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Dev Blog: EULA Changes Coming With EVE Online: Ascension

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Pew Terror
All of it
#421 - 2016-10-13 15:20:55 UTC
Holy moses, a lot of this reads like heroin addicts after the man took away their heroin...
Bill Lane
Strategic Insanity
FUBAR.
#422 - 2016-10-13 15:28:07 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Bill Lane wrote:
So, let me get this straight. A mechanic that YOU allowed, CCP, was misused by a few people. You took all the bankers money and everything (including the banker that started two days ago). They now have nothing. They did nothing wrong.


Are you being deliberately stupid.* They violated the EULA. In the case of IWI they were engaged in RMT. In the case of Eve Casino several violations of the third party EULA.

You are just being deliberately obtuse.

*Note that really isn't a question...you are being deliberately stupid. Gambling for virtual currencies is not a problem, when they engage in RMT that is a problem. Now after all these problems, and given other issues with game based gambling and actual...you know things like lawsuits and government agencies getting involved CCP pulled the plug.

In short, pull you head out before you suffocate.


Haha. I know WHY those entire organizations were banned. But the fact that they completely screwed everybody involved I likened to banning an entire alliance because of two botters. 3 people were banned from what I'm hearing, the rest, even those who JUST started working for IWI got all of their money removed. I personally know one person who had been there all of about 2 weeks, had borrowed money from people to become a banker, just a couple real friends. All gone.

So please, keep your inappropriate comments to yourself. They screwed good people, and a hell of a lot of them.

Military Gamers gaming community

FUBAR's Website
Bill Lane
Strategic Insanity
FUBAR.
#423 - 2016-10-13 15:35:42 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Bill Lane wrote:
*rant snipped*

1. Anyone involved with the behind the scenes business should have been able to see that funny games were going on with regards to RMT.

2. Those EULA bits you are bringing up haven't been changed, why didn't you contact the legal team if you found them such an issue when you resigned the EULA after the last change or the change before them.

3. They didn't ban an entire alliance because of two bad apples. They banned the team that knew what was going on with RMT, the team that were breaking the dev license repeatedly (Possibly in such a way that would have let them steal logins), and they changed the rules on gambling sites, which most of the reason will have come from recent rulings in the UK & USA on gambling for virtual items with virtual money still counting as a real gambling site.

4. CCP did not & has never allowed RMT. This is what people got banned for. Not for running a gambling site.


Ok.

1. People get away with RMT because they are very sneaky about it. If people KNEW they were doing it, they'd have been banned sooner. And to screw the new bankers as well (a friend of mine two weeks and he said one new guy of 2 days who lost trillions of isk) is insane, like they somehow knew.

2. You are right, however this is only highlighted now that there are changes being made and quite obviously they need to better write their EULA.

3. Re-read, I never said they actually banned an alliance. It's the concept. They took all the money from the bankers and everything, even the new ones, who weren't even possibly involved. I said it's LIKE banning an entire alliance because they find two botters amongst the fleet. Rumor has it, the top 3 people were banned for RMT, the rest they just don't care about, effectively taking all their money.

4. I never questioned this. I've been around for many years, I've laughed at all the people dumb enough to take part in RMT and that get banned. But this overall screwing of everyone that was employed is just a bullcrap move.

Look people, I wasn't saying that RMT should be allowed, or even that gambling sites should stay. The fact remains that they allowed the gambling sites, and when someone did RMT they just freaking screwed over everybody involved with the entire company. Those who couldn't have possibly even had the time working with the corp to know there was RMT. THAT is what pisses me off.

Military Gamers gaming community

FUBAR's Website
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#424 - 2016-10-13 15:38:14 UTC
Bill Lane wrote:

Haha. I know WHY those entire organizations were banned. But the fact that they completely screwed everybody involved I likened to banning an entire alliance because of two botters. 3 people were banned from what I'm hearing, the rest, even those who JUST started working for IWI got all of their money removed. I personally know one person who had been there all of about 2 weeks, had borrowed money from people to become a banker, just a couple real friends. All gone.

So please, keep your inappropriate comments to yourself. They screwed good people, and a hell of a lot of them.

This is a hilarious story. Those poor souls! They only tried to attach themselves to a hideously flagrant RMT machine and made poor choices while doing so. Won't you think of the childrennewbies bankers?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#425 - 2016-10-13 15:46:41 UTC
Querns wrote:
Bill Lane wrote:

Haha. I know WHY those entire organizations were banned. But the fact that they completely screwed everybody involved I likened to banning an entire alliance because of two botters. 3 people were banned from what I'm hearing, the rest, even those who JUST started working for IWI got all of their money removed. I personally know one person who had been there all of about 2 weeks, had borrowed money from people to become a banker, just a couple real friends. All gone.

So please, keep your inappropriate comments to yourself. They screwed good people, and a hell of a lot of them.

This is a hilarious story. Those poor souls! They only tried to attach themselves to a hideously flagrant RMT machine and made poor choices while doing so. Won't you think of the childrennewbies bankers?

Imaging tomorrow cops arrest your neighbor for drug dealing or smth. And they arrest you too. Because of course you knew he was a drug dealer and you didnt inform the police, so you were covering him. How does that feel?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#426 - 2016-10-13 15:52:00 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Querns wrote:
Bill Lane wrote:

Haha. I know WHY those entire organizations were banned. But the fact that they completely screwed everybody involved I likened to banning an entire alliance because of two botters. 3 people were banned from what I'm hearing, the rest, even those who JUST started working for IWI got all of their money removed. I personally know one person who had been there all of about 2 weeks, had borrowed money from people to become a banker, just a couple real friends. All gone.

So please, keep your inappropriate comments to yourself. They screwed good people, and a hell of a lot of them.

This is a hilarious story. Those poor souls! They only tried to attach themselves to a hideously flagrant RMT machine and made poor choices while doing so. Won't you think of the childrennewbies bankers?

Imaging tomorrow cops arrest your neighbor for drug dealing or smth. And they arrest you too. Because of course you knew he was a drug dealer and you didnt inform the police, so you were covering him. How does that feel?

This is a very poor analogy. A banker, in this scenario, is analogous to the drug dealer's courier. They directly aid and abet the RMT machine.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#427 - 2016-10-13 15:58:04 UTC
CCP, pay up your lawyers in ISK, and those lawyers in america should be paid with monopoly money for petes sake.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#428 - 2016-10-13 16:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Querns wrote:
This is a very poor analogy. A banker, in this scenario, is analogous to the drug dealer's courier. They directly aid and abet the RMT machine.

Courier? Maybe driver? Or a gardener? Or maybe just a neighbor still?
I dont know how much bankers were involved in RMT, and I dont think you do either. I mean it's pretty obvious you dont know each and every banker. Yet, you assume they are all ~criminals~. Presumption of innocence and personal responsibility are two major cornerstones of justice and you just deny them.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#429 - 2016-10-13 16:04:26 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Querns wrote:
This is a very poor analogy. A banker, in this scenario, is analogous to the drug dealer's courier. They directly aid and abet the RMT machine.

Courier? Maybe driver? Or a gardener? Or maybe just a neighbor still?
I dont know how much bankers were involved in RMT, and I dont think you do. I mean it's pretty obvious you dont know each and every banker. Yet, you assume they are all ~criminals~. Presumption of innocence and personal responsibility are two major cornerstones of justice and you just deny them.


Nah. Bankers were essential to IWI's operation. They provided the transactional bulk that shrouded the RMT from occurring. All this nonsense about "m-muh personal isk" is irrelevant. The site was a flagrant RMT machine. Attaching oneself to an RMT machine has consequences, even if one, as a theoretical "banker," is personally too ignorant to see them.

No mercy. No respite. Death to RMT, and death to gambling.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
James Zealot
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#430 - 2016-10-13 16:12:59 UTC
Querns wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Querns wrote:
This is a very poor analogy. A banker, in this scenario, is analogous to the drug dealer's courier. They directly aid and abet the RMT machine.

Courier? Maybe driver? Or a gardener? Or maybe just a neighbor still?
I dont know how much bankers were involved in RMT, and I dont think you do. I mean it's pretty obvious you dont know each and every banker. Yet, you assume they are all ~criminals~. Presumption of innocence and personal responsibility are two major cornerstones of justice and you just deny them.


Nah. Bankers were essential to IWI's operation. They provided the transactional bulk that shrouded the RMT from occurring. All this nonsense about "m-muh personal isk" is irrelevant. The site was a flagrant RMT machine. Attaching oneself to an RMT machine has consequences, even if one, as a theoretical "banker," is personally too ignorant to see them.

No mercy. No respite. Death to RMT, and death to gambling.


Lmao...what a goon.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#431 - 2016-10-13 16:19:37 UTC
Aelavaine wrote:
Well maybe it's because of some laws in the UK and US. I don't live there so I don't care.


Unfortunately the US has rather a habit of assuming its jurisdiction extends outside its own borders. I've no idea how credible a threat this is, but _if_ CCP think the US might decide EVE is gambling-by-proxy, they would have to take that seriously. They might be in Iceland (although they're not entirely, anyway) but their customers aren't.
Aurure
some random local shitlords
#432 - 2016-10-13 16:24:46 UTC
James Zealot wrote:
Querns wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Querns wrote:
This is a very poor analogy. A banker, in this scenario, is analogous to the drug dealer's courier. They directly aid and abet the RMT machine.

Courier? Maybe driver? Or a gardener? Or maybe just a neighbor still?
I dont know how much bankers were involved in RMT, and I dont think you do. I mean it's pretty obvious you dont know each and every banker. Yet, you assume they are all ~criminals~. Presumption of innocence and personal responsibility are two major cornerstones of justice and you just deny them.


Nah. Bankers were essential to IWI's operation. They provided the transactional bulk that shrouded the RMT from occurring. All this nonsense about "m-muh personal isk" is irrelevant. The site was a flagrant RMT machine. Attaching oneself to an RMT machine has consequences, even if one, as a theoretical "banker," is personally too ignorant to see them.

No mercy. No respite. Death to RMT, and death to gambling.


Lmao...what a goon.



Scenario:

You are traveling with your supercapital, and at one point you get caught, even though you took care of everything and made it impossible to get caught and killed, unless hostiles use an exploit. You die to an exploit.
Question: Should the offenders get banned, or should they be allowed to keep playing without any repercussions because they all, unisono, declared they didn't know this was an exploit and had no idea?

Or, in other words: If you don't know you're comitting a crime, it's still a crime and you'll get prosecuted for it.
Black Romero
Aviation Professionals for EVE
#433 - 2016-10-13 16:49:59 UTC
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
So ban RMT'ers and let the legit sites keep going is what you're saying?

Sites like the eve poker site that has existed for years?

I mean seriously boat, I know you're supposed to carry the hate boner flag for GSF after the war happened but this is dumb, people will still gamble, gambling has been in eve since time began, shutting down the sites that power the community wont do a damn thing to stop it and only serve to hurt the community.

In order for game balance to be restored, all gambling must perish. The game should not be dictated by who has the better out-of-game wealth concentration scheme. Your bloviating about the how casinos "power the community" is no different than Al Capone's soup kitchens.


I am with the Goons on this one. Maybe CCP will bring back gambling in game at a later date but on their terms....not something that may work for some players but not CCP. If you guys play your cards right and act respectful of this situation and WORK WITH CCP more, maybe you can help set it up.

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#434 - 2016-10-13 16:56:41 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
CCP, pay up your lawyers in ISK, and those lawyers in america should be paid with monopoly money for petes sake.


they do pay their lawyers in isk, as Isk IS the currency of iceland.

just sayin

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#435 - 2016-10-13 17:02:28 UTC
Toobo wrote:


You are the clueless one here. NOT ALL bankers are banned, and that means they have not RMTed. But yet hey had their wallet turned to 0 ISK. If the ISK they earned from banking with IWI is considered as RMT fund, then I can understand the banking profits off IWI could be in consideration for confiscation. But beside banking, bankers put in their personal ISK, which they earned through legit in game means, to bank with. This ISK is not earned from IWI, it's personal fund that bankers used to bank with, much like many playeres gambled with ISK they made through non EULA breaking in game means.

What happened is that, these bankers all had their ISK turned into zero. Also, bankers' alts, such as ratting toon or whatever, if they had wallet transaction history with the banking toon, got their wallet ISK turned to zero.

If they have RMTed, sure their accounts should be banned. But their accounts are alive, and even toons that were not involved with IWI got their ISK confiscated, ISK they made through ratting or incursion or WH or whatever.

I applied to be a banker two months ago, but I didn't get accepted. But according to how CCP has done it now, if I joined IWI as a banker back then, then ALL my ISK and assets I accumulated through nearly a decade of hame playing eve before IWI existed would have been confiscated, for having mere association with IWI for two months and never having done RMT myself.

There are people who became banker a few days ago, and they had all their ISK removed.

CCP is not even considering such cases, and automatically close support tickets and petitions from these guys without even lookiing into their case.

Now tell me, you seriously think all of the above is good job done from CCP?


I didn't say they were all banned. But some were and those that were it was related to RMT, so you getting on your high horse looks just ridiculous.

As for seizing of ISK and assets neither you nor I know what was done on that front. They said all ISK was seized, but we do not know if that was for all bankers or just those involved in RMT. In fact, the way RMT works is you sell ISK for RL money. RMT ISK is seized if it was bought with RL money. Seems unlikely these guys were buying ISK as they already had ginormous amounts of it already. Now if they were aware of the RMT side of things and were even taking part in it, then they are likely screwed.

And even if CCP had not issued a blanket ban I would suggest that people think long an hard about joining any EVE casino as there appears to be a problem with RMT and yes you could, inadvertently, get hit with the ban hammer. You know the saying, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Well, I think that is a problem with these casinos. All that ISK flowing in and then you realize you can make money....potentially lots of money off of it, and yeah you'll eventually get caught, but you'll be laughing all the way to the bank.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#436 - 2016-10-13 17:02:39 UTC
Black Romero wrote:
Maybe CCP will bring back gambling in game at a later date but on their terms....

Please no gambling in my EVE.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#437 - 2016-10-13 17:03:31 UTC
Toobo wrote:
Making example by punishing the innocent? You think that's good management?


Stop talking out of ignorance you do not know who was banned or precisely what was taken from whom. Neither do I.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#438 - 2016-10-13 17:05:27 UTC
Aelavaine wrote:
tl;dr

Since I don't speak lawyerish that point regarding gambling leaves me with more questions than answers.

I also have no sympathy with RMTs, so do with them what you want. But to boot everyone who enriched the game since its start, 3rd parties you even supported by yourself, without further explanation is just a catastrophy.
There are honest sites and operators out there who deserve better (EOH, BIG for example) and at least an explanation why they are now the bad boys.

Game == Gambling - The whole game is gambling, with every journey through New Eden.
Do you come back with more Ore? Will that gank give you a shiny killmail? Will that mission drop enough loot? And so on. And of course you can increase your chances by fitting your ship better. Or pay a third party 10M ISK for example, so they gank you less likely. But that's all gambling too and involves third parties, more or less.

Well maybe it's because of some laws in the UK and US. I don't live there so I don't care. What if the Iran prohibites games with spaceships next year? Will you seize all ships ingame and ban all who used them?

This issue deserves to be handled with more care and sensitivity.


No, game == gambling (I presume that is an identity, the double equal sign).

That is just specious Bravo Sierra right there.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jew Jew Binks
Doomheim
#439 - 2016-10-13 17:14:06 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Black Romero wrote:
Maybe CCP will bring back gambling in game at a later date but on their terms....

Please no gambling in my EVE.

i want my eve with blackjack and hookers

it would be cool to have in-game gambling features but at the same time i can live without
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#440 - 2016-10-13 17:24:55 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
EDIT: Not to mention, prohibition has literally never worked, people will still gamble.

Alright, here's the deal.
Of all the US cities, only Vegas allows gambling, right? Why? Why dont you lift the restriction and allow it throughout the country? It gives the jobs, it gives the taxes. It even diminishes the crime, because no more illegal casinos, right? Wrong!

Despite all the sweet things that casinos provide, they bring way too many problems.
Gambling should've never been allowed in EVE. Mistakes were made, but now when it's gone I can only cheer CCP for this decision. And so should you.


No Atlantic City, Native American reservations also can engage in certain types of gambling (It is pretty big in California), there are even some other casinos in CA not on reservations.

The problem with gambling is that it has had a tendency to go hand-in-hand with organized crime. It can be a great place to launder money for example. Here in game it seems to go somewhat hand-in-hand with RMT.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online