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118.9 - General feedback (PC)

First post First post
Author
Linoire Ironblade
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#81 - 2016-10-12 16:58:10 UTC
Andiell Chao wrote:
Linoire Ironblade wrote:
My brain always loses a few cells when I see a company maintaining their own browser. Both Chrome and Firefox are open source, and you can slam whatever GUI over their Web View that you please. In fact, you can just import the web view as an object and respond to simple events (i.e. clicking back, home, etc).

FYI, the in-game browser was based on an old version of WebKit.

WebKit is just a web user agent, layout engine, and JavaScript runtime. Out of the box, WebKit doesn't know how to draw anything in an EVE game window using DirectX. CCP maintains that code. To complicate matters, CCP ran WebKit in a separate process to isolate crashes. That suggests some custom IPC protocol. Just think of the rapid pace of change in WebKit, particularly 3D transforms, video, and canvas. Keeping the WebKit-EVE integration current is a lot of work!

The devs deserve kudos for this move. Removing the IGB is gutsy and the right long-term approach. I just hope CREST is up to the task. There are definitely some holes. I'm really going to miss the Dotlan radar until I find a suitable alternative. I hope CCP will dedicate some developer time to smoothing over the gaps.



Please note that I was very clear what I was getting at:

Linoire Ironblade wrote:
Note to any future game developers: JUST STOP trying to write your own browsers using full source integration. Instead leverage existing browsers that already offer Web View objects (they all do, even MS Edge, and IE).



There is no need to fully integrate browser source into a game. Web Views have been available at least as long as Android has been. That means that you can just include Firefox (most easily) or Chrome as a third party library running in a separate process. The Web View renders into the ViewPort provided by the game (in this case, the IGB window canvas).

CCP does not have to maintain any browser code, and the browser continues to keep up as they can bundle a build that is triggered off of main-line releases.

It doesn't take courage to remove something entirely that has a viable alternative.

It does take courage to admit their loyal customer base, by and large, relied heavily on a tool that has provided (esp. single-monitor) users a means to leverage valuable tools for a very, very long time.

(Just a quick proof of concept with Web Views: The launcher is a Web View - it does not have a web browser built in on a source level)
Psycho Sociopath
NGA Inc.
#82 - 2016-10-12 17:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Psycho Sociopath
Hello, I would like ti tell few things(ESPECIALLY BAD ONES) about new release...

first of all, thanks for release

but this new(beta map) it is totally unusable, many(all) people in my corporation, and many other in our alliance complain about that and about how they miss "dotlan" with it's map and it's feature of making waypoints and navigation, and here is why it is unusable in my opinion

this beta map is not "visually friendly" I mean it is hard to see your final destination if you want tot make a route more thank 5 jumps away from the system where you located to your destination system
here we have eve map - eve map
here we have dotlan map - dotlan map

eve map is visually "hostile" to a player, reasons :
1 - system names shown dimmed and as you zoomin(zoomout) system name change it's opacity, thus making EXTREMELY difficult perception of information(system name), player need yo focus his vision REALLY very hard to read system names, and if you point on a system it's name shown without opacity correction, pure white colour on the black background, YES! this is how it suppose to be, not only highlighted system should be "white", but all system should have clear white names, so it is easy to read and perceive information! I don't mention the worst scenario when player zooming out and names completely disappear from the map when you see approx 15-20 systems around(+- 3-5 systems away from you if you in the centre, this is NIGHTMARE!

2 - if we look at dotlan map and eve beta map(even if in the "abstract" mode) we can see nice flat view lines linking the systems on dotlan, which is very clear for perception, that mostly straight connecting adjacent systems without intersections with each other and names of the systems doesn't slides over each other(which is a SERIOUS problem, which we can see on the eve beta map) this making fast navigation TOTALLY unusable! ok i can perceive 3d images, but the problem of eve map that names are dim and intersections are sliding on each other making difficult to see CLEAR way connecting systems

3 - the route! when you creating the route it is show in dotted line, and here is why it is bad idea instead of showing the route e.g. in solid line which is differs in colour from your current region(security status) if i'm in hises space it is ok, it is nice contrasted red line between blue, and green systems, but most players live in nullsec system where everything on the map has black and red pattern and when you see this red dotted line in nullsec space, it is a NIGHTMARE it almost merges with map background making difficult to distinct your route and lines connecting adjacent systems + this dimmed solar systems names, TERRIBLE!

4 - the filter menu, represented by colour wheel, it is very "heavy" I mean it is very hard to use it when you need to get fast intell about jumps, kills, etc... and here is why:
a) menu itself disappear each time when you move pointer out the menu zone, this is INSANE !!!!! it should be at least as standard menu e.g. when player right clicking on the spot and see list of actions and it won't disappear until played makes his choice
b) the hierarchy how filters located - player need to click on slide down sub menus than scroll, than click, etc, etc... this is very SLOWPOKE, i mean it is REALLY slowing down the time of getting intell and combining with constantly disappearing filter menu if player occasionally moved pointer outside the the menu bar, and here is how i see it, as a comfortable organic way - player should be able to drag and pin each intell parameter to the border of the map thus creating his own intell set and than just be able to click on the checkbox near desirable pinned parameter, and the map should change appearance, showing intell from currently checked filter, here is the proposed idea on the picture - alternative map intell in the left bottom corner we have pinned favourite intell filters, which could give fast intell information by checking appropriate checkbox
c) this "circles", i mean when you select an intell about DED, Jumps, Assets, etc. you see colour circles showing intensity and numeric value, BUT, this circles they have the one major problem they didn't show any intell information until you pointed on it, e.g. you zoomed out star map, you see 10 circles(filter - players in the system past 24h), BUT !!! to see actual number of players you need to point on each circle and only then you will see the numerical value representing intell information, this making intell VERY SLOW, you need to click-check each 10 circles, and it there is 20-30 circles??? intel information SHOULD be instantly visual, e.g. - circle and number inside it, ad nice and clear , not dimmed or opacity adjusted number like dimmed names of solar system from section 1

p.s. may be i forgot something but this is what I see as a problem and how it should be in my humble opinion how to improve our beloved EVE
TenTen Artakian
Last Sol Fire
Brave Collective
#83 - 2016-10-12 19:59:50 UTC
why you remove in game browser..it was usefull tool for the game..you have no reason to do that..
Mara Kell
Herrscher der Zeit
Pandemic Horde
#84 - 2016-10-12 20:39:52 UTC
The new market graph is much to dark and lacking contrast to the window background.

Also the vertical scale, wtf?

Why on earth can it show negative prices instead of having 0 as lowest price?

And the market seems to often chose a total useless scaling for the price.

Example:
http://i.imgur.com/RS5FOSa.png


Seriously CCP a market graph has a zero as bottom price and nothing else, never...

Also what are those crude scale numbers? Have we recently burried the decimal system in europe?
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2016-10-13 00:08:37 UTC
Quote:
but this new(beta map) it is totally unusable, many(all) people in my corporation, and many other in our alliance complain about that and about how they miss "dotlan" with it's map and it's feature of making waypoints and navigation, and here is why it is unusable in my opinion


Some months ago I (and other people) have been trying to explain them for weeks about the issues with the new "map" - among those:

- its ridiculous dimming (and dimming absolutely everything when zoom center is not a solar system)
- lack of basic options that even old map has
- forced shading of lines using whatever colors solar systems use; particularly amusing when set to security around null-sec regions - dimmed dark red everything ....
- forced merging with 3d solar view (remaining 3d even in flattened mode) that messes up / further clutters everything

With big walls of texts, screenshots and so on. The fundamental issues are:

- whoever is responsible for new "map" design at CCP, has no uinderstanding of what a map is and what kind of purpose it's supposed to serve

- current iteration of developers hates options - so they dumb down everything to the lowest common denominator. Simple example - new tactical overlay. Try to explain to them the usefulness of a checkbox or - better - a shortcut to switch between curverd and vertical projections. Or try to explain to them that stifness and sensitivity is not the same (new "camera").

Actually let's get a small, incomplete list (without even touching issues related to new map/probe map/probe dialog):


  • UI: forced window snapping is beyond irritating (and buggy, pulling other windows when minimizing to title bar - even if the other ones are pinned); we had option to control / turn off snapping some years ago
  • UI: instead of "racial" color presets - of dubious usefulness, we had simple RGB sliders that we could use to set whatever one was comfortable with
  • UI: icons and everything lack basic information that our eyes use: COLOR
  • UI: "tab" key could be used to minimize all windows *to horizontal titlebars*, which was much more useful than minimizing everything to neocom
  • UI: pinning a window makes it fully transparent, ignoring transparency settings;
  • tactical overlay: curved projections - this can be both excellent and absolutely horrible depending on the situation, with very little middle ground in between; a shortcut to change between vertical and curved projections on the fly would make that a really good feature;
  • navigation: approach shortcut now forces you to create a point in space - the previous functionality is available only if we have focus on overview or bracket (and with animation still often playing behind before the client realizes the focus); this needs a checkbox to retain original functionality
  • new camera: limited fov range (compared to old camera), no normal sliders, no way to rebind alt+mwheel which also formally conflicts with (also hardcoded) probe range alt+mwheel (probe window requires focus, but should you miss it ...)
  • new camera: lack of custom tracking position
  • new camera: separate sliders for horizontal and vertical sensitivity - where is it ?
  • new camera: sensitivity is not stiffness (inertia)
  • new camera: currently there's absolutely zero control over non-linear zoom
  • new camera: 'look at' on/off resets camera zoom instead of going back to the pre-look-at value

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Annamarina
Unknown Industrial Holding Corporation
#86 - 2016-10-13 02:01:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Annamarina
What happened to the drifters spawning in Wormholes? I don't see any patch notes regarding mechanics changes related to Drifters/Avengers?

Ours warped off and were nowhere to be found.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Anna
Speared
Let's annoy'em
#87 - 2016-10-13 02:32:41 UTC
Conar wrote:
I had no idea that this Siggy even existed and that it maps and logs as you jump around W-Space. Guess I can't miss something I didn't even know about. I am sorry for your loss.

Cant' you just alt-tab out and use chrome?


Conar 07


Alt+Tabbing is an immersion breaker and people might find other games on their desktops lol
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2016-10-13 11:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Soltys wrote:
Quote:
but this new(beta map) it is totally unusable, many(all) people in my corporation, and many other in our alliance complain about that and about how they miss "dotlan" with it's map and it's feature of making waypoints and navigation, and here is why it is unusable in my opinion


Some months ago I (and other people) have been trying to explain them for weeks about the issues with the new "map" - among those:

- its ridiculous dimming (and dimming absolutely everything when zoom center is not a solar system)
- lack of basic options that even old map has
- forced shading of lines using whatever colors solar systems use; particularly amusing when set to security around null-sec regions - dimmed dark red everything ....
- forced merging with 3d solar view (remaining 3d even in flattened mode) that messes up / further clutters everything

With big walls of texts, screenshots and so on. The fundamental issues are:

- whoever is responsible for new "map" design at CCP, has no uinderstanding of what a map is and what kind of purpose it's supposed to serve

- current iteration of developers hates options - so they dumb down everything to the lowest common denominator. Simple example - new tactical overlay. Try to explain to them the usefulness of a checkbox or - better - a shortcut to switch between curverd and vertical projections. Or try to explain to them that stifness and sensitivity is not the same (new "camera").

Actually let's get a small, incomplete list (without even touching issues related to new map/probe map/probe dialog):


  • UI: forced window snapping is beyond irritating (and buggy, pulling other windows when minimizing to title bar - even if the other ones are pinned); we had option to control / turn off snapping some years ago
  • UI: instead of "racial" color presets - of dubious usefulness, we had simple RGB sliders that we could use to set whatever one was comfortable with
  • UI: icons and everything lack basic information that our eyes use: COLOR
  • UI: "tab" key could be used to minimize all windows *to horizontal titlebars*, which was much more useful than minimizing everything to neocom
  • UI: pinning a window makes it fully transparent, ignoring transparency settings;
  • tactical overlay: curved projections - this can be both excellent and absolutely horrible depending on the situation, with very little middle ground in between; a shortcut to change between vertical and curved projections on the fly would make that a really good feature;
  • navigation: approach shortcut now forces you to create a point in space - the previous functionality is available only if we have focus on overview or bracket (and with animation still often playing behind before the client realizes the focus); this needs a checkbox to retain original functionality
  • new camera: limited fov range (compared to old camera), no normal sliders, no way to rebind alt+mwheel which also formally conflicts with (also hardcoded) probe range alt+mwheel (probe window requires focus, but should you miss it ...)
  • new camera: lack of custom tracking position
  • new camera: separate sliders for horizontal and vertical sensitivity - where is it ?
  • new camera: sensitivity is not stiffness (inertia)
  • new camera: currently there's absolutely zero control over non-linear zoom
  • new camera: 'look at' on/off resets camera zoom instead of going back to the pre-look-at value




Ouch. Pod fully ganked. Pirate implants lost.

you're right though and here's how I look at it. A map is two things. A pretty picture and/OR a source of information. Its hard to be both, especially in a 3D sense. Im reminded of those 3D topographical maps of real life places and how difficult they can be to parse by eye.

A pretty map is good, if what you want to do is see the universe in pretty colors. I think that's okay. A simplified map, however, is best if navigation is your foremost concern and time is of the essence.

I still use the old map because it gives a blend of these last two points.

Speared wrote:
Conar wrote:
I had no idea that this Siggy even existed and that it maps and logs as you jump around W-Space. Guess I can't miss something I didn't even know about. I am sorry for your loss.

Cant' you just alt-tab out and use chrome?


Conar 07


Alt+Tabbing is an immersion breaker and people might find other games on their desktops lol



Pff, so is alts.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Brian Harrelstein
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#89 - 2016-10-13 12:04:19 UTC
I was going to buy a pair of citadels and start mass manufacturing and sales, but with the removal of IGB, I'm cancelling my two accounts. Bye CCP.
Phuzzy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2016-10-13 15:30:35 UTC
First I would like to commend and thank the development team and the company for many year of interest and entertainment. Though I may not agree with some of it, I thank you very much for your efforts and wish you well in your future endeavors. May the will of your minds remain steadfast to the future of your desires.

I, along with some others here, do not normally post. In fact you might find less than a hand full of posts for me. I am of the opinion that reading through many pages of posts does not server a large purpose for me. I do read some of the release notes, but not all of them I admit.

By in large the modifications to your game have not broken some basic functions that we have accepted as the core game. I remember the removal of the music player, I date back to 2004. I did not like it, but it did not cause too much of a problem to find another player and listen to my music. I know there was a radio web site you could listen to the original EVE music, there were some nice compositions.

In reference to the removal of the In Game Browser though, I truly feel that you have taken out a significant tool, some of the integrations people will not see for quite some time. Suffice to say, it is my opinion I do not agree nor like the removal of the In Game Browser.

As I understand there is something that can interface with Chrome, however I have not investigated this and nor will I at this point. I have often found third party tools to have potential issues that could be exploited, and due to the nature of the culture you have built upon that in itself gives me pause.

Well wishes to all, may you have the stamina to sustain your ship

Phuzzy
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#91 - 2016-10-13 17:29:05 UTC
Don't know where to ask but could CCP Falcon lets us know;
When the Blue Ribbon skins might be added to the New Eden store.

Right now there is a Procurer skin - and 2 of 3 of the weirdest (read - Worst value for content) bundles on offer I've ever seen.



PLEASE, don't let this be how the fundraiser is to be presented - 1 T1 ship skin or be forced to buy a shite bundle of skins I'll never use.

I might buy skins for my 8 skiffs and possibly one for my orca but not one at a time in bundles with other skins I would never use.


CCP's marketing team, really does leave a lot to be desired when it comes to selling Eve products and knowing what their customers want and will pay for.

Shame it is such a worthy charity that's missing out this time round..

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
#92 - 2016-10-13 22:28:33 UTC
I've got some remarks about how you could make the market grahps a lil less cumbersome to use:

1) Once you've pushed the slider to show a year, remember that setting as the default for the next thing you look for on the market. Right now I keep on sliding it to show an entire year. (The previous graph remembered its timesetting too)

2) Make the numbers on the y-axis snap to "normal" numbers, like multiple's of 1000 isks, or 1M isks etc. The current linearised distribution makes the graph more difficult to read and understand. (I preferred the old graphs on this point.)

3) Increase the contrast of the grid in the background

4) Increase the contrast on the dots and lines. They're really fuzzy right now.
Do Nut
Caldari State
#93 - 2016-10-17 12:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Do Nut
The new PriceHistory in Regional Market - Details shows negative prices on the scale on left side, astonishing. What?

Edit 1:
some examples with negative price scales:
- Phased Scoped Target Painter
- Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
- Mark I Compact Power Diagnostic System
- Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
- Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
- Hornet I
and many many more


And the numbers are broken in a funny calculator manner, like
-7.398, -3.916, -435, 3.046, 6.527, 10.01K, 13.49K, 16.97K, 20.45K, 23.93K, 27.42K, 30.90K, 34.38K
Mygodness, who should read these numbers with one quick view? This art of scaling is known from the very beginning of computer science. Annoying. Cry
Number scales should be readable for human beings, like 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 or 0.75M, 0.80M, 0.85M, 0.90M and the like.


Edit 2:
The scale don't change with the time frame. So there are some graphs only showing a line of all numbers.
E.g.
- Phased Scoped Target Painter
- Hornet I
In these cases the information of the graphic is not worth the mouse click.


The new method for adjusting the time frame (at the bottom of Price History) is very good, imho. Smile

Happiness

is a way of travelling

not a destination.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#94 - 2016-10-17 12:54:40 UTC
Loki Vaako wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
So where is the button to revert to old market graphs? As a paying customer, that is the one I prefer.

The removal of browser is a terrible "feature". Also, where are my bookmarks for it? Hidden in a file somewhere I can get to?

Quote:
The new market graph has no time selection! Is that intentional or a bug?


Breaking things is CCP's way Roll

Jukebox removed.

Browser removed.

POSes going to be removed.

Its like they're going backwards.


It's called evolution.

Change is good,

The browser was a handy feature but it lacked too many features it made it more of a hindrance than useful.

The new market graphs look amazing they just take a little getting used to.

Pos's are being changed to Citadels.

CCP removes features but they also replace them with new functions and features that often contain and build upon the removed stuff.

Citadels are far better than POS's, Chrome with the new CREST functions are better than the IGB and the market graphs are more streamlined.

Please also remember that your not the only

This is ofc only my opinion.
Which you are entitled to, just a we are entitled the believe you are wrong.
The new market graphs leave a lot to be desired.
1GB was very good for some thing, that can't be replicated in an out of game browser, without having a professional coder in your corp.
Yes CCP removes features, then leave the gap to be filled by players making 3rd party apps. Nice cheap way for CCP to not provide options for players - Crest overall is a bug ridden nuisance. Pretty soon you won't need to login at all to play eve, that would reduce server load and possibly get rid of the terribad TIDI.

Citadels - Aren't even comparable to a pos - Less functionality in many cases, for higher prices with less to no mobility.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Lord Podgelark
Veni Vidi Vici Inc
The Initiative.
#95 - 2016-10-17 20:53:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Podgelark
Christopher Nolm wrote:
Ok. As a ccp dev it must be really hard reading these forums. Just a wave of negativity. In actual fact I think there are probably a lot of great improvements that just aren't realised yet or need a few quick fixes to make it good. I love the game and the community so thanks guys for the hard work.

What is hurting me is the loss of the IGB. I know we've known about it for ages and we all saw it coming. The idea was that there was enough notice for 3rd party developers to adjust using CREST. The problem is that some of the tools are not being developed anymore and so there is no fix or no prospect of a fix. What I am going to find hard to live without is Dotlan. Specifically the ability to track your movement around with easily readable maps and functionality that allows you to set destinations and waypoints etc through the IGB. Before anyone says, I know I can still use it out of game but it was the in-game intergration that made it really useful.

My understanding is that Dotlan won't get updated because the Dev's for that site are not Dev'ing it. Basically Dotlan provided a tool that the game lacked but probably should have and now the game is moving on, this tool is going to be lost. From a role playing perspective, the residents of New Eden would have developed easy to read star gate maps (like Dotlan). Even 21st century humans have worked out that accurate representations of geography aren't easy to read. That's why all major city underground transportation systems are shown in a kind of abstract way with straight lines and right angles when in reality the tunnels are wavy lines connected in a way that would look a bit more like spaghetti. This is because an abstract map is easier to read. The in game map is not like that. It's realistic, which is cool but hard to navigate. In my opinion something like Dotlan maps need to be encorporated into the game and in the meantime some way to have in game access to Dotlan. Realistically that would exist in New Eden. The lack of it doesn't add interesting game play - it's just harder and more annoying without it.

Anyway. Nuff said. Don't want to be overly negative because I love you guys and what you do.


I couldn't agree more. The loss of Dotlan Radar for a player on a portable machine with a small screen cannot be underestimated. I find it hard to believe that we are expected to use the ingame map for such navigation. It really is not fit for purpose. The increased difficulty as a consequence makes me question why I am still playing.

Also whilst we're at it. You still have not provided any means to change the HUD colouring which means I can still not see the locking range, weapons range etc cause its red. This really needs to be changed.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#96 - 2016-10-17 23:05:58 UTC  |  Edited by: TheSmokingHertog
Can we have a toggle to disable the price history animation?

NVM - just found out the interface has 2 wheeltoggles...

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Drigo Segvian
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#97 - 2016-10-19 23:53:29 UTC
Market graph looks awesome! +1 CCP Smile

PS, all these guys going on about the IGB..... sheesh. let it go guys


Asveron Durr
Vandanian Order
Greater Itamo Mafia
#98 - 2016-10-20 03:54:53 UTC
I want to know when the Crimson Harvest YC118 skins will be added to the drop tables of the sites if not there already.
Done quite a lot of them so far and only Cold Irons.

On another note, SOOO MANY damn skins being made and stuff..........

WHERE THE HELL ARE THE APPAREL, such as the Men's 'Curate' Coat (white/gold) at? you can get the boots and pants to match it.

Its not the only missing Apparel out there either.

But seriously, if nobody is getting them yet where/when are the Crimson Harvest skins coming to TQ?
Dominous Nolen
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#99 - 2016-10-21 22:31:05 UTC
We're still missing feature parity in the camera folks. When are we getting a customer tracking postiion for the ship camera?
Inquiring minds what to know....

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood

Thaler Derden
Otelen Camping Squad
#100 - 2016-10-24 21:38:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaler Derden
Very good graphics! But, I'm colorblind, and I see nothing! Please more contrast

p.s. Sorry for my English.