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[November] Orca Changes

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JanSVK
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#181 - 2016-10-09 10:07:28 UTC
I like the boost to he ORCA.

I just a few notes and suggestions

suggestion:
1, Reduce the orcas Packed size so we could transport it in a JF. Right now the only way to transport this ship is via Titan/POS bridge or gates..

note:
2, With his the ORCA will become the new AFK miner. Mackinaw MK III.
rondoLV
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Pandemic Horde
#182 - 2016-10-09 10:37:45 UTC
I only have one sugestion.
Let the Orca finaly Compres Ore
Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
#183 - 2016-10-10 13:19:30 UTC
PhosGate wrote:
These drones will be over 200mil each

Last time I checked the market even Harvester Drones weren't that expensive. And those only reached the 150+m ISK level because they were limited. That's going to change.

Augmented Mining Drones should pretty soon™ be at the same level as Augmented Hobgoblins are.
They yield 9% more than T2 drones. No way they'll be 1000% above T2 drones in price for 9% more yield.

If you are wasting sec and a Trasher to kill 20m ISK in drones you are welcome.

But I think you are talking about the ‘Excavator’ Mining Superdrones which should be 200+m ISK if a single one can yield exhumer levels.
Unfortunately you won't see them in Highsec as they can only be used on a Rorqual - and there are zero Rorqual in Highsec.
Even Chribba won't be able to use them on his Veldnaught.
Uhdana Di'Clutz
Drifter Inc.
#184 - 2016-10-10 13:35:28 UTC
Love the changes. Agree with others though. The one change missing that I was hoping for was the ability to compress ore in belt. Someone mentioned the idea of an module that ran off of charges. Yes please. I would equip something like that in a heartbeat. High slot that could hold enough charges to last the same total amount of time as a fully loaded command burst module.
Jin Kugu
Make Luv Not War
Goonswarm Federation
#185 - 2016-10-10 14:04:17 UTC
I do like these feedback threads with no dev interaction at all. It causes threads to degrade rapidly into useless drivel allowing those same devs to just ignore all the feedback given.
Amak Boma
Dragon Factory
xX SERENITY Xx
#186 - 2016-10-10 17:57:13 UTC
give orca single strip miner . this will make them more powerful
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2016-10-10 19:06:08 UTC
Given what's already proposed they don't really need any more power.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#188 - 2016-10-11 00:31:59 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Given what's already proposed they don't really need any more power.

"Balance" combined with optimal use, the Orca doesn't need mining drones over a way to compress ore.
I'd much rather have the ability to compress ore for miners in my fleet, than use drones to pull ore.

The Orca is a command ship, let it be the best it can be at the ONE thing it is designed for (aside from boosting), hauling ore - Compression module..

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#189 - 2016-10-11 00:38:17 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Given what's already proposed they don't really need any more power.

"Balance" combined with optimal use, the Orca doesn't need mining drones over a way to compress ore.
I'd much rather have the ability to compress ore for miners in my fleet, than use drones to pull ore.

The Orca is a command ship, let it be the best it can be at the ONE thing it is designed for (aside from boosting), hauling ore - Compression module..

It pretty much is the best at that save the ships designed to beat it in capacity. Short of a freighter/rorq there isn't anything I'm aware of that can haul that much ore.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#190 - 2016-10-11 04:16:49 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Given what's already proposed they don't really need any more power.

"Balance" combined with optimal use, the Orca doesn't need mining drones over a way to compress ore.
I'd much rather have the ability to compress ore for miners in my fleet, than use drones to pull ore.

The Orca is a command ship, let it be the best it can be at the ONE thing it is designed for (aside from boosting), hauling ore - Compression module..

It pretty much is the best at that save the ships designed to beat it in capacity. Short of a freighter/rorq there isn't anything I'm aware of that can haul that much ore.
And right there is the whole issue, having to mine with a freighter on grid is just wrong but unless you want to lose 5 to 8 minutes of mining efficiency every 15 minutes or so, it is what will need to happen.

In reality, the new Orca holds around 20K more than a max space fit Orca does now. It's 100K more if you continue to fit for max space, or around 7 minutes of on grid time (not a lot of time).

Of course the larger the mining fleet, the less time the Orca has till it's full.. I am using my small fleet as an example, so on grid times will vary a lot. Doubling that time by giving the Orca compression ability, 1 means more ore mined for time on grid, 2 higher value ganks with more ore in the victims hold.

It would also help for mining anoms or even just belts in un-stationed back water systems. No-one is going to put up a citadel to go mining in a lucrative spot for a day or 2, right now I use pos's. Up in an hour, online compression array, move miners in, mine what I want, pull pos down and move on.

It would be a small concession that could vastly improve the QoL for roaming miners, like me.

Purely selfish reasoning but then Eve is a selfish game.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Dieter Ottenbach
Ottenbach Industries LTD
#191 - 2016-10-11 05:02:41 UTC
I like most of the changes. However I'm a little concerned over the 22.5 km base AoE (Orca). Occasionally I do have separations of 30-40 km. 22km zone edge is really going to be a new PITA and too close when considering multiple mining barges that you naturally will want to spread across the belt as far as possible - each with a laser range increased to about 18km now, hmmm) It takes leveling up through all 5 lvl on 3 separate skill sets to eventually increase the AoE to ~46.75 km (without implants). Doable but like I said, starting out it might be a PITA.

Also, I keep seeing references by people saying one has to now continually re-boost (manually clicking). However I don't see any justification for this assumption (if that's what they are). Cycle time is about 1 minute, but nothing I've seen indicates they will not auto-cycle (and I think they should as a matter of principle). I'll just say it here now, if the boost for mining doesn't auto-cycle that WILL SUCK!!






Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#192 - 2016-10-11 05:53:31 UTC
Dieter Ottenbach wrote:
I like most of the changes. However I'm a little concerned over the 22.5 km base AoE (Orca). Occasionally I do have separations of 30-40 km. 22km zone edge is really going to be a new PITA and too close when considering multiple mining barges that you naturally will want to spread across the belt as far as possible - each with a laser range increased to about 18km now, hmmm) It takes leveling up through all 5 lvl on 3 separate skill sets to eventually increase the AoE to ~46.75 km (without implants). Doable but like I said, starting out it might be a PITA.

Also, I keep seeing references by people saying one has to now continually re-boost (manually clicking). However I don't see any justification for this assumption (if that's what they are). Cycle time is about 1 minute, but nothing I've seen indicates they will not auto-cycle (and I think they should as a matter of principle). I'll just say it here now, if the boost for mining doesn't auto-cycle that WILL SUCK!!

Use mid-grade harvest implants for your miners and a laser field boost for the orca and the laser range will increase to over 30 km on ore and over 20 km on ice. With ORE harvester it increases to 39/27km.
And when i read the burst data correct, it will be even more in movember.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2016-10-11 05:59:51 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Given what's already proposed they don't really need any more power.

"Balance" combined with optimal use, the Orca doesn't need mining drones over a way to compress ore.
I'd much rather have the ability to compress ore for miners in my fleet, than use drones to pull ore.

The Orca is a command ship, let it be the best it can be at the ONE thing it is designed for (aside from boosting), hauling ore - Compression module..

It pretty much is the best at that save the ships designed to beat it in capacity. Short of a freighter/rorq there isn't anything I'm aware of that can haul that much ore.
And right there is the whole issue, having to mine with a freighter on grid is just wrong but unless you want to lose 5 to 8 minutes of mining efficiency every 15 minutes or so, it is what will need to happen.

In reality, the new Orca holds around 20K more than a max space fit Orca does now. It's 100K more if you continue to fit for max space, or around 7 minutes of on grid time (not a lot of time).

Of course the larger the mining fleet, the less time the Orca has till it's full.. I am using my small fleet as an example, so on grid times will vary a lot. Doubling that time by giving the Orca compression ability, 1 means more ore mined for time on grid, 2 higher value ganks with more ore in the victims hold.

It would also help for mining anoms or even just belts in un-stationed back water systems. No-one is going to put up a citadel to go mining in a lucrative spot for a day or 2, right now I use pos's. Up in an hour, online compression array, move miners in, mine what I want, pull pos down and move on.

It would be a small concession that could vastly improve the QoL for roaming miners, like me.

Purely selfish reasoning but then Eve is a selfish game.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I'm coming up with ~190k total orca space currently while fully expanded. The new one gives 220k base, which is a 30k increase. Further expansion can get you another ~50k, making a total potential increase of about 80k.

I can certainly see how it helps, but I'm not sure the idea of a > 100x increase in mineral capacity is intended here or can be considered balanced even without the mining capacities. Not with the hold going up anyways.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#194 - 2016-10-11 08:59:30 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Given what's already proposed they don't really need any more power.

"Balance" combined with optimal use, the Orca doesn't need mining drones over a way to compress ore.
I'd much rather have the ability to compress ore for miners in my fleet, than use drones to pull ore.

The Orca is a command ship, let it be the best it can be at the ONE thing it is designed for (aside from boosting), hauling ore - Compression module..

It pretty much is the best at that save the ships designed to beat it in capacity. Short of a freighter/rorq there isn't anything I'm aware of that can haul that much ore.
And right there is the whole issue, having to mine with a freighter on grid is just wrong but unless you want to lose 5 to 8 minutes of mining efficiency every 15 minutes or so, it is what will need to happen.

In reality, the new Orca holds around 20K more than a max space fit Orca does now. It's 100K more if you continue to fit for max space, or around 7 minutes of on grid time (not a lot of time).

Of course the larger the mining fleet, the less time the Orca has till it's full.. I am using my small fleet as an example, so on grid times will vary a lot. Doubling that time by giving the Orca compression ability, 1 means more ore mined for time on grid, 2 higher value ganks with more ore in the victims hold.

It would also help for mining anoms or even just belts in un-stationed back water systems. No-one is going to put up a citadel to go mining in a lucrative spot for a day or 2, right now I use pos's. Up in an hour, online compression array, move miners in, mine what I want, pull pos down and move on.

It would be a small concession that could vastly improve the QoL for roaming miners, like me.

Purely selfish reasoning but then Eve is a selfish game.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I'm coming up with ~190k total orca space currently while fully expanded. The new one gives 220k base, which is a 30k increase. Further expansion can get you another ~50k, making a total potential increase of about 80k.

I can certainly see how it helps, but I'm not sure the idea of a > 100x increase in mineral capacity is intended here or can be considered balanced even without the mining capacities. Not with the hold going up anyways.

I'll put it in nice easy English. Right now I run a max cargo Orca because it sits in a pos for 90% of its time so is at little risk. Come November, I won't be sitting in lowsec with a max cargo Orca now forced to sit on grid. So all in all I gain 30K from the increased ore hold AND lose my boosts for longer on each trip to the pos.
(unless of course boosting is changing so it can be active while the Booster is in warp)
This gets even worse once pos's are removed and if Devs don't get it right now, by then it will be too late. The Orca won't get another balance pass.


While currently, the only time I am not boosting is while in warp, come November I am losing at least 4 mins out of every 20 or +12 minutes (nearly an Orca load) every hour in productivity.

+30K per load (from 14 to +-19 minutes to fill orca) minus 12 minutes per hour unable to boost - I go from 3.5 orca loads per hour to 2 and a bit.
NB; I used to have a dedicated freighter alt to haul but it is not viable isk wise, there just isn't enough profit to afford another alt that isn't able to produce income.

Bottom line, if i can't find a way to make up the loss of productivity due to being forced to have my orca on grid (for no real gain but a lot more risk) - I just unsub all my miners and other industrial characters, go back to running lvl 5's to make isk for my main and be done with it.

Most industrial efforts are undertaken by small groups or individuals with a few (or lots) of alts. If these changes cost too much in productivity, those individuals will look elsewhere to spend their time. Probably outside eve as most industrialists have no inclination to do anything else.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Sitting Bull Lakota
Poppins and Company
#195 - 2016-10-11 09:55:16 UTC
O.O
That is a lot of versatility packed into one hull.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2016-10-11 18:34:11 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'll put it in nice easy English. Right now I run a max cargo Orca because it sits in a pos for 90% of its time so is at little risk. Come November, I won't be sitting in lowsec with a max cargo Orca now forced to sit on grid. So all in all I gain 30K from the increased ore hold AND lose my boosts for longer on each trip to the pos.
(unless of course boosting is changing so it can be active while the Booster is in warp)
This gets even worse once pos's are removed and if Devs don't get it right now, by then it will be too late. The Orca won't get another balance pass.


While currently, the only time I am not boosting is while in warp, come November I am losing at least 4 mins out of every 20 or +12 minutes (nearly an Orca load) every hour in productivity.

+30K per load (from 14 to +-19 minutes to fill orca) minus 12 minutes per hour unable to boost - I go from 3.5 orca loads per hour to 2 and a bit.
NB; I used to have a dedicated freighter alt to haul but it is not viable isk wise, there just isn't enough profit to afford another alt that isn't able to produce income.

Bottom line, if i can't find a way to make up the loss of productivity due to being forced to have my orca on grid (for no real gain but a lot more risk) - I just unsub all my miners and other industrial characters, go back to running lvl 5's to make isk for my main and be done with it.

Most industrial efforts are undertaken by small groups or individuals with a few (or lots) of alts. If these changes cost too much in productivity, those individuals will look elsewhere to spend their time. Probably outside eve as most industrialists have no inclination to do anything else.
That sounds like a logistics issue. If keeping the boosts continually active is the goal then the obvious suggestion is a secondary hauler and the Orca only acting as in belt storage and boosts. Yes, it takes a miner or 2 depending on the chosen hauler but the size of your operation sounds like the gains may be worth it if the losses from the boost turn out to be greater.

Also, don't think I'm not understanding the issue. There's clearly a point to a limit on the orca's capacity, and if the intended for the Orca itself to operate independently while supporting a sizable fleet for a significant period of time I'd think they would have made it to do just that. But they didn't. They made that exclusively the domain of the Rorq.

But more than that the change to boosts as a whole is designed to be disruptive to the current meta of always having boosts without issue and what you're asking for is a partial pass. Threats to unsub or no, what you're asking for infringes on the next step up and seeks to undo part of the change.

And really if you do make good on your unsubs that may be for the better as groups that are sized for the ships they use or do use additional support will be that much better off doing what they do without the competition.
Blavish
Therapy.
Brave Collective
#197 - 2016-10-11 22:05:35 UTC
Jin Kugu wrote:
Another buff to freighter ehp o_O

I guess you really needed to go back and buff those freighters that could already fit a DC2.

The bowhead does not need more EHP. If they get caught outside highsec a little extra ehp won't help them. In highsec max tank bowheads almost never die. Go look at the killboards if you don't believe me.

The agility buff is weird too because everyone and their dog uses a mwd.

The orca is getting way too many buffs at once. Specific bays (ore, pi, whatever) have been used excessively already and mostly just remove any need to make choices when fitting a ship. This means people will be free to just fit max tank while at the same time getting more base ehp.

I realise the orca is getting more shield to make it survivable outside high sec. I think it's pretty obvious that if you want to keep the orca balanced in high sec it needs to lose way more hull to balance out the shield gain.

~just one more nerf~




Gotta love the gankers complain about mining ships actually getting useful

https://zkillboard.com/character/92133499/
Cade Windstalker
#198 - 2016-10-11 22:40:10 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'll put it in nice easy English. Right now I run a max cargo Orca because it sits in a pos for 90% of its time so is at little risk. Come November, I won't be sitting in lowsec with a max cargo Orca now forced to sit on grid. So all in all I gain 30K from the increased ore hold AND lose my boosts for longer on each trip to the pos.
(unless of course boosting is changing so it can be active while the Booster is in warp)
This gets even worse once pos's are removed and if Devs don't get it right now, by then it will be too late. The Orca won't get another balance pass.


While currently, the only time I am not boosting is while in warp, come November I am losing at least 4 mins out of every 20 or +12 minutes (nearly an Orca load) every hour in productivity.

+30K per load (from 14 to +-19 minutes to fill orca) minus 12 minutes per hour unable to boost - I go from 3.5 orca loads per hour to 2 and a bit.
NB; I used to have a dedicated freighter alt to haul but it is not viable isk wise, there just isn't enough profit to afford another alt that isn't able to produce income.

Bottom line, if i can't find a way to make up the loss of productivity due to being forced to have my orca on grid (for no real gain but a lot more risk) - I just unsub all my miners and other industrial characters, go back to running lvl 5's to make isk for my main and be done with it.

Most industrial efforts are undertaken by small groups or individuals with a few (or lots) of alts. If these changes cost too much in productivity, those individuals will look elsewhere to spend their time. Probably outside eve as most industrialists have no inclination to do anything else.


Couple of points and FYIs.

First off, you should go read the dev blog on how boosts are changing. Short version, they're an AOE pulse that sticks to the ships affected, so you can boost, warp off in your Orca, drop your stuff and warp back. If you're smart about where you put your Citadel you can probably have zero or close to zero downtime on your mining boosts.

I'd also like to point out that CCP have been pretty good about revisiting changes that needed it over the last few years. The longest standing complaints right now are probably Jump Fatigue and T3Ds, and the former is getting a tweak in November I believe.

You're also forgetting that the Orca can mine now, which means it's directly contributing to your ore yields in a way that it wasn't before.
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#199 - 2016-10-12 02:25:17 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks! This will be the specific feedback thread for the Orca revamp coming this November.
You can check out the dev blog here for the whole context.
Other feedback threads are available for the Porpoise, Rorqual, and the mining foreman gameplay as a whole.

ORCA
Industrial Command Ships bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to ship cargo capacity and ore hold
3% bonus to Mining Foreman Burst Strength and Duration
1% bonus to Shield Command Burst Strength and Duration
10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield
-10% reduction in drone ice harvesting cycle time
Role bonus:
100% bonus to drone mining yield
-25% reduction in drone ice harvesting cycle time
100% bonus to drone damage
400% bonus to Remote Shield Booster optimal range
90% reduction to effective distance traveled for jump fatigue
Can fit three Command Burst modules
50% bonus to Command Burst Area of Effect Range
250% bonus to Tractor Beam range
100% bonus to Tractor Beam velocity
500% bonus to Survey Scanner range

Slot layout: 6H (+3), 5M (+1), 2L
Fittings: 1200 PWG (+240), 550 CPU (+120)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 30,000 (+19,250) / 7000 (+100) / 45,000 (-1000)
Base shield resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 0 / 20 / 40 / 50
Base armor resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 50 / 35 / 35 / 10
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 8000 (+3800) / 1200s (+400) / 6.67 (+1.42)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 60 / 0.26 (+0.1) / 150,000,000 (-100,000,000) / 54.07s (-1.38)
Warp Speed: 2 au/s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 200 (+125)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km (+10) / 75 / 7 (+5)
Sensor strength: 30 Magnetometric (+15)
Signature radius: 1000
Cargo Hold: 30,000m3
Ore Hold: 150,000m3 (+100,000)
Fleet Hangar: 40,000m3
Ship Maintenance Bay: 400,000m3

Cost: ~700m isk
Max Yield: ~1400m3 per minute + drone travel time
Max DPS: ~800 dps

Let us know what you think!


Please let me fit a grappler.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#200 - 2016-10-12 09:49:32 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I'll put it in nice easy English. Right now I run a max cargo Orca because it sits in a pos for 90% of its time so is at little risk. Come November, I won't be sitting in lowsec with a max cargo Orca now forced to sit on grid. So all in all I gain 30K from the increased ore hold AND lose my boosts for longer on each trip to the pos.
(unless of course boosting is changing so it can be active while the Booster is in warp)
This gets even worse once pos's are removed and if Devs don't get it right now, by then it will be too late. The Orca won't get another balance pass.


While currently, the only time I am not boosting is while in warp, come November I am losing at least 4 mins out of every 20 or +12 minutes (nearly an Orca load) every hour in productivity.

+30K per load (from 14 to +-19 minutes to fill orca) minus 12 minutes per hour unable to boost - I go from 3.5 orca loads per hour to 2 and a bit.
NB; I used to have a dedicated freighter alt to haul but it is not viable isk wise, there just isn't enough profit to afford another alt that isn't able to produce income.

Bottom line, if i can't find a way to make up the loss of productivity due to being forced to have my orca on grid (for no real gain but a lot more risk) - I just unsub all my miners and other industrial characters, go back to running lvl 5's to make isk for my main and be done with it.

Most industrial efforts are undertaken by small groups or individuals with a few (or lots) of alts. If these changes cost too much in productivity, those individuals will look elsewhere to spend their time. Probably outside eve as most industrialists have no inclination to do anything else.


Couple of points and FYIs.

First off, you should go read the dev blog on how boosts are changing. Short version, they're an AOE pulse that sticks to the ships affected, so you can boost, warp off in your Orca, drop your stuff and warp back. If you're smart about where you put your Citadel you can probably have zero or close to zero downtime on your mining boosts.

I'd also like to point out that CCP have been pretty good about revisiting changes that needed it over the last few years. The longest standing complaints right now are probably Jump Fatigue and T3Ds, and the former is getting a tweak in November I believe.

You're also forgetting that the Orca can mine now, which means it's directly contributing to your ore yields in a way that it wasn't before.

Boosts stop as soon as you dock, jump through a stargate or enter a starbase forcefield. Presuming the blog is written correctly once an Orca enters a pos or docks in a citadel to unload, the boost cycle it started will cease activity. If I'm wrong here, I'm wrong but I have read that part of the blog several times and believe my understanding to be correct.
Otherwise, with a max skilled Orca pilot you can still virtually run offgrid boosts, only having to warp to your miners every 5 minutes or so, collect cans and return to safety. Any ship in warp is invulnerable, so I'm pretty sure Devs don't intend Orca's to start boosts and leave grid for the duration.

Fatigue and T3d's are indeed the longest standing unaddressed complaints - Neither of which is being changed in November. Capital ships are getting an extra 1LY jump range AND the added fatigue to match. A zero outcome change, except there will now be more choke points for hunters to watch.
The change is actually 2LY for dreads and carriers, 1 LY for supers and titans. As subcaps can only jump as far as a titan - The net increase for all capitals is, 1LY. Another change that shows how little understanding Devs have of how the game they develop is played.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.