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[ASCENSION] Jump Range Changes

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Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#121 - 2016-10-11 21:18:31 UTC
AllMappedOut wrote:
the real issue (choke points, eg: Aridia)

Ah, those spooky -LSH- crabs!
Did you know how Goons have moved their supercap fleet all the way from the North to the South through your Aridia and beyond, while hordes of PL/NC only managed to grab a single titan kill? Which was presumably reimbursed, because they used an exploit.
Moving capitals now is safer than ever.
Lexx Devi
Freeport . 7
#122 - 2016-10-11 21:21:44 UTC
That's scary, when taking in to account that this will bloom offensive actions.
Good for content, 1 years of Manufacturing Citadels/Rorquals, Capital ships are going to outnumbering power blocks.

Taking eve moto in to account i'm surprised Titans & Supers don't keep 5AU to keep it more predictable making counter intelligence a continuous meta, Risk to use yes but a power worth the usage.

7AU FAX, Carriers, Dreads, Yess it's going to help everyone, & this is the content eve needs at this age.

Im suppriced Titans dont get to:
*Keep 5AU Jumprange.
*Gain 7 or 10 AU Bridging range.

Again EvE MOTO: Risk and Reward.
If a offensive strike get bridged to 7-10AU the titan will not be able to swoop in & save.
It's a powerful bridge, but if the offencive goes wrong they need a safe hub or risk retreating where the risk comes in.

CSM is doing a awesome.
Still they are the most likely 1% elite & are still human looking what long term may favour them.
There's always exceptions to, keep in mind nothing is Just Black & White.
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#123 - 2016-10-11 21:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
Malcanis wrote:

Since CCP have thoughtfully reintroduced tracking Titans and anti-subcap DDs, and also made fighters total helldeath against subcaps, Supercaps are now strictly superior to standard caps. They don't need cap support. In large numbers, they barely need subcap support.


Yeah it totally blows that the average T1 cruiser can't instapop a supercap with its anti-capital doomsday Roll

On the other hand, supercaps die all the time subcap gangs, and also come with a lot of downsides that most subcap pilots underestimate. The 5LY jump range being one of those downsides was excessively constrictive and needed to change. CCP will not allow the old days of instant projection across New Eden to return (even capital pilots don't want that because we don't want PL up on us anytime we log in), so people can calm down now - this is simply a QOL change.
Grognard Commissar
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#124 - 2016-10-11 21:30:56 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
As a member of a small alliance, i think there's changes are bad for the game. PL/NC need to have their jump range nerves not buffed.

How am i supposed to rat in safety in my Nyx

you mean erebus, right?
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#125 - 2016-10-11 22:09:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
Joe Barbarian wrote:
Olmeca Gold wrote:
While capital pilots rejoice with these news there are several downsides of this change regarding hotdrop/non-consensual PvP aspect of this game which I think will definitely get overlooked.

1) Alliances with too many capitals/capital alts will be able to secure/cover more space to make it %100 safe for nullsec ratting. For example, right now if you drop on a ratting ship in Delve you will get 15+ faxes, carriers, supers and titans on you, which are alt characters that these people have on stand by. Well at least we were able to target systems outside their range. Now there will not be such a system. Mind you there is no counter to this at all. If you drop your own supers the other side will just escalate. Then you need a super force that can beat the other side. Not only this is classic N+1, but it does not make sense asking the whaler to move a competent capital force just to kill a ratter ship every single time, even if the whaler had such a force, which she doesn't, because these forces are privy to big sov holding nullsec entities to begin with.

I don't think these alliances are entitled to %100 safe ratting because they have a sheer capital force. If you want to have increased capital jump range, to balance this I would at least make Mobile Cynosural Inhibitors relevant again, giving it let's say a 20 seconds anchor timer, relevant tank to survive a little bit (lets say 10 seconds - around 50k ehp) vs carrier fighters and very importantly the ability to cancel ongoing cynoes.

2) Jumprange was one most important exclusive ability of BLOPS ships. Not the fatigue reduction, because you can always wait after a hotdrop. BLOPS ships are now relatively obsolete. Whalers will prefer dropping carriers on people's carriers or rattlesnakes. Why is this bad? Because it takes entry level to an advanced whaling group into carrier level skills, and BLOPS were meant to be the ships which drop behind enemy lines, snatch a target quickly, and get safe. Not carriers.

-------

[Bitter whaler rant mode on] But these will be overlooked, because these alliances are organized to make their voice most heard and have the most influence on Eve policy and capital pilots outnumber BLOPS pilots. Our posts will get downvoted to hell and ignored as always because we (whalers) are a minority vs nullsec entities, and we are worse in metagaming (upvoting stuff, going for CSM, posting on reddit, making memes) since we prefer playing the game. [/Bitter whaler rant mode off]


Every ratting carrier is a bait carrier. Stop biting we'll stop dropping.

I'll +1 CCPs change and wait for the next bout of jump changes that are sure to come.


Dont get cocky :). We still somehow kill much more than we lose in your space. But thats really how it should be. You get dank ticks you gotta pay the tax.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.
Beffah
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2016-10-11 22:13:24 UTC
I feel like this thread is thanking CCP for basically nothing. 1 LY difference, with the added fatigue... we're literally getting nothing. This isn't going to speed moving caps around up, or add to the inherent risk of moving a cap, or basically change anything from what it is right now. Now you'll just be cooling your heels in a station a few systems further down the line, with the additional fatigue that distance gave you.
Dabigredboat
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2016-10-11 22:32:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dabigredboat
Beffah wrote:
I feel like this thread is thanking CCP for basically nothing. 1 LY difference, with the added fatigue... we're literally getting nothing. This isn't going to speed moving caps around up, or add to the inherent risk of moving a cap, or basically change anything from what it is right now. Now you'll just be cooling your heels in a station a few systems further down the line, with the additional fatigue that distance gave you.


Now beffah, I understand that you can be easily confused on why having a low jump distance is important and why adding 1ly might not seem like much.

But let me try to come down and explain why this is huge. If you have a look at dotlan jump ranges, going from 5 LY to 7 LY and from 5 LY to 6 LY means that a few really BAD choke-points can be completely ignored and helps the average capital pilot who does not have 100s of supers and titans on standby to assist get around gate-camps. Also regions like Fountain, which can take up to 4 jumps to cross right now can finally be reduced to 3 jumps or less depending on system choice.

With you being in PL now, I can see where you would want MORE and MORE for your cap loving brothers, but the rest of us small guys in eve enjoy not having capitals shoved in our face whenever we go roaming around.

I am extremely happy at the work CCPL is doing to try and bring about minor fixes without breaking the rule of "**** capitals going across eve or ruining small warfare in far off systems.'
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#128 - 2016-10-11 22:34:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
Beffah wrote:
I feel like this thread is thanking CCP for basically nothing. 1 LY difference, with the added fatigue... we're literally getting nothing. This isn't going to speed moving caps around up, or add to the inherent risk of moving a cap, or basically change anything from what it is right now. Now you'll just be cooling your heels in a station a few systems further down the line, with the additional fatigue that distance gave you.


I feel like the change was supposed to be for individual capital pilots or small forces to avoid chokepoints etc, rather than enabling major null entities like yours moving their capitals easier, which was agreed to be a problem anyway when fatigue was first introduced.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#129 - 2016-10-11 22:38:25 UTC
Dabigredboat wrote:
but the rest of us small guys in eve enjoy not having capitals shoved in our face whenever we go roaming around.


Goons small now this just in :)

If you really want that can you please tell your people stop dropping 10 titans each time we catch a ratting carrier in Delve?

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.
Raz Keriz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2016-10-11 22:53:24 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Based on the discussions we had internally and then with the CSM at the recent summit, we're looking at increasing the base jump range of combat capitals for the Ascension expansion.


Goals
  • Reintroduce a natural path for capital combat to escalate.
  • Differentiate the power projection of Capitals and Super-Capitals.
  • Allow alternative logistics and force projection paths into space that is currently very difficult to access.
  • Open up chokepoints and allow jump paths to be a little less predictable.


Changes
  • All Capitals (Carriers, Force Auxillaries, Dreadnoughts) have their base jump range increased to 3.5 (+1) light years (7 (+2) light years max skills)
  • All Super-Capitals (Supercarriers, Titans) have their base jump & bridge range increased to 3 (+0.5) light years (6 (+1) light years max skills)


We hope this change will alleviate some of the problems capital pilots are currently facing. This is only an incremental change, as we said at Fanfest we believe that the capital force projection system needs further work.


Thx CCP Ncpl
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#131 - 2016-10-11 23:38:03 UTC
Oh come on. Remove SOME Jump Aids. I don't mind having the reduced range from Phoebe. But the fatigue? FML.

But thanks (I suppose) for giving back a wee bit of range. I'm not sure yet whether I agree or disagree with the different ranges by capital yet, but at least we got a little bit of that reacharound I had originally asked for.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...
Dabigredboat
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2016-10-11 23:46:46 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:
Dabigredboat wrote:
but the rest of us small guys in eve enjoy not having capitals shoved in our face whenever we go roaming around.


Goons small now this just in :)

If you really want that can you please tell your people stop dropping 10 titans each time we catch a ratting carrier in Delve?


Well you see those are just ratting titans. If we had really dropped some dudes to help them you would have seen more I think. I swear some people have no niceness.
Bailian Moxtain
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#133 - 2016-10-12 00:02:52 UTC
This is a great step in the right direction. Im sure this has been posted in the thread already, but I'll post it anyways; https://blog.skyride.org/1ly-isnt-a-big-difference/. Range for supers and capitals should be the same. Its not like its going to break the game and the fatigue as you said wont be changed which slows down rapid movement. The best part about phoebe was same ranges for all combat capitals which made it easy to calculate routes. Wish fatigue also was changed to 60min for max jump as its still a pretty lame mechanic even though I totally understand why phoebe was necessary. Its still a little too harsh imo (being lazy and all). GJ for finally doing something about this spaceaids
StainLessStealRat
State War Academy
Caldari State
#134 - 2016-10-12 02:16:59 UTC
Thanks Dirk!!
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2016-10-12 02:19:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelob
So...this doesn't solve the inherent "black hole" issue with caps that currently exists atm. It is still going to be very painful to move caps and punishes cap pilots for moving. Big alliances with big cap fleets like PL/NCDOT/GOONS/TEST are still effectively invulnerable, but instead of having a 5ly sphere of 0wn, we now have a 6/7 ly sphere of 0wn. Anyone coming into our sphere can expect to basically instantly die to a hotdrop, with virtually 0 fear of ever being counter-dropped. Anyone trying to move caps to pull off a gank like that effectively needs to have a big capital presence, is very tightnit (no spies) and a few days to setup. (There are very few groups in EVE that can do this)

If I understand this correctly, it just makes the whole black hole issue even worse. Shocked Not that I personally really have any issues with that, being in PL, but I think long term it isn't good for the health of the game. It is just going to force more people out of nullsec/into renting alliances for fear of being stomped on. If one of the above groups comes into your area of nullsec, and you're relatively small by comparison, you really don't have a whole lot of options other then to either pay a ransom or just bail into npc/lowsec space.

Also, that's some ****-tier trolling dbrb.

edit: For those wondering, big alliances like PL effectively have a "black hole" effect in their immediate vicinity, in that anyone within capital range of them can expect to be wiped out, with there being very little/any recourse.
Elithiel en Gravonere
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#136 - 2016-10-12 04:06:30 UTC
I don't think this change is at all necessary.

I know it is probably changed by the CSM (who seem to do whatever it is PL tell them to do) because it then makes it easier for the former MBC alliances to come after us down in Delve (negating one of the main reasons why Goonswarm Federation chose the region as our new home as being hard to get at).

Besides that reason for the change (which I disagree with as it favours certain roaming capital alliances like Pandemic Legion), the other main question is, do we really need to change it given the enormous number of capital fleet battles we're already seeing day upon day in Eve already? Is the system balanced enough? Yes, I think so, the market is making enough capitals and supers to keep up with losses sustained by alliances in these big cap fleet battles already.

Introducing this change may see more battles but will upset that fine balance we already have between PVE and PvP. PVE goes up when an area is relatively 'safe' and goes down when an area is unsafe. As someone who splits their time about 50%/50% between the play styles, I find it nice for a change to have regions that cannot be easily dropped upon by a random enemy capital fleet, giving enough time to get into a pvp ship and out of that mining ship, ready for action. With the ability to mine or rat safely, you then are able to spend time building said capital ships 'safely' ready of the next big fight. You cannot do that if no area is in a safe from drop zone (the result of this change). Industrialists being less safe, means less capitals built.

The less one can do that, the more likely you're just going to have to warp to station and stay docked up, when a big blue ball suddenly arrives on grid with no forewarning and you have no way of getting to your pvp fleet staging system.

So I see the change as actually upsetting that fine balance and will result ultimately in less capital fights than we have now, not more.
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#137 - 2016-10-12 04:14:10 UTC
Elithiel en Gravonere wrote:
I don't think this change is at all necessary.

I know it is probably changed by the CSM (who seem to do whatever it is PL tell them to do) because it then makes it easier for the former MBC alliances to come after us down in Delve (negating one of the main reasons why Goonswarm Federation chose the region as our new home as being hard to get at).

Besides that reason for the change (which I disagree with as it favours certain roaming capital alliances like Pandemic Legion), the other main question is, do we really need to change it given the enormous number of capital fleet battles we're already seeing day upon day in Eve already? Is the system balanced enough? Yes, I think so, the market is making enough capitals and supers to keep up with losses sustained by alliances in these big cap fleet battles already.

Introducing this change may see more battles but will upset that fine balance we already have between PVE and PvP. PVE goes up when an area is relatively 'safe' and goes down when an area is unsafe. As someone who splits their time about 50%/50% between the play styles, I find it nice for a change to have regions that cannot be easily dropped upon by a random enemy capital fleet, giving enough time to get into a pvp ship and out of that mining ship, ready for action. With the ability to mine or rat safely, you then are able to spend time building said capital ships 'safely' ready of the next big fight. You cannot do that if no area is in a safe from drop zone (the result of this change). Industrialists being less safe, means less capitals built.

The less one can do that, the more likely you're just going to have to warp to station and stay docked up, when a big blue ball suddenly arrives on grid with no forewarning and you have no way of getting to your pvp fleet staging system.

So I see the change as actually upsetting that fine balance and will result ultimately in less capital fights than we have now, not more.



tl;dr goons want to keep ratting in supers
Noga Taranogas
Doomheim
#138 - 2016-10-12 05:09:06 UTC
don't change a damn thing, but add a new thing. XL Jump Drive Augmenter for carriers, faux, titans, supers, dreads, freighters, blops that provides +3 LY jump range but polarizes their shield, armor, hull, fighters and bomber, and halves their weapons/effects/etc/warp speed/alignment... for 30 minutes. Allows you to move stuff further for logistics and staging, but with increased risk -discourages long range combat jumps.
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#139 - 2016-10-12 05:27:04 UTC
It's not the 13 I used to enjoy, but it's better than only 5.
Aphatasis
Free Carpenters Union
#140 - 2016-10-12 05:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Aphatasis
Plz, think about making Jump Ranges for Caps and Super-Caps the same!

I'll remember the time wenn there were half a dozen different renges and it was just annoying. Plz don't go back this path!

EDIT:
Like the change btw, there are so many bottlenecks all over New Eden with 5 LY. Think 7 LY would remove a lot of them!
Also there are some spot you have to go a multiple time of the straight way cause there are just not enough low sec systems:
Just look at that Dotlan-Link: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Archon,555/Mamet:Gehi