of if for an hour and half, Gave up went to bed and said what happens happens. And you know what...I woke up 0600 checked eve for giggles and grins and they were still bumping me. When fishing in wow is more productive to do man you all are really on the right track to a great game.

Fix this please.

Petition End


I have no issues with limited bumping. Seen it deny a few caps whose cyno just a bit too far from slipping into shield/dock range. Thing is...you or your fleet mate bumped the carrier to deny the easy out, dictor and dps hauling ass to lock and drop. Bump with the intent to have backup show up in a timely manner and kill the ship properly...by all means.

Bump because this thrills them for hours and not even going to shoot the damn thing...that is just tarded really. I know some call it emergent game play. Burn Jita, hulkageddon, goon ice interdictions years back....thats emergent game play. Bumping for hours with no plans to commit to a kill....is not emergent. Its a silent cry for help of some kind. Or they need to get laid really really bad.

3. the cargo fills up fast. for mining or even hauling. Only bypass is with ships is to assemble and use the fleet hangar. Which can also fill up fast. Also you always get the people who don't tank their haulers. They will run the expanders no DCU or bulkhead.
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#244 - 2016-10-19 15:29:24 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:


2. If the bumpers carry out their threats of bump I predict it will speed up ccp making the idea of 3 minute rule reality. It won't help on belt mining. It will however offset players petitioning when they just want to gtfo and an hour plus later they are still stuck

Petition start

Hey ccp.. I was bumped starting at 2200. Tried to break free of if for an hour and half, Gave up went to bed and said what happens happens. And you know what...I woke up 0600 checked eve for giggles and grins and they were still bumping me. When fishing in wow is more productive to do man you all are really on the right track to a great game.

Fix this please.

Petition End


I have no issues with limited bumping. Seen it deny a few caps whose cyno just a bit too far from slipping into shield/dock range. Thing is...you or your fleet mate bumped the carrier to deny the easy out, dictor and dps hauling ass to lock and drop. Bump with the intent to have backup show up in a timely manner and kill the ship properly...by all means.

Bump because this thrills them for hours and not even going to shoot the damn thing...that is just tarded really. I know some call it emergent game play. Burn Jita, hulkageddon, goon ice interdictions years back....thats emergent game play. Bumping for hours with no plans to commit to a kill....is not emergent. Its a silent cry for help of some kind. Or they need to get laid really really bad.



The way bumping Orcas will work is much like the old miner bumping before the rise of CODE.

After checking to see if the Orca pilot and his flock of minions have mining permits I will bump any non-compliant Orca away from the ice field. Once he's some 100-200 km away I will return to the ice field. If he attempts to slowboat back I will wait until he's getting close enough to start boosting again and I will bump him back to 100-200km.

If he chooses to warp away and warp back into the fleet I will await his return and then immediately bump him back to the aforementioned 100-200km. At all times I will remind him of his obligation to follow the Code and purchase a mining permit. Results on this are mixed as some miners suppose they have "honor!" and "principles!" and would rather suffer the complete shutdown of their boosting or mining than pay the low, never changed, 10 million ISK. These I will keep bumping as long as I choose. The introduction of the three minute "get out jail free" card won't affect my tactics.

In 2012/2013 before ganking became the main weapon of the New Order I often would bump a particular miner for as long as it took for either him to buy the permit, or give up and dock. I'm a little rusty now as I've spent the intervening years ganking miners but I look forward to dusting off the old Invincible Stabber FI and returning to bumping. Of course, my Stabber does fit a scanning module and I have the CODE. freighter ganking fleet on the batphone so they might come a callin'.

All this aside, bumping Orcas will be a reasonable response to a change in highsec mining abilities. You may consider it a reflection of some real life issue we bumpers have but it makes sense in terms of our stated goals for highsec. I like a kill mail as much as the next guy but I'm also fine with forcing another player to comply with my will in whatever method I have available. Bumping Orcas WILL be a thing.

Petitions away!

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com
Sean Roach
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2016-10-19 19:05:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sean Roach
I think the following changes are needed, as a block.

  • Ships bumping into one another should do damage inversely proportional to their proportional mass and cause a Newtonian ricochet of both ships, again inversely proportional to their proportional mass. The damage should bypass shield, but not armor. A little stabber bumping a freighter should flatten itself against the hull of that massive ship, with 100% armor and hull damage, before getting it to move by more than a minute of angle. The massive ship should get a scratch. Easily fixed by an armor repper.
  • A minigame should pop up every 1D10 mining or salvaging cycles, or drone mining/salvaging cycles, per module/drone. Something simple that functions as a CAPTCHA. An "Are you on station" check. Don't do this to combat, or things will get really hairy really fast, and there's already plenty of reason to stay on station when you're up against moving targets.
    • Possibly put a timer on the latter, so if you don't address the minigame, or shut down the strip miner/mining laser/salvager within some pre-set time frame, (say, 30 seconds), you get overheating damage to the module or hull damage to the drone.
    Choices for a minigame could be, fixing a jammed component via remote damage bypass, (similar to the hacking mechanic,) extinguishing a fire, fine-tuning a notch filter to catch the correct elements rather than the chaff, etc.


The combination would heavily nerf bumping, while addressing the supposed issue that "justifies" bumping in the first place: AFK play.


Personally, my reading of the complaints of Orca changes, by the ganker/bumpers is "It's weaker, sure, but it's not weak enough for me".
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#246 - 2016-10-20 08:50:34 UTC
Sean Roach wrote:
I think the following changes are needed, as a block.

  • Ships bumping into one another should do damage inversely proportional to their proportional mass and cause a Newtonian ricochet of both ships, again inversely proportional to their proportional mass. The damage should bypass shield, but not armor. A little stabber bumping a freighter should flatten itself against the hull of that massive ship, with 100% armor and hull damage, before getting it to move by more than a minute of angle. The massive ship should get a scratch. Easily fixed by an armor repper.
  • A minigame should pop up every 1D10 mining or salvaging cycles, or drone mining/salvaging cycles, per module/drone. Something simple that functions as a CAPTCHA. An "Are you on station" check. Don't do this to combat, or things will get really hairy really fast, and there's already plenty of reason to stay on station when you're up against moving targets.
    • Possibly put a timer on the latter, so if you don't address the minigame, or shut down the strip miner/mining laser/salvager within some pre-set time frame, (say, 30 seconds), you get overheating damage to the module or hull damage to the drone.
    Choices for a minigame could be, fixing a jammed component via remote damage bypass, (similar to the hacking mechanic,) extinguishing a fire, fine-tuning a notch filter to catch the correct elements rather than the chaff, etc.


The combination would heavily nerf bumping, while addressing the supposed issue that "justifies" bumping in the first place: AFK play.


Personally, my reading of the complaints of Orca changes, by the ganker/bumpers is "It's weaker, sure, but it's not weak enough for me".

A mini game for miners? Your joking right, you have to be because no sane person would even suggest such a thing.
If a miner wants to AFK (not as common as one might think), it is his or her right - To risk their ships and income by not paying attention.
For multi boxers (a large amount of miners) anything added to it would just be a headache, I'd rather put up with bumpers than be forced to cycle through all my miners every few minutes to do a stupid minigame. I gave up relic and data sites and Discovery is a pita - Should i be forced to give up mining too?


You want the cost of everything in Eve to go up and CCP to lose thousands of subs - Get them to add a mini game to mining.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Cade Windstalker
#247 - 2016-10-20 14:42:50 UTC
Sean Roach wrote:
I think the following changes are needed, as a block.

  • Ships bumping into one another should do damage inversely proportional to their proportional mass and cause a Newtonian ricochet of both ships, again inversely proportional to their proportional mass. The damage should bypass shield, but not armor. A little stabber bumping a freighter should flatten itself against the hull of that massive ship, with 100% armor and hull damage, before getting it to move by more than a minute of angle. The massive ship should get a scratch. Easily fixed by an armor repper.
  • A minigame should pop up every 1D10 mining or salvaging cycles, or drone mining/salvaging cycles, per module/drone. Something simple that functions as a CAPTCHA. An "Are you on station" check. Don't do this to combat, or things will get really hairy really fast, and there's already plenty of reason to stay on station when you're up against moving targets.
    • Possibly put a timer on the latter, so if you don't address the minigame, or shut down the strip miner/mining laser/salvager within some pre-set time frame, (say, 30 seconds), you get overheating damage to the module or hull damage to the drone.
    Choices for a minigame could be, fixing a jammed component via remote damage bypass, (similar to the hacking mechanic,) extinguishing a fire, fine-tuning a notch filter to catch the correct elements rather than the chaff, etc.


The combination would heavily nerf bumping, while addressing the supposed issue that "justifies" bumping in the first place: AFK play.


Personally, my reading of the complaints of Orca changes, by the ganker/bumpers is "It's weaker, sure, but it's not weak enough for me".


Neither of these is a good idea.

#1 This just doesn't work. You need speed to be a factor because otherwise cyno jumps and anything else involving large numbers of ships becomes an instant orgy of destruction. This would be funny about once, like the time CCP accidentally made Stargates destructible on Sisi, and then it would get really annoying (literally what happened with the aforementioned stargates bug).

If you include speed then you, pretty much by definition, leave open the potential for suicide ramming as a tactic. Even if you cap the potential damage at the HP level of the ship you've still made ship HP a balance parameter for ganking, which is ridiculous and easily exploited. Just figure out what the cheapest frigate you can throw a MWD and some armor plates on is and go to town, Concord can't gank you, you're already exploded.

This doesn't even touch on how bad Eve's control scheme is for preventing collisions. It's not designed to be, because it doesn't have to, and the alternative is *much* easier. Tons of things would have to be redesigned if collisions caused damage.

#2 Captcha on games is just a terrible idea in general. If people want ot AFK then fine, that's great, they've just made themselves gank targets, not to mention less efficient.

If the idea here is to stop botters that'll work for about a week before they program the bots to play the game, at which point it's now more of a hindrance and annoyance to actual miners than it is to botters.

There's been talk among players for a while now that there should be some kind of optional minigame that boosts yield to make mining more engaging, the problem with this is that it's going to get old very quickly and it's a suggestion mostly proposed by non-miners to make mining fun for them, not by Miners who want something more to do while they're mining.
Hallvardr
#248 - 2016-10-20 16:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Hallvardr
Having made my way thru these 12 pages and reading people's comments about this buff making the Orca OP, I suspect that these people that are crying are themselves not Orca pilots. Opinions negated.

Also, someone back around page 5 or 6 inferenced that the orca could now mount strip miners ... I do not think so sir. I didn't read anywhere in the dev blog of this being the case.

Also, as with most "buffs" there is a counter. What are the perceived downsides to this development. Nothing is free. ok- well maybe Alpha clones are but that's an anomaly.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#249 - 2016-10-20 18:08:19 UTC
Sean Roach wrote:
I think the following changes are needed, as a block.

  • Ships bumping into one another should do damage inversely proportional to their proportional mass and cause a Newtonian ricochet of both ships, again inversely proportional to their proportional mass. The damage should bypass shield, but not armor. A little stabber bumping a freighter should flatten itself against the hull of that massive ship, with 100% armor and hull damage, before getting it to move by more than a minute of angle. The massive ship should get a scratch. Easily fixed by an armor repper.
  • A minigame should pop up every 1D10 mining or salvaging cycles, or drone mining/salvaging cycles, per module/drone. Something simple that functions as a CAPTCHA. An "Are you on station" check. Don't do this to combat, or things will get really hairy really fast, and there's already plenty of reason to stay on station when you're up against moving targets.
    • Possibly put a timer on the latter, so if you don't address the minigame, or shut down the strip miner/mining laser/salvager within some pre-set time frame, (say, 30 seconds), you get overheating damage to the module or hull damage to the drone.
    Choices for a minigame could be, fixing a jammed component via remote damage bypass, (similar to the hacking mechanic,) extinguishing a fire, fine-tuning a notch filter to catch the correct elements rather than the chaff, etc.


The combination would heavily nerf bumping, while addressing the supposed issue that "justifies" bumping in the first place: AFK play.


Personally, my reading of the complaints of Orca changes, by the ganker/bumpers is "It's weaker, sure, but it's not weak enough for me".


Crying... Can't handle.... Too funny... Please send help... Oh god. Capchas in eve. Could it get ANY worse? This is almost as bad as that girls game where you type out each action and it plays a cinematic sequence
Goati
Doomheim
#250 - 2016-10-22 10:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Goati
On the test server I am using a drake to test mining burst range. I have all maxed relevant skills, including fleet command 5 and nm
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#251 - 2016-10-24 20:41:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Nam Dnilb
New Orca on the test server currently has 250.000.000Kg of mass, is this intentional? It's an absolute pig aligning. Titans do it better. :-B

[edit:fixed with today's patch]
munkape
Perfusus Sanguine
Pandemic Horde
#252 - 2016-10-25 16:33:33 UTC
Interesting to see lots of people saying how great it will be for solo mining. But it's also going to be the mining support ship everyone has always wanted.

It can give the boost's, hold the ore and also mine for itself. No longer a hanger floating in space.

I can't wait for these changes and will be purchasing one before the update is released.
Choo Mi
Sneggy Pit
#253 - 2016-10-26 14:26:27 UTC
The Orca is mainly a hi-sec ship and it is going to be totally unusable in hi for anything except possibly hauling things of no value.

Bumping will negate both fleet support or solo mining.

The Ice mining drones are a little late, Ice products are dropping so fast in price people are just mining Ore.

More nails in the coffin of hi sec miners.
Ded Akara
Doomheim
#254 - 2016-10-26 16:04:29 UTC
Did I hear CCP say they are going to release ice mining drone rigs as well? So far I can't see them on test server. Can anyone else see them?
RainReaper
RRN Industries
#255 - 2016-10-26 16:21:27 UTC
Ded Akara wrote:
Did I hear CCP say they are going to release ice mining drone rigs as well? So far I can't see them on test server. Can anyone else see them?

The old drone mining rigs have gained a % decrease to ice drone mining times. so the old drone mining rigs now affect both regular drones and ice drones.
FleetAdmiralHarper
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#256 - 2016-10-27 08:04:54 UTC  |  Edited by: FleetAdmiralHarper
I think the Orcas yield is still to low personally. i think it should get another +600 to max mining per min with drones, and i think it should get more ice mining drone cycle bonuses.. I dont feel like this is enough.

i dont care if its "as good as a barge" as some people claim, it also cost 4x what that T2 barge cost so it should be Better at the job.

Also i think its time they added Capital Strip miners.
the orca should beable to put 4 of them on if it wants to.. or atleast put 4 normal strip miners on...
We have needed a Capital mining ship for a very long time now.
Capital and super capital ships take armies of mining alts weeks of boring AFK mining to make even 1 ship..

As for the PVP players out there looking at this change, i want you to think about this..
if CCP makes these ships REALLY attractive, i mean REALLY REALLY freaking attractive for miners to be in them!
(and no currently what is purposed is NOT enough for miners to want to risk them) mining.
Than that means you will get more really expensive kills on your boards, and people might even try to defend them in belts which means even more fights and kills..

Edit: Ice mining drones are to dang big. please make them 25 m3/bandwidth. and not 50. thx


Oh lastly CCP, plz don't forget to make gas mining drones =)

my 2 cents. 0/
aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#257 - 2016-10-27 18:43:25 UTC
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:
I think the Orcas yield is still to low personally. i think it should get another +600 to max mining per min with drones, and i think it should get more ice mining drone cycle bonuses.. I dont feel like this is enough.

i dont care if its "as good as a barge" as some people claim, it also cost 4x what that T2 barge cost so it should be Better at the job.

Also i think its time they added Capital Strip miners.
the orca should beable to put 4 of them on if it wants to.. or atleast put 4 normal strip miners on...
We have needed a Capital mining ship for a very long time now.
Capital and super capital ships take armies of mining alts weeks of boring AFK mining to make even 1 ship..

As for the PVP players out there looking at this change, i want you to think about this..
if CCP makes these ships REALLY attractive, i mean REALLY REALLY freaking attractive for miners to be in them!
(and no currently what is purposed is NOT enough for miners to want to risk them) mining.
Than that means you will get more really expensive kills on your boards, and people might even try to defend them in belts which means even more fights and kills..

Edit: Ice mining drones are to dang big. please make them 25 m3/bandwidth. and not 50. thx


Oh lastly CCP, plz don't forget to make gas mining drones =)

my 2 cents. 0/


How did you get it be "as good as a barge" ?? I am not a great miner, but was keen to see how close I could get them, but my mack easily out mines the orca. I am sure I have missed something as I still don't know what to do with all 6 HS :/
RainReaper
RRN Industries
#258 - 2016-10-27 19:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: RainReaper
aldhura wrote:
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:
I think the Orcas yield is still to low personally. i think it should get another +600 to max mining per min with drones, and i think it should get more ice mining drone cycle bonuses.. I dont feel like this is enough.

i dont care if its "as good as a barge" as some people claim, it also cost 4x what that T2 barge cost so it should be Better at the job.

Also i think its time they added Capital Strip miners.
the orca should beable to put 4 of them on if it wants to.. or atleast put 4 normal strip miners on...
We have needed a Capital mining ship for a very long time now.
Capital and super capital ships take armies of mining alts weeks of boring AFK mining to make even 1 ship..

As for the PVP players out there looking at this change, i want you to think about this..
if CCP makes these ships REALLY attractive, i mean REALLY REALLY freaking attractive for miners to be in them!
(and no currently what is purposed is NOT enough for miners to want to risk them) mining.
Than that means you will get more really expensive kills on your boards, and people might even try to defend them in belts which means even more fights and kills..

Edit: Ice mining drones are to dang big. please make them 25 m3/bandwidth. and not 50. thx


Oh lastly CCP, plz don't forget to make gas mining drones =)

my 2 cents. 0/


How did you get it be "as good as a barge" ?? I am not a great miner, but was keen to see how close I could get them, but my mack easily out mines the orca. I am sure I have missed something as I still don't know what to do with all 6 HS :/



3 highslots are to be used with any combination of shield/mining bursts, as its main role is that of a fleet booster.
And then for its remaining 3 slots you can use a combo of tractor beams/salvagers and even remote shield boosters as it got bonuses for tractor beams to help it reach for droped ore cans the miners drop when mining as well as salvaging of npc/ganker wrecks when they haven been taken care of, as well as the new remote shield logi bonuses the orca gets,
also even if you mine solo. using the 3 shield bursts will allow the orca to get enhanced tanking abileties.
This is because you dont require fleet mates anymore when using the bursts.
While the mining bursts dont affect drones the shield bursts will affect the orca.
Giving it enhanced shield amounts and resistances.
Ali Virgo
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#259 - 2016-10-29 04:29:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks! This will be the specific feedback thread for the Orca revamp coming this November.
You can check out the dev blog here for the whole context.
Other feedback threads are available for the Porpoise, Rorqual, and the mining foreman gameplay as a whole.

ORCA
Industrial Command Ships bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to ship cargo capacity and ore hold
3% bonus to Mining Foreman Burst Strength and Duration
1% bonus to Shield Command Burst Strength and Duration
10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield
-10% reduction in drone ice harvesting cycle time
Role bonus:
100% bonus to drone mining yield
-25% reduction in drone ice harvesting cycle time
100% bonus to drone damage
400% bonus to Remote Shield Booster optimal range
90% reduction to effective distance traveled for jump fatigue
Can fit three Command Burst modules
50% bonus to Command Burst Area of Effect Range
250% bonus to Tractor Beam range
100% bonus to Tractor Beam velocity
500% bonus to Survey Scanner range

Slot layout: 6H (+3), 5M (+1), 2L
Fittings: 1200 PWG (+240), 550 CPU (+120)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 30,000 (+19,250) / 7000 (+100) / 45,000 (-1000)
Base shield resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 0 / 20 / 40 / 50
Base armor resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 50 / 35 / 35 / 10
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 8000 (+3800) / 1200s (+400) / 6.67 (+1.42)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 60 / 0.26 (+0.1) / 150,000,000 (-100,000,000) / 54.07s (-1.38)
Warp Speed: 2 au/s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 200 (+125)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km (+10) / 75 / 7 (+5)
Sensor strength: 30 Magnetometric (+15)
Signature radius: 1000
Cargo Hold: 30,000m3
Ore Hold: 150,000m3 (+100,000)
Fleet Hangar: 40,000m3
Ship Maintenance Bay: 400,000m3

Cost: ~700m isk
Max Yield: ~1400m3 per minute + drone travel time
Max DPS: ~800 dps

Let us know what you think!


so orca can mine half as much as a rorquals and 70 percent of its tank. and it can live in high sec and has 80 percent dps of a roq... people will just join npc corp and mine in high sec with these
Shonit Fargi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#260 - 2016-10-29 07:53:57 UTC
Oops
Jin Kugu wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Interesting response considering the complaint is about not being able to interact with an aggressing player before the NPC police arrive.


We could just delay concord and facpo by 20 seconds if that's what you want.

That reminds me, when is CCP announcing the corresponding buff to ganking?

CCP Fozzie wrote:
we like to pair buff and nerfs to suicide ganking to keep things in balance



why do you have to gank why its not fun for us miners when you destroy our ships we make the world go round ya we get rich doing it but if all the miners up and quit the game you would have eanugh ships to last a month or 2 and then you would keep up the wars and then no ships and no one to build them for you you pushed us to far were gone game over is that what you want ccp knows that miers are sick and tired of it and more quit every day because you cant leave them alone if we all quit ou wont have ships to buy no one will prduse them miners need you to fight wars and you need miners to build ships so you can keep fighting so stop ganking us wonce the miners say thats it im tired of this bs we will all quit and go play star citazen and eve will die we love eve but we wont take ganking abuse anymore