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[November] Rorqual Astrahus citadel docking fix

First post First post First post
Author
Wednesday Askira
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2016-09-21 10:32:51 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks. We hear your concerns, and a good point has been raised by some that it's especially awkward to fix this bug a month before the actual Rorqual changes hit.

Although we can't leave this bug in place long-term (it's not within my power to leave the docking access as it is long-term since Astrahus citadels don't have the correct docking port for a Rorqual-sized ship), after some discussion internally we can delay the bug fix until at least November so that it doesn't hit before the Rorqual revamp. There are a number of changes in the pipeline that should help address some of the concerns here, although they're not at a stage where I'm able to provide exact release dates.

One change we are working towards is the ability to place items into your personal hangar in an Upwell structure from outside of that structure (within docking range). I'm not going to lie and tell you that we know exactly when that feature will be done, but it is on our roadmap.

In the meantime TL:DR is that we're delaying this fix for now, at least until November.


Rorquals undock from the incorrect port from the Fortizars also, don't forget to disallow docking from those as well.
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2016-09-21 10:57:16 UTC
Queloor Zefram wrote:
Denying a rorqual docking access to a Astrahus is the death of these ships in wh space.

Not every wormhole corp has a Fortizar. As a large pos was easy to set up and a rorqual easy to build even for a smaller group in C4 and lower class wh systems I guess there are a few rorquals in lower class wh space.

A fortizar citadel is neither easy to build nor easy to defend.

So in effect you do **** on every small wh space corp - not that CCP cares much about people living in wh space anyway.

So really please, you should seriously reconsider your decision, at least for wh space.







Has anyone considered that maybe (just maybe), CCP doesn't intend Rorquals to be that easily accessible? You want to fly capital ships in your wormhole but at the same time demand that you don't have to put up a Fortizar to be able to dock. If we were talking about any other capital we'd be laughing in your face. The Rorq is the odd one out and it shouldn't get special treatment.

The poor man's jump freighter argument is one of the reasons they shouldn't be allowed in Astrahuses because the ship isn't intended for that purpose at all. Just because you could doesn't mean you should, so CCP is correcting their mistake and that's all there is to it. You want to dock a capital, then dish out the cash to dock it in a structure that can actually support capitals.

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Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#123 - 2016-09-21 11:34:29 UTC
additionally (if i may be so bold as to mention it) a titan can go through a stargate now and that's considered a normal part of the game, yet, as shown in this meme (linked below), there's a huge disparity between the size of the gate and what can pass through it.

Titan - Stargate - meme

warning, the meme contains a four letter word that might be deemed inappropriate by some.... It also accurately describes the issue/feature/ect.


Maybe there could be a way factored in to allow the rorq to be used in a medium citadel, a rig that adds an industrial docking port which only lets industrial ships dock and undock in that port, or a mod, or maybe a tweak to the austrahus itself that gives it the one industrial port... kind of like a big company's loading dock around back?

just a thought.

o/
Celly


Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2016-09-21 11:54:34 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One change we are working towards is the ability to place items into your personal hangar in an Upwell structure from outside of that structure (within docking range). I'm not going to lie and tell you that we know exactly when that feature will be done, but it is on our roadmap.

What a disgusting band-aid.

Please dont. This breaks consistency. Hangar access is a service available only when docked. Shall I be able to use other services from the outside? Like fitting? Cloning? Insurance? Do not open this box of Pandora.

I think the real question people ask is: are Rorquals allowed to dock into new industrial structures?
If yes then what about other capships?
If no then what is the role of Rorquals anyways?
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#125 - 2016-09-21 12:13:05 UTC
Queloor Zefram wrote:
Denying a rorqual docking access to a Astrahus is the death of these ships in wh space.

Not every wormhole corp has a Fortizar. As a large pos was easy to set up and a rorqual easy to build even for a smaller group in C4 and lower class wh systems I guess there are a few rorquals in lower class wh space.

So you want a full utility of a large POS, but without fuel costs of a large POS - right?
First of all, POSes are not going away anytime soon.
Second, if you're a small corp - use small assets. Orca is a thing.

Next, the most important. Citadels are not supposed to be swiss army knifes. Rorqual is an industrial ship, and new industrial structures are yet to be released. Will they match together is a big question, and that is a question you should be asking. Not begging to #SaveTheBug.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#126 - 2016-09-21 12:36:45 UTC
Fozzie needs to be let go from ccp he's doing nothing but causing more people to get fed up and leave the game. this is the truth and the most honest truth there is.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#127 - 2016-09-21 12:51:48 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Philip Shazih wrote:
The supposed to be end all be all mining ship (that will become a lot less usefull soon) cant dock in the station thats supposed to excel in refining... makes sense to you?



Citadel aren't supposed to excel in refining, that is a stop gap measure until drilling platforms come about

Once drilling platforms are introduced, citadel will lose their reprocessing bonus and rigs will be removed and returned to the owner to place in a drilling platform.

If you aren't quite sure, re read the dev blog for the structures and look at the part where it talks rigs - it specifically didn't put those rigs in with citadel rigs, cause the aren't it is a band aid until the drilling platforms arrive

Problem there is, CCP is "fixing" a so called bug, without offering an alternative.
There is still no word on when drilling platforms will be released, no word on "if" Rorquals will be allowed docking rights in them.

Seems the team responsible for this coming change has put the cart (remove docking rights) before the horse (releasing an alternative for refining).

I have to agree with the others saying - This change should be put on hold, at least until there is an alternative.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2016-09-21 13:47:53 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Fozzie needs to be let go from ccp he's doing nothing but causing more people to get fed up and leave the game. this is the truth and the most honest truth there is.


How about you stop demanding a person is fired from their real life job because an entire team of people are changing something in a virtual game that you don't like. This kind of talk is beyond disgusting, not to mention completely ret*rded since Fozzie is for the most part just the messenger as head of a much larger team.

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CrankyApe
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
#129 - 2016-09-21 14:19:02 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks. We've got a bug fix in the pipeline that I think is especially important to draw your attention to ahead of time.

At the moment Rorquals can dock in Astrahus medium citadels, which is a bug. They actually even use the frigate undock port.

The intended design is that Rorquals should have the same docking access as normal sized capital ships like the carrier, dread and force aux classes. We're fixing this bug at some point in the future which means that Rorquals will no longer be able to dock in Astrahus citadels.

Even though this is a fairly simple bug fix, I wanted to create a sticky thread just to make sure that there was some visibility for it ahead of the normal patch notes. I'd like to avoid people getting surprised by this fix as much as possible.

We're working on the dev blog for the big Rorqual changes coming in November, and that will be ready for everyone soon.
Thanks!

:Edit: Updated the post to indicate that we're delaying this particular fix until after the October release.
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks. We hear your concerns, and a good point has been raised by some that it's especially awkward to fix this bug a month before the actual Rorqual changes hit.

Although we can't leave this bug in place long-term (it's not within my power to leave the docking access as it is long-term since Astrahus citadels don't have the correct docking port for a Rorqual-sized ship), after some discussion internally we can delay the bug fix until at least November so that it doesn't hit before the Rorqual revamp. There are a number of changes in the pipeline that should help address some of the concerns here, although they're not at a stage where I'm able to provide exact release dates.





This doesn't fly Fozzie.

1) They can dock now so it has nothing to do with the docking port size from a coding perspective.

2) Freighters can still dock and they are also capital ships (requires the capital ship building skill to build them). Do freighters and jump freighters use the same magic wand that gets used to whoosh all the stuff away to asset safety when a citadel is destroyed in order to magically squeeze their asses out through a frigate sized docking port? Oh wait we are already cleared the port size being BS up in the previous item.

I don't mind changes and I understand that the Astrahaus wasn't meant to dock capitals but don't give us a BS reason behind it. Simply say We never meant for Rorqual's to dock in Astrhaus citadels and leave it at that man.....

Personally I don't like THIS change as it makes dropping off ore from the rorqual when it becomes a mining ship in November a pain in the ass but I will find a way to work around it.

-C
CrankyApe
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
#130 - 2016-09-21 14:20:56 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Fozzie needs to be let go from ccp he's doing nothing but causing more people to get fed up and leave the game. this is the truth and the most honest truth there is.



Your an idiot. STFU. You should be let go from your real life job for demanding someone else be let go from their real life job over a freaking change in a video game. Get back in your box.

-C
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#131 - 2016-09-21 18:25:28 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Fozzie needs to be let go from ccp he's doing nothing but causing more people to get fed up and leave the game. this is the truth and the most honest truth there is.


How about you stop demanding a person is fired from their real life job because an entire team of people are changing something in a virtual game that you don't like. This kind of talk is beyond disgusting, not to mention completely ret*rded since Fozzie is for the most part just the messenger as head of a much larger team.



i dont care what you say.. im sick and tired of a so-called person calling themselves a dev while they meta-game with their friends and provide them advantages just cause they all come from the same circle-jerk of geeks.. he sucks at his job and all his changes has caused an increased decline of people playing the game instead of increase.. thats a fact so be mad all you want to he wouldn't get a job at any reputable studio in the industry.
Cade Windstalker
#132 - 2016-09-21 18:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Nymblar wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Nymblar wrote:
So is my understanding correct that you can't allow the rorqual because the ART of a astrahus doesn't have a capital docking port? Yet you're still allowing Jump Freighters, a much larger ship to dock?

:psyduck:


This is incorrect, the largest Freighter is the Providence at 2,484 meters long-axis, second place is the Charon at 2,461m long axis. The Rorqual is 2,862m long-axis, and larger than either Freighter in every other dimension as well, being about twice as wide as a Charon and 2-3 times as thick.

Also the Rorqual is a true Capital with all of the restrictions there-in while Freighters are not.

The Astrahus specifically says that Capitals can't dock at it.


And JFs aren't true capitals because?


They've always been able to take gates, they can enter High Sec freely, and they don't require the Capital Ships skill to fly. They also can't fit Capital Modules, while the Rorqual can.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#133 - 2016-09-21 18:40:12 UTC
Allow the Rorqual into high-sec.. that will be its only saving grace fuzzie. it makes no sense you allow fortizers into high sec are caps able to go to high sec? so why allow it? this change is just a blantant bad decision. and your explanation just doesn't stick. you'd think a dev-team would have saw this issue long before releasing citadels.. but once again you decide to roll out a patch with so called "bugs" and knew about it, was quiet about it, and waited to fix it.


this is poor quality service being provided to paying customers mind you.. and you honestly think new players are going to enjoy this kind of treatment.

bad call dude..
very very bad call.


someone needs to step in and honestly lead that team cause you basically allowed a bug during a patch release.. which Andy promised wasn't ever going to happen again... yeah i said it.. so what!
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#134 - 2016-09-21 21:02:40 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Problem there is, CCP is "fixing" a so called bug, without offering an alternative.
There is still no word on when drilling platforms will be released, no word on "if" Rorquals will be allowed docking rights in them.

Seems the team responsible for this coming change has put the cart (remove docking rights) before the horse (releasing an alternative for refining).

I have to agree with the others saying - This change should be put on hold, at least until there is an alternative.

Uh yes there is, Drilling platforms are slatted for the November release.
Which is exactly why they pushed the Rorqual changes to November to come out with them.
Though I would expect it still can't dock at a M Platform, since M Platforms are likely to all be subcap only (including Freighters since they get counted as subcaps for game mechanics)
But frankly if you can afford to be using Rorquals you should be able to afford a L. Otherwise use an orca and accept that your budget costs you a couple of percent.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#135 - 2016-09-21 22:39:24 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Problem there is, CCP is "fixing" a so called bug, without offering an alternative.
There is still no word on when drilling platforms will be released, no word on "if" Rorquals will be allowed docking rights in them.

Seems the team responsible for this coming change has put the cart (remove docking rights) before the horse (releasing an alternative for refining).

I have to agree with the others saying - This change should be put on hold, at least until there is an alternative.

Uh yes there is, Drilling platforms are slatted for the November release.
Which is exactly why they pushed the Rorqual changes to November to come out with them.
Though I would expect it still can't dock at a M Platform, since M Platforms are likely to all be subcap only (including Freighters since they get counted as subcaps for game mechanics)
But frankly if you can afford to be using Rorquals you should be able to afford a L. Otherwise use an orca and accept that your budget costs you a couple of percent.


you are getting your terms mixed up

Engineering Complexes are scheduled for November
Drilling Platforms is scheduled or Winter which equates to end of year or early next year. that structure deals with the moon mining and has nothing to do with a freaking rorqual what so ever..
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#136 - 2016-09-21 22:50:09 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

But frankly if you can afford to be using Rorquals you should be able to afford a L. Otherwise use an orca and accept that your budget costs you a couple of percent.


I do apologize my friend, but your statement is flawed badly.

med citadel 1.4b

rorqual 1.2 to 2.0-ish billion

That's nothing compared to the fortizar's cost.

Fortizar 14.489 B median cost

o/
Celly S.

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Vailen Sere
420 Enterprises.
Tactical Supremacy
#137 - 2016-09-22 00:30:19 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Freighter and JF docking access remains unchanged, they have always been intended to be dockable in Astrahus citadels.


How does this tie into the future industrial focused structures which have not been released yet? Should freighters and JHF's not be allowed to dock in those as well as dreads fax's , etc? which would make it totally geared towards use with mining marges, exhumuers and industrial command ships / capitol command ships.
Vailen Sere
420 Enterprises.
Tactical Supremacy
#138 - 2016-09-22 00:35:36 UTC
Querns wrote:
Considering the rorqual's primary ability to haul ore, not to mention its (assumed) direct mining role coming with the rebalance, denying the rorqual the ability to dock in an Astrahus is, frankly, absurd.

Nope.. you saw the post.. ccp says its primary ability is the same as fax's and dread's.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Reckless Contingency.
#139 - 2016-09-22 16:40:31 UTC
Any patch notes for the rorqual??
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#140 - 2016-09-22 22:39:44 UTC
Siede Dunham wrote:
Orca, Freighters and Jump freighters aren't true Capitals to begin with see the restriction of using highsec-gates. They were always an exception to Capital rules.



I wholeheartedly disagree with that, if it takes capital parts and construction skills to build to build, namely:
Time per run 17D 08:40:00
1 x Orca
Capital Ship Construction Level I
Mechanics Level V
Advanced Industry Level V
Industry Level III
Industry Level V
4 x Capital Sensor Cluster
9 x Capital Capacitor Battery
38 x Capital Cargo Bay
7 x Capital Computer System
16 x Capital Construction Parts
7 x Capital Ship Maintenance Bay
4 x Capital Corporate Hangar Bay

Then it is in fact a capital ship, whether it has a JD or not, and whether it can go into high sec or not, is irrelevant, same goes for the F and JF.

just saying... :)

Siede Dunham wrote:

Now let us look at the Rorqual... Yes that's right, not the same rules apply here.


How so?
is it not a capital ship as well?, maybe it can't go into high sec, but then again it still takes the same type stuff and same type skills to build.
You might notice the emphasis on the phrase "can't go into" because that is the key, there are in fact at least 1, if not more capital vessels that cannot "go into" high sec from low or null that are already in high sec currently, should they leave high sec, they would not be able to return, because the restriction is not the "use" of high sec gates, it's the destination of the ship using the gate, "those" capitals cannot travel through the gate "if their destination is another high sec system", but they are able to use the gate in the same way that any other ship in the game can aside from that.

but that's for a different discussions...

Siede Dunham wrote:

It would have been complete logical if it was like that from the beginning. I get that ppl who threw down Astrahus now are annoyed but we are talking about Null-sec alliances. You can't tell me you aren't able to place a Fortizar in the next 2 months when you plan to use a Rorqual after the Booster changes...


In this part, I agree somewhat, however there are places where some folks live in null that are in fact unable to put down a fortizar because the sov holders won't allow it, so while there is some validity in your statement, it's not a blanket "be all, end all" answer to the problem that those folks might face


o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.