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[November] Rorqual Astrahus citadel docking fix

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Queloor Zefram
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#141 - 2016-09-25 04:52:08 UTC
Cost of building a rorqual in a wormhole:
Let us assume in the order of magnitude of 2 bil

Cost for a large pos setup in a wormhole:
Let us assume in the order of magnitude of 1 bil

Cost of a fortizar:
Let us assume in the order of magnitude of 12 bil

So one could have built a rorqual in a wormhole even as a smaller wormhole group without problems and operate it there with ease.

Once pos towers are gone and once a rorqual cannot dock in an Astrahus anymore all those groups will be buggered by CCP's change of game mechanics because of the fairly different amounts of costs comparing a fortizar with a large pos.
First-of-Four
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2016-09-26 22:22:31 UTC
CCP,

November's Rorqual changes are likely to be the biggest game change for industrial players in years. With October days away, perhaps you should follow up on August's dev blog with additional details on how the Rorqual will work. As we've seen here, you're not quite aligned with your industrial player base; more time to consume our feedback will make life easier for everyone.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2016-09-27 16:34:16 UTC
Time to dock Rorquals and hoard them inside Astrahus?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Keyran Tyler
Bionesis Technologies
#144 - 2016-09-29 15:32:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The intended design is that Rorquals should have the same docking access as normal sized capital ships like the carrier, dread and force aux classes.


#SaveTheWhales
Rorqual owner speaking.

I don't understand why you are putting the Rorqual in the same category than combat capital.
What is "normal sized" for you ? Mass ? Volume ? Long Axis ? Capital Jump Drive ? Going to high sec ability ?

- If you use the mass (kg), Rorqual is clearly the bigger of the non combat ships. But who care of mass in a space station with antigravity in ship hangar ?

- If you use the volume (m³), all the freighters are bigger.

- If you use long axis (M), Bowhead is longuer.

- If you use Capital Jump Drive inside of the ship, all JF and Blops have few of them.

- If you use the Going to high sec ability, it is incoherent because Astrahus could be anchored in LS and 0.0.

So, you should leave the Rorqual dock in Astrahus ... and authorize it to go in High Sec. It is the only way to make it really attractive.
This interdiction dating from the creation of the ship was logicl when capital could not use stargates. This is no longer the case. Empires prohibiting access to combat capital is logic, but it is not for Rorqual because it is an industrial ship.

Your change planned for November have not convinced me to get out more often than twice a year with that ship.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#145 - 2016-10-05 20:33:40 UTC
Queloor Zefram wrote:
Cost of building a rorqual in a wormhole:
Let us assume in the order of magnitude of 2 bil

Cost for a large pos setup in a wormhole:
Let us assume in the order of magnitude of 1 bil

Cost of a fortizar:
Let us assume in the order of magnitude of 12 bil

So one could have built a rorqual in a wormhole even as a smaller wormhole group without problems and operate it there with ease.

Once pos towers are gone and once a rorqual cannot dock in an Astrahus anymore all those groups will be buggered by CCP's change of game mechanics because of the fairly different amounts of costs comparing a fortizar with a large pos.





Or just use one of the other 5 new structures that are going to be added to the game and will be significantly cheaper than a Fortizar.

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ShadowFirestar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#146 - 2016-10-11 08:46:36 UTC
Why did you delay till November when the November patch does nothing to change or help this problem?
ShadowFirestar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2016-10-11 08:50:33 UTC  |  Edited by: ShadowFirestar
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks. We've got a bug fix in the pipeline that I think is especially important to draw your attention to ahead of time.

At the moment Rorquals can dock in Astrahus medium citadels, which is a bug. They actually even use the frigate undock port.

The intended design is that Rorquals should have the same docking access as normal sized capital ships like the carrier, dread and force aux classes. We're fixing this bug at some point in the future which means that Rorquals will no longer be able to dock in Astrahus citadels.

Even though this is a fairly simple bug fix, I wanted to create a sticky thread just to make sure that there was some visibility for it ahead of the normal patch notes. I'd like to avoid people getting surprised by this fix as much as possible.

We're working on the dev blog for the big Rorqual changes coming in November, and that will be ready for everyone soon.
Thanks!

:Edit: Updated the post to indicate that we're delaying this particular fix until after the October release.
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks. We hear your concerns, and a good point has been raised by some that it's especially awkward to fix this bug a month before the actual Rorqual changes hit.

Although we can't leave this bug in place long-term (it's not within my power to leave the docking access as it is long-term since Astrahus citadels don't have the correct docking port for a Rorqual-sized ship), after some discussion internally we can delay the bug fix until at least November so that it doesn't hit before the Rorqual revamp. There are a number of changes in the pipeline that should help address some of the concerns here, although they're not at a stage where I'm able to provide exact release dates.

One change we are working towards is the ability to place items into your personal hangar in an Upwell structure from outside of that structure (within docking range). I'm not going to lie and tell you that we know exactly when that feature will be done, but it is on our roadmap.

In the meantime TL:DR is that we're delaying this fix for now, at least until November.



There are a number of changes in the pipeline that should help address some of the concerns here, although they're not at a stage where I'm able to provide exact release dates.

Where are these changes? Nothing in either of the indy blogs reflect this.

One thing that be nice at least for me. If some auto dump feature that you can toggle on and off that when your in range of a citadel it auto dumps the ore in your hold into the citadel.
Aurra Jol
4S Corporation
The Initiative.
#148 - 2016-10-11 16:46:51 UTC
So, capitals (Carriers, Force Auxillaries, Dreads, Rorqual) can dock in the Large citadel (Fortizar), but for the new Engineering Complexes are restricted and can only dock in the X-Large variant.

Is there a reason they can dock in a large for standard citadels, but cannot in the engineering complexes?
Princess Adhara
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2016-10-11 18:28:35 UTC
Aurra Jol wrote:
Is there a reason they can dock in a large for standard citadels, but cannot in the engineering complexes?


From the dev blog:

Quote:
These tighter docking restrictions are what allowed us to keep the price of Large and XL Engineering Complexes so much lower than their Citadel counterparts without causing major balance issues
Aurra Jol
4S Corporation
The Initiative.
#150 - 2016-10-11 18:58:29 UTC
Princess Adhara wrote:
Aurra Jol wrote:
Is there a reason they can dock in a large for standard citadels, but cannot in the engineering complexes?


From the dev blog:

Quote:
These tighter docking restrictions are what allowed us to keep the price of Large and XL Engineering Complexes so much lower than their Citadel counterparts without causing major balance issues



Fair enough, but all three sizes, including the medium are significantly lower than their citadel counterparts. It is reasonable to restrict carriers, dreads, and FAX's. However the rorqual is an industrial ship and can have a need to dock at a large.
Heinrich Lenz
0nlyhoes
#151 - 2016-10-11 20:45:58 UTC
Aurra Jol wrote:
Princess Adhara wrote:
Aurra Jol wrote:
Is there a reason they can dock in a large for standard citadels, but cannot in the engineering complexes?


From the dev blog:

Quote:
These tighter docking restrictions are what allowed us to keep the price of Large and XL Engineering Complexes so much lower than their Citadel counterparts without causing major balance issues



Fair enough, but all three sizes, including the medium are significantly lower than their citadel counterparts. It is reasonable to restrict carriers, dreads, and FAX's. However the rorqual is an industrial ship and can have a need to dock at a large.



I think that this will be going to be a big problem when the POS structures meet their end. Cuz now you can hide your Rorqual capital industrial ship in any POS but you can't dock in MEDIUm and LARGE Engineering stations. The result is that we need to buy Fortizar to dock our Rorquals or X-large Eng station(50bil). I am missing the point really.By the way the problem is the same with the Orca industrial ship! Please CCP think on this more seriously, the main industrial capital ships have to allowed to dock at least on the Large Engineering station.
Aurra Jol
4S Corporation
The Initiative.
#152 - 2016-10-11 20:50:15 UTC
Heinrich Lenz wrote:
Aurra Jol wrote:
Princess Adhara wrote:
Aurra Jol wrote:
Is there a reason they can dock in a large for standard citadels, but cannot in the engineering complexes?


From the dev blog:

Quote:
These tighter docking restrictions are what allowed us to keep the price of Large and XL Engineering Complexes so much lower than their Citadel counterparts without causing major balance issues



Fair enough, but all three sizes, including the medium are significantly lower than their citadel counterparts. It is reasonable to restrict carriers, dreads, and FAX's. However the rorqual is an industrial ship and can have a need to dock at a large.



I think that this will be going to be a big problem when the POS structures meet their end. Cuz now you can hide your Rorqual capital industrial ship in any POS but you can't dock in MEDIUm and LARGE Engineering stations. The result is that we need to buy Fortizar to dock our Rorquals or X-large Eng station(50bil). I am missing the point really.By the way the problem is the same with the Orca industrial ship! Please CCP think on this more seriously, the main industrial capital ships have to allowed to dock at least on the Large Engineering station.


Exactly!

At this point, not critical as POS still exist in the game and you can store the ship in an POS module. Once POS are removed, you are forced into having an XL EC or M/L Citadel.
Jalxan
EVE University
Ivy League
#153 - 2016-10-12 16:14:25 UTC
This is something I discovered through this feedback thread, which regards the Rorqual and docking in Astrahus stations. I will be posting this in both this and the Rorqual revamp threads, as both are mutually exclusive, and should be read.

I strongly recommend, that the Rorqual be allowed to dock in the Astrahus. In addition, Rorquals, as they are not combat vessels, should be permitted to mine in High Sec space. Because the Rorqual is going through a rework, it is a perfect time to size the Rorqual to the approximate dimension of a Freighter, and since Freighters count as capital ships, and since they can dock in the Astrahus station, the Rorqual should as well. This is especially important, as Astrahus stations are known to be mining/refining stations, and it would severely hamper the Rorqual if it can't dock in a station that is designed to cater to it!

Thus, I'd like to see the Rorqual to be Freighter-sized, and capable of docking in the Astrahus, and undocking via its largest docking ports. Beyond that, I believe the new Rorqual is perfect.
Trevize Demerzel
#154 - 2016-11-04 14:29:08 UTC
Here's a thought...

As a "fix" for this "bug"... Convert every Astrohaus into a Fortizar that has a Rorqual docked in it. Free of charge.

-
Leena Turos
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#155 - 2016-11-10 19:57:18 UTC
Just a thought. Should there not be consistency across all the structures whatever ship can dock at a small, docks at small industrial complex, same with medium, L and XL. Makes things really easy to understand for the alphas that will be coming and getting into alliances that then want to sub and move into bigger ships. And for the smaller corps that are in low or null sec they may not be able to safely house the Rorqual that already has a home at the Astrahus. If the only problem of the Astrahus is the fact that rorquals are undocking at the frigate undock. Why dont you make it so it undocks at the same undock as a freighter. Makes sense to me.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#156 - 2016-11-11 04:28:40 UTC
can someone please tell me, what was the final decision on this thread? i mean he seemingly is avoiding putting out a detailed dev blog of these changes and more recent changes he posted on 11/8...so what is the final verdict of this thread

Can the Rorqual dock at a freaking medium or not?

its simple, its quick and can be answered with no further debate.

ccp you expect new folks to sign up for this game, yet you continue to keep some distorted logic that its "fun" searching for facts about what you can do and can not do in a sandbox game..please catch up with reality and resolve this matter.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#157 - 2016-11-11 20:01:18 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
can someone please tell me, what was the final decision on this thread? i mean he seemingly is avoiding putting out a detailed dev blog of these changes and more recent changes he posted on 11/8...so what is the final verdict of this thread

Can the Rorqual dock at a freaking medium or not?

its simple, its quick and can be answered with no further debate.

ccp you expect new folks to sign up for this game, yet you continue to keep some distorted logic that its "fun" searching for facts about what you can do and can not do in a sandbox game..please catch up with reality and resolve this matter.


Yes today, no on Tuesday.

It will be ok once we have the ability to drop cargo into a structure.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#158 - 2016-11-11 22:46:09 UTC
the whole reason for this change is to stop people droping an astraus in every belt and just farming the belts from the safety of dock range
Rholen Blunts
Neutin Local LLC
#159 - 2017-01-26 17:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rholen Blunts
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks. We've got a bug fix in the pipeline that I think is especially important to draw your attention to ahead of time.


This discussion spurred some comments about rigs on existing citadels that would be removed at the release of ECs, did that ever go anywhere?, there's mention of it further up in this thread, and I recall seeing or hearing about it somewhere else.
Can you clarify whether this is or isn't going to be done?, Thanks in advance Fozzie

R.B.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#160 - 2017-01-27 05:09:11 UTC
Queloor Zefram wrote:
Cost of building a rorqual in a wormhole:
Let us assume in the order of magnitude of 2 bil

Cost for a large pos setup in a wormhole:
Let us assume in the order of magnitude of 1 bil

Cost of a fortizar:
Let us assume in the order of magnitude of 12 bil

So one could have built a rorqual in a wormhole even as a smaller wormhole group without problems and operate it there with ease.

Once pos towers are gone and once a rorqual cannot dock in an Astrahus anymore all those groups will be buggered by CCP's change of game mechanics because of the fairly different amounts of costs comparing a fortizar with a large pos.






if you are not making 12b in a wh as a corp you are WHing wrong even when living in a C1 we could make 12b in under a month with as little as 6 pilots

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble