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[ASCENSION] Jump Range Changes

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SeVenNight Deng
Tai-Chi
#141 - 2016-10-12 06:01:27 UTC
you never see a supercap and tt blob without any Fax support right now, so for the most case, carrier and fax will still constraint in 6ly. We will like to see both super and normal carrier share the same ly, eg. 6.5ly.

If you idea is to separate jump range to increase different escalation in fight, honestly it wont work for most of the time, since supers can just jump through a couple gates and standby. Maybe if you increase carrier jump range to 7.5ly, a larger range difference between super and carriers might have more temp for people to try though?

I totally support MrHyde idea for getting rid of the jump fatigue and keep the reactivation timer for every jump (with longer timer), Please don't let us spend another two year waiting for the jump fatigue changes .
Ruby Gnollo
#142 - 2016-10-12 07:33:30 UTC
Elithiel en Gravonere wrote:

I know it is probably changed by the CSM (who seem to do whatever it is PL tell them to do)


Well, some players spent a lot of time and effort to convince CCP that the CSM was one of the worst perils for the game, but it seems that success is yet to come. But as far as I can remember, Goonswarm Federation as a whole has yet to find a stance on that subject (your leader's opinion looks clear, but your failed HM yet has to get a grasp on the situation)
GROUND XERO
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#143 - 2016-10-12 07:35:57 UTC
Just to remind! Jump fatique mechanics and range decreasment were comming into the game because super blobbs were jumping through eve 3rd 4th .. 5th party on everything ! We don´t need these times back in here!!!! I see a lot of more engagements with subcaps so why changing this when the majority in here is not flying em (player base) ? To destroy their fights with the fast moving superblobb? To make sov even more irrelevant? Or will sovholder get buffs like further jump ranges and less fatique to represent their sov structure?

We don´t need another buff of the super blobb!!!!!

NCPL (Necromonger of new Eden) will make EVE great again!
Elithiel en Gravonere
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#144 - 2016-10-12 07:55:13 UTC
Lelob wrote:
Elithiel en Gravonere wrote:
I don't think this change is at all necessary.

I know it is probably changed by the CSM (who seem to do whatever it is PL tell them to do) because it then makes it easier for the former MBC alliances to come after us down in Delve (negating one of the main reasons why Goonswarm Federation chose the region as our new home as being hard to get at).

Besides that reason for the change (which I disagree with as it favours certain roaming capital alliances like Pandemic Legion), the other main question is, do we really need to change it given the enormous number of capital fleet battles we're already seeing day upon day in Eve already? Is the system balanced enough? Yes, I think so, the market is making enough capitals and supers to keep up with losses sustained by alliances in these big cap fleet battles already.

Introducing this change may see more battles but will upset that fine balance we already have between PVE and PvP. PVE goes up when an area is relatively 'safe' and goes down when an area is unsafe. As someone who splits their time about 50%/50% between the play styles, I find it nice for a change to have regions that cannot be easily dropped upon by a random enemy capital fleet, giving enough time to get into a pvp ship and out of that mining ship, ready for action. With the ability to mine or rat safely, you then are able to spend time building said capital ships 'safely' ready of the next big fight. You cannot do that if no area is in a safe from drop zone (the result of this change). Industrialists being less safe, means less capitals built.

The less one can do that, the more likely you're just going to have to warp to station and stay docked up, when a big blue ball suddenly arrives on grid with no forewarning and you have no way of getting to your pvp fleet staging system.

So I see the change as actually upsetting that fine balance and will result ultimately in less capital fights than we have now, not more.



tl;dr goons want to keep ratting in supers


Not really, its about keeping the balance right between the two activities (PVP and PVE). Make it too easy to move capital fleets around the universe and we'll just end up back in the stoneage. Want to come harass us more easily, use BLOPs and wormholes so that those classes of ships, serve a purpose (T3s, Recon, Black ops, stealth bombers, etc). Otherwise, why bother with such ships when you can just throw 80 titans + standard fleets around willy nilly?
Elithiel en Gravonere
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#145 - 2016-10-12 08:05:37 UTC
Ruby Gnollo wrote:
Elithiel en Gravonere wrote:

I know it is probably changed by the CSM (who seem to do whatever it is PL tell them to do)


Well, some players spent a lot of time and effort to convince CCP that the CSM was one of the worst perils for the game, but it seems that success is yet to come. But as far as I can remember, Goonswarm Federation as a whole has yet to find a stance on that subject (your leader's opinion looks clear, but your failed HM yet has to get a grasp on the situation)


I think we've just resigned ourselves to the fact that we'll always be hated (Band of Brothers until now, not much has changed) and the minute we get good at a particular thing, tactic, strategy or otherwise, that will either get nerfed or Pandemic Legion will do their best to whinge to the CSM and in turn, change the goalposts. So in the end, we just adjust to the new situation and figure out a new innovation or invention to play our own game.

We are very clear on where we stand on the matter. We said that the metagame using gambling sites was bad for the game. We got ignored, we said that the CSM was bad for the game, we got ignored. We said a whole bunch of stuff, we got ignored. Now knowing that, this is the standard response to anything Goon, we simply have given up trying in that direction and instead, we just adapt. So number one is we just have to adjust with each random and out of the blue goalpost move.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#146 - 2016-10-12 08:40:13 UTC
Beffah wrote:
I feel like this thread is thanking CCP for basically nothing. 1 LY difference, with the added fatigue... we're literally getting nothing. This isn't going to speed moving caps around up, or add to the inherent risk of moving a cap, or basically change anything from what it is right now. Now you'll just be cooling your heels in a station a few systems further down the line, with the additional fatigue that distance gave you.


That's not what "literally" means.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2016-10-12 08:42:34 UTC
Literally actually does mean figuratively too these days. Webster updated definition in 2014.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#148 - 2016-10-12 15:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Aphatasis wrote:
Plz, think about making Jump Ranges for Caps and Super-Caps the same!

I'll remember the time wenn there were half a dozen different renges and it was just annoying. Plz don't go back this path!

No.
Please do keep the ranges different.
I remember the time when I had to open dotlan and figure out jump routes and it was fun. (It still is.)

SeVenNight Deng wrote:
you never see a supercap and tt blob without any Fax support right now, so for the most case, carrier and fax will still constraint in 6ly. We will like to see both super and normal carrier share the same ly, eg. 6.5ly.

You might have forgotten about it, but people also use FAXes and Dreads to support/escalate on a normal sub-capital fight.
Ruby Gnollo
#149 - 2016-10-12 18:21:01 UTC
Elithiel en Gravonere wrote:

We are very clear on where we stand on the matter. We said that the metagame using gambling sites was bad for the game. We got ignored, we said that the CSM was bad for the game, we got ignored. We said a whole bunch of stuff, we got ignored. Now knowing that, this is the standard response to anything Goon, we simply have given up trying in that direction and instead, we just adapt. So number one is we just have to adjust with each random and out of the blue goalpost move.


I'm really happy to hear that your 16.000 members will now play Eve Online with us instead of roleplaying in the CSM. New Eden is far nicer than RL.
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2016-10-12 19:06:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Keko Khaan
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Based on the discussions we had internally and then with the CSM at the recent summit, we're looking at increasing the base jump range of combat capitals for the Ascension expansion.


Thanks CCP and CSM. This annoucement makes me happy. I might even resub more of my accounts. Imho this is the right direction making EVE playable again Big smile
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#151 - 2016-10-12 19:23:30 UTC
Be aware that jump fatigue and reduction in jump range has revitalised small scale PvP. Way back it was unthinkable to use a capital in PvP without the real chance of being dropped by 100+ Archons.

Ignore the whiners and don't take eve back to the bad old days.
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#152 - 2016-10-12 22:46:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
Elithiel en Gravonere wrote:


Not really, its about keeping the balance right between the two activities (PVP and PVE). Make it too easy to move capital fleets around the universe and we'll just end up back in the stoneage. Want to come harass us more easily, use BLOPs and wormholes so that those classes of ships, serve a purpose (T3s, Recon, Black ops, stealth bombers, etc). Otherwise, why bother with such ships when you can just throw 80 titans + standard fleets around willy nilly?



Lol you drop 10 titans vs any blops fleet that dares to drop on one of your carriers so it doesn't make sense for you to call people do wh roams and blopsing in your space.

I actually went and checked last time you lost ratting carriers and it is October 1st the last time we (Bombers Bar) went to your space. So while I'm not saying its impossible I think it takes more expertise than it needs to be taking to kill your ratting carriers without capitals, and that kind of expertise only belongs to a few groups in game. CCP should at least make mobile cyno inhibs relevant again since even you are not entitled to %100 safe ratting just because you have your supercap alts and you carry cynoes on your carriers.

But from the perspective of the blops groups you were talking about, the changes even increase your capability because they will give you more territory to be able to counterdrop your titans from their staging, so we end up defending the status quo.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#153 - 2016-10-13 02:44:27 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Aphatasis wrote:
Plz, think about making Jump Ranges for Caps and Super-Caps the same!

I'll remember the time wenn there were half a dozen different renges and it was just annoying. Plz don't go back this path!

No.
Please do keep the ranges different.
I remember the time when I had to open dotlan and figure out jump routes and it was fun. (It still is.)

SeVenNight Deng wrote:
you never see a supercap and tt blob without any Fax support right now, so for the most case, carrier and fax will still constraint in 6ly. We will like to see both super and normal carrier share the same ly, eg. 6.5ly.

You might have forgotten about it, but people also use FAXes and Dreads to support/escalate on a normal sub-capital fight.

Very true - Faxes, Dreads and Carriers are used to compliment subcap fleets -
Which can only be bridged as far as a Titan can jump, IE; 6LY.

The usable increase in range for fleets going into combat coming in November is - 1LY - the extra 1LY afforded Faxe's Dread's & Carrier's, will only be useful when your staging or moving to a new location for any reason.

It nearly gives back suitcase carriers (faxes and dreads).
Leave your current nulsec corp for greener pastures, it will now only take you a week to get your stuff out, instead of a week and a half.
I suppose that is no longer relevant, with Devs designing everything to be stagnant, I mean static; The ability to move from place to place to fight someone will be completely removed once pos's are taken out of the game, so may as well get used to a static lifestyle.

It is a shame Devs can't see how much better Eve could be, if only you could get around it to find and fight targets. I don't mean just a quick raid through a WH, I mean staging forces in enemy territory and going to war - Unfortunately with the way Citadels work (or more so, don't for this), the large groups will just get larger and PL/NC can keep renting out nulsec to those they see as worthy.
Eve - Working as intended

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
GROUND XERO
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#154 - 2016-10-13 06:02:57 UTC
Of course the more active guys in here are those who are holding Supers etc. But again we don´t need any kind of buff of the super blobb....

- it is harming sub cap fights....
- and power projection of sov will be more decreased ( unless you buff sov mechanics to give sov holder faster moving caps, supers to project their infrastructure through the sov! like more range and less fatique!)


WE DON`T NEED THE SUPER BLOBB! :_) esp. not when the are moving faster!


NCPL (Necromonger of new Eden) will make EVE great again!
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#155 - 2016-10-13 09:42:41 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
What do you all think would be the result of swapping the changes? That is, give the supers the longer distance. That would generate some edge cases where supers could be utilized but they'd be entirely without dread and FAX support. Could make for some interesting decisions by the attackers. (Of course, could entirely ruin the game - I'm just musing here.)


Since CCP have thoughtfully reintroduced tracking Titans and anti-subcap DDs, and also made fighters total helldeath against subcaps, Supercaps are now strictly superior to standard caps. They don't need cap support. In large numbers, they barely need subcap support.


Yeah...

I mean, there's some nuance missing. At least now we don't have combat refitting and the guns are huge so you don't just have a Titan that can swap from anti-cap to anti-Subcap on a whim.

Also Fighters aren't complete sub-cap death after the last round to tweaks, which is good.

That said, in an even-numbers fight, there is very little reason to have people in non-specialized subcaps over Capitals or Supercaps now.



Malcanis is right, in sufficiently large numbers they're pretty much only stoppable by a larger super force.

A carrier is not subcap death after the changes, but a supercarrier very much is. An aeon can happily sit at 24 million EHP and still project 5800 DPS to a subcap, all of which applies better than a high angled dread.

Apex force is still very much a thing, we may not have perma tanking until downtime, but the need to do so also is not really there because supers can haze subcaps so hard without an iota of subcap support being required. The gap between a capital and a super these days isn't far away from an ibis vs a tengu.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#156 - 2016-10-13 09:48:26 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
You might have forgotten about it, but people also use FAXes and Dreads to support/escalate on a normal sub-capital fight.

Very true - Faxes, Dreads and Carriers are used to compliment subcap fleets -
Which can only be bridged as far as a Titan can jump, IE; 6LY.

The usable increase in range for fleets going into combat coming in November is - 1LY - the extra 1LY afforded Faxe's Dread's & Carrier's, will only be useful when your staging or moving to a new location for any reason.

Holy crap! Dude!
Sub capital fleet can fly by gates. Surprised?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#157 - 2016-10-13 10:14:18 UTC
To me, the real problem with jump fatigue is on long moving operations. It takes painfully long and there are long periods of waiting in between. Sometimes there are horrible chokepoints, but there is a more elegant solution for that. Leave the range at 5 LY. Adjust the map if you want to give people more real options.

As I look at these new ranges, I see that the Drones Region is still effectively isolated, while other areas are now slightly more accessible. Why? You need to open up that farmers' paradise. It needs some shorter access points and NPC space.

For Capitals, I'd suggest raising the red bar to 20 minutes per jump and removing the blue bar completely. Once you jump into a system, you are only getting out quickly via gate. If you are trying to third party a fight 15 LY away, it's going to take you an hour to get there without taking gates. You can still make it to B-R, but it becomes more painful to go superblob some random dudes having a small capital fight on the other side of the map. If you are a small group on a large moving operation, you can cover 15 LY/ hour, instead of 5 LY/hour.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#158 - 2016-10-13 14:10:28 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
You might have forgotten about it, but people also use FAXes and Dreads to support/escalate on a normal sub-capital fight.

Very true - Faxes, Dreads and Carriers are used to compliment subcap fleets -
Which can only be bridged as far as a Titan can jump, IE; 6LY.

The usable increase in range for fleets going into combat coming in November is - 1LY - the extra 1LY afforded Faxe's Dread's & Carrier's, will only be useful when your staging or moving to a new location for any reason.

Holy crap! Dude!
Sub capital fleet can fly by gates. Surprised?

LOL, of course they "can" but then that gives away a lot of strategy and tactics - Why do you think groups use cynos and jump in with blops and use titan bridges in the first place. (hint; it's not because they are lazy)


"Go by gates" - So simple it makes me think, you've never been out of highsec. 10 jumps via gates, 15 minutes? 1 jump through a titan bridge, 15 seconds? Which is the best option for joining a fight?

Just because something can be done the obvious way, doesn't mean it is the most practical or strategic.

I'd even go for Titan bridging to be extended to the same range (7LY) as other capitals but keep the one LY less jump range. Getting supers to a fight should require a little more planning, where as getting subcaps there should be as fast and efficient as getting Dreads and Carriers in place.
Capital ships were balanced to require subcap support - That support shouldn't be limited, it should be encouraged - To encourage fights. If capitals can't jump in until subcaps get there, many opportunities for a fight will not be met.

"They can go by gates" is a simplistic response to a complex problem.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#159 - 2016-10-13 14:48:57 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
"Go by gates" - So simple it makes me think, you've never been out of highsec. 10 jumps via gates, 15 minutes? 1 jump through a titan bridge, 15 seconds? Which is the best option for joining a fight?

Yes, I have been out of hisec.
Yes, I have been sitting on a Titan for 3 hours straight.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'd even go for Titan bridging to be extended to the same range (7LY) as other capitals but keep the one LY less jump range. Getting supers to a fight should require a little more planning, where as getting subcaps there should be as fast and efficient as getting Dreads and Carriers in place.

And while sitting on a Titan for hours I was a part of a support fleet that was covering Dreads and Carriers (and supers for that matter) that were grinding sov or RFing towers. No, I dont want it back.

If you're doing stratop - get your support in first, then drop caps. Not the other way round.
On the other hand, if you're doing a roam or some other subcap thingy - you should be able to escalate it.
But you shouldnt be able to super-escalate at a whim. Super are strategic assets and must require more planning - at least we agree at this.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#160 - 2016-10-13 15:26:00 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
"Go by gates" - So simple it makes me think, you've never been out of highsec. 10 jumps via gates, 15 minutes? 1 jump through a titan bridge, 15 seconds? Which is the best option for joining a fight?

Yes, I have been out of hisec.
Yes, I have been sitting on a Titan for 3 hours straight.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'd even go for Titan bridging to be extended to the same range (7LY) as other capitals but keep the one LY less jump range. Getting supers to a fight should require a little more planning, where as getting subcaps there should be as fast and efficient as getting Dreads and Carriers in place.

And while sitting on a Titan for hours I was a part of a support fleet that was covering Dreads and Carriers (and supers for that matter) that were grinding sov or RFing towers. No, I dont want it back.

If you're doing stratop - get your support in first, then drop caps. Not the other way round.
On the other hand, if you're doing a roam or some other subcap thingy - you should be able to escalate it.
But you shouldnt be able to super-escalate at a whim. Super are strategic assets and must require more planning - at least we agree at this.

Not everyone lives in boring sec space (nul) - Some of us live in lowsec, where being able to respond quickly and strategically counts.
If someone is hitting a pos you own or a Citadel that is not in your home system, the 10 or 15 minutes it takes to gate it with subs can mean, no fight at all. Just a reinforce timer.

Yes sometimes escalating a subcap roam by dropping caps can be an option, other times you want your caps and subcaps to arrive together - 3rd partying, super tackled and many other reasons where tactics and strategy count.
Even when contesting a Citadel or a simple pos bash, you often don't want subcaps gating it there - You really don't want to advertise the fact - Your on your way to a fight.

Different play styles in different locations, call for different strategies and tactics.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.