These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New Dev Blog: CSM December summit – meeting minutes are out

First post First post First post
Author
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#201 - 2012-01-18 04:14:22 UTC
I actually liked what was mentioned on page 10 regarding the bot problem.

Quote:

The CSM was surprised that CCP Sreegs was not planning another “unholy rage” (a highly-public mass-banning
of botters during a specific time period). Instead, Sreegs explained that “unholy rage” events, while effective,
are not his preferred standalone solution to botting activities; instead, he would like to create an iterative
process to deal with EULA-breaking activities. The focus should be on long term solutions and a sustainable
process to reduce the footprint of botters; large events such as “unholy rage” are resource intensive and don’t
scale well.

While CCP Sreegs was adamant that banning is in fact very successful, and will always be a major tool for
dealing with botting, he would rather work on infrastructure and processes to limit the way that unauthorized
programs can interact with the EVE client.


For this, I would suggest that they start the iterative processes by fixing the wording of the EULA as plenty of the botters point to the EULA as their excuse for using bots (among other non-EULA related excuses). Even though it is fun seeing a mass banning occur like 'Unholy Rage', folks like me see this as only a temporary measure as botters/RMTers will always crawl right back like a cockroach. Therefore, I like the idea of implementing minor processes that can make life harder for the bots but not an inconvenience to the honest players.

Quote:

The CSM suggested using behavioral analysis (similar to spam-detection) to identify botters. While CCP Sreegs
did not dismiss its potential effectiveness, he strongly asserted his preference for a technical approach – at the
very least relying on technical solutions more than behavioral ones. He argued this would prevent customer
support from being inundated with false-positives and fringe cases brought about by the behavioral-flagging. It
must be noted that there isn’t a dichotomy between technical solutions and behavioral analysis, both methods
allow you to be more effective than relying solely on either one. And when it comes to a decision of banning an
account, Sreegs prefers a technical solution over behavioral analysis.


The false positives will no doubt always be an issue given how players can potentially abuse the 'report bot' option while honest players with no lives tend to behave as bots when they play. Even I tend to sit on my chair glaring at the monitor for hours on end while mining. Hey, I enjoy it, alright?

Adapt or Die

Nykala
L.L.A.M.A.
#202 - 2012-01-18 04:20:28 UTC
@ destroyable outposts. Just imagine the killmails Shocked Like massive structures getting nuked irl, the framework and foundation still lingers on. Having them as conquerable or even ransomable at that point is fine as is IMO, but in bringing them to borderline rubble, I'd rather see them rendered useless and abandoned then completely destroyed. Null is too empty as is with blank systems that have no lingering storys of conflict to tell. Maybe have them undockable until a docking bay is reassembled? Or in general unuseable aside from archaeology/salvaging modules to nitpick and things left behind instead of a full on asset relocation. Until someone pumps the resources into bringing one back to life. That would be one heck of a welcome back package if the old owners rebuilt it and some juicy lewtz if the invading force gets to rebuild it before the previous owners do.

Now about the command link part on page 22 of the summit. Two leadership bonuses off the bat spun me into the idea of just making use of the already present pirate dual faction perks. NPC pirate ships are still small in variety, so why not make a hybrid battlecruiser off of other hulls or even new tier 3 spin offs (since they rock the highslot count already) to work with dual leadership bonuses? Just give 'em the usual pirate factions paintjobs and a spinny dealybobber or screen door hanging off of the minnie one, I dunno. The idea is definitely flawed, but still fun to think of so I figured I'd share. One thing being sanshas have too unique of a design and no tier 3 to work from, plus amarr/caldari command link boost types seem like it would risk overtanking things...might be good for anti-freighter gank support though.

Just doing a quick overlook on what range this is implying for dual boost types and so folks don't have to go through all the command ship types...
Bloods - Amarr (Armored WF) Minmatar (Skirmish WF), + armor res, reduced armor cap and cycle time, reduced SigRad, Moar AB/MWD speed, + prop jam range.

Angels - Amarr (Armored WF) Gallente (Information WF), + armor res, reduced armor cap and cycle time, + EWAR strenght and range, + Sensor strenght.

Sanshas -Amarr (AWF..again) Caldari (Siege WF), see above and above again for amarr, Shield boost speed and cap reduction + res.

Guristas - Caldari (Siege) Gallente (InfoWF) Shield boost speed and cap reduction + res, + EWAR strenght and range, + Sensor strenght.

Serps - Gal (InfoWF) Minm (Skirmish WF) + EWAR strenght and range, + Sensor strenght,
reduced SigRad, Moar AB/MWD speed, + prop jam range.
Miss President
SOLARIS ASTERIUS
#203 - 2012-01-18 04:28:50 UTC
If tengu command bonuses get nerfed, at least keep it so that bonus to other T3 ships remains the same.
Sylthi
Coreward Pan-Galactic
#204 - 2012-01-18 04:30:52 UTC
So....... It has been confirmed there will be no NEW content for 2012, only rehashed old stuff that they SHOULD have gotten right the first time. Check.

Hillmar has now made it his OFFICIAL job to do NOTHING constructive or anything even close to resembling actual WORK on the project that pays his (certainly) ludicrous salary. Double check. (Why doesn't he just go ahead and resign? OH, right, sorry, forgot, he lovvulles the FREE MONEY!!! Triple check.)

After all the pain, trouble, taking away from the REAL Eve, millions of dollars, and massive hurt feelings on all sides, Incarna has been abandoned. (That is what "backburner" MEANS in developer speak people.) Wow. Way to shoot yourself in the foot on that one CCP. People give you HELL about what kind of product you AREN'T providing them, and your response is to say: "Fine. You don't get ANYTHING then if you won't be HONORED to provide us with fellatio when demanded." Again, wow. Nice. Way to be real adult about this.

I honestly didn't think CCP could screw up MORE than it already has. But, once again, they did.

I mean, WTF guys. You're an MMO, and you just PROUDLY announced: "No new content for at LEAST a year." This on TOP of what you ALREADY haven't delivered or, worse yet, have already screwed up beyond all recognition. And, the CSM just applauded you guys for it; and all was smiles and giggles up in Iceland. Are you guys ALL really that detached from reality? Do NONE of you see where this is OBVIOUSLY going?

"No new content for at least a year" are the words and kiss of DEATH in MMO-land for cripes sake!!! Big new SCI-Fi titles VERY RECENTLY came out. You don't think they won't accept your PREVIOUS customers with open arms? CCP has ALWAYS succeeded in spite of itself, largely, because there was no real competition in it's genre. Got news for you CCP: THAT IS CHANGING; FAST. None of your competition has gotten "it" exactly right yet. But, it's GOING to happen. And when it does, you'll have NOTHING to respond with. Part of me thinks you actually KNOW that; and are now simply in the mode of delaying the inevitable as long as possible.

Yeah. I guess I am going to have to face facts that after 8 years I have to find a new hobby. Time to let my accounts expire I guess. Don't want to. I really don't. But, its not like news like this from CCP and the CSM is leaving me many realistic options. I mean, there is no hope coming right from the top all the way down "to the floor" at CCP. And the CSM is just cheering them along all the way. And NO, no one can have my stuff; I'd rather set it all on fire.

What complete and utter betrayal CCP; just when I thought you could sink no lower.

Quadruple check, out.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#205 - 2012-01-18 04:35:50 UTC
Amelia Diamant wrote:
Furthermore, JF are not a tool of power projection. They have zero offensive use whatsoever.


"Amateurs study tactics. Armchair generals study strategy. Professionals study logistics." — Omar Bradley

"The Army marches on its stomach." — Military proverb

Now please tell me again how freighters are not a tool of power projection? Where does the a mo come from? Where do the minerals to build thing in nullsec come from? What is the essential component for a strong war machine?

That's right: logistics. Freighters jumping through safe systems are the spine of null sec alliances.
Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#206 - 2012-01-18 04:44:38 UTC
Talia Nachtigall wrote:
The Drake is fine! Why the hell does it need to be nerfed? A Hurricane can stand toe to toe with it, a Harbinger can, and so can a Myrmidon. Jesus christ. Screw up this game more?!
The drake's big problem in PvP is that it is unique: it's the only T1 missile boat that is generally fleet-worthy.

The caracal has a 100+km engagement range, but does weak cruiser damage with weak cruiser tank and weak cruiser speed. In a T1 cruiser arena, it absolutely dominates. Stick a battleship or HAC on the field and watch the caracal crumple.

The cruise Raven isn't bad, but when your biggest selling point is that you can engage for moderate damage almost out to lock range, but with a 30 second lag, it's hard to compete with sniper gunship or alpha BS.

The drake only gets ~75km range, but it's not bad within that range. A Tengu is significantly better offensively, but it costs 10-20x as much.

The drake is also a very forgiving boat to fly. This, combined with a relatively low SP requirement and cost, is what makes it attractive in big, laggy blobs. It's a tough, semi-mobile missile battery. Warp in, start spewing missiles, and take advantage of your impressive buffer tank. Each missile volley isn't that potent compared to a gunship, but with enough of them you'll eventually take the target down.

As such, everyone looks at the drake and thinks the hull is the problem, because it dominates the "cheap missile brawler" category. But there's nothing else in that category, or even close to it. All the other missile ships are snipers (mostly useless) or skirmishers.

(As for "doing everything well", can I introduce you to the triad of rifter-hurricane-maelstrom?)

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?

Soulpirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#207 - 2012-01-18 04:58:07 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Soulpirate wrote:
Quote:
The CSM and CCP both acknowledged the need to rebalance Drake, which ‘does everything too too well’. CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinetic damage bonus and instead gain a rate of fire bonus and a missile velocity bonus. The CSM vehemently approved of this idea. CCP and the CSM also agreed that this possible change to the Drake would help add more uniqueness to the Nighthawk, which is presently overshadowed entirely by the Drake.


Boosting the Nighthawk by nerfing the Drake? Huh? What?

The Drake "does everything too well"?? Did you guys leave the cap off the whiteout during these meetings?

The only thing nerfing the Drake will do is put more people in Tengus, not Nighthawks.

If you want to add uniqueness to the Nighthawk, add uniqueness to the Nighthawk.

For fun I just did a D-scan in a level 4 mission system. 16 ships(1 Golem, 1 Noctis, 1 shuttle, 13 Tengus)

Maybe the Drakes are all blitzing level 5 missions somewhere. Roll


PvE Ship Balance doesn't actually matter. Sorry. Nobody cares what people run PvE content in.

All that matters there is relative reward for various activities.

Drakes are too versatile in PvP. And that's where balance between ships actually matters.

PvP balance can never ever ever happen in an MMO. Nerfing PvE gameplay for sake of PvP
will always end in failure. Seen it too may times.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#208 - 2012-01-18 04:59:45 UTC
Michus Danether wrote:
think a lot of people don't realize how flying a supercarrier is different than other things. Yes yes, training for the FOTM is bad but you can always dock up and reship out of a nano vagabond, but you can't do that with a supercarrier.


So you can't park a supercap in a POS? Does training to fly a supercap mean you can no longer fly any other ship type? I didn't realise that training supercarrier skill wiped out your frigate, cruiser, battle-cruiser and battleship skills Cry

You don't need to be able to protect your alliance-level infrastructure from alliance-level warfare by docking in an invulnerable structure. The purpose of supercapitals is to die spectacularly for the glory of the Alliance. Nothing more, nothing less. They are not ratting ships, they re not private taxis, they are not penis extensions. They are tools for alliance warfare.
Jimmy Nickson
The Lucky Star
#209 - 2012-01-18 05:07:48 UTC
Read is nice.

Multiple Market's into one umm... intresting not seeing how that would work.


FW being beta for null-sec yes and no... the idea of miltia having leaders and ranks is absolutly absurd considering how many multiple entities are in each miltia with their own achievments and desired game play. Some RP some pvp (not including ISK grinding alts), who's to say that RP'ers which can be forum jockies or people who are purly after system control are to lead the pvp'ers and who's to say the pvp'ers have any say on what the RP'ers do? They mainly just co-op together to get kills and because of friendships formed in combat against a common enemy. There can be very agressive interaction between certain players or corperations in the same miltia. Don't get me wrong I reckon it could work very well, but at the same time there are so many entities half the time leaders would be ignor'd and if CTA's become common in militia many a FW player I know would say... WE ARE GOING TO HELL! and **** this.... because even though often people pvp continously you find allot of people afk doing rl stuff so fleets can often feel empty at certain times of the day...

The idea of sov mechanic's though could be very intresting because of increase desire to control systems so more conflict occures - yes pls it means somthing is actualy done to fw rather than sitting in a pile of forum complaints.

Master Account - sounds intresting.

Fire ze missiles!
Liranan
H A V O C Industrial
Fraternity.
#210 - 2012-01-18 05:17:15 UTC
NO ******* WAY. I just spent 30 minutes writing a post and the ******* forums ate it!! EvilEvilEvil

http://www.youtube.com/user/zeitgeistmovie?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/23/Lio3n66bwOo This shit's got to go - Jacque Fresco

Teranul
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#211 - 2012-01-18 05:25:38 UTC
Moatra wrote:

I don't disagree that Skill Points reward loyalty. I also don't want to see respecs. I do, however, question that skill points are needed. Skill Books, yes, but points... no.

I like this train of thought.

When you think about it, the skill system as it currently is represents a barrier of entry to certain ships or items that is overcome entirely through patience. As it is, many players see this as a feature of the game, adding to the Darwinian "survival-of-the-fittest"-style gameplay the game is most well-known for. Once this barrier is overcome, however, it is pretty much there forever and never, ever comes into account ever again.

Thing is, this adds basically nothing to the actual gameplay. Once you have it, you're done, that's it - all you have to worry about is updating your med clone. This is completely unlike, say, the ISK cost of a ship or item, which you have to recoup every time you lose. And when you think about the HUGE number of players that have been turned off from the game because of this system, well... is it really worth it? I mean, the game is well known for the (false) reputation that a new player can never, ever catch up to a veteran player because of the skill system. If you removed the skill point system, what do you have?

Obviously, removal of such a major system is not something to be done lightly. With skill point gates removed, the only barrier to entry for higher-tier items becomes isk, which means a lot of T1 ships and items suddenly become obsolete - well, more obsolete than they already are, at any rate. And, of course, it would devalue a lot of the characters that take a lot more time to create - namely, capital and supercapital pilots. The entire game would have to be rebalanced on the assumption that everyone has access to every ship and every item as soon as they possess enough ISK to attain it (and replace it).

If you ask me, however, the game SHOULD be balanced like that in the first place, because that is the inevitable end-result even with this current system, because eventually everybody will have all the skills they want at some point or another, simply because that's how the system works. But I digress.

I really like this idea, but then, I have no great investment in the skill system as it is, so of course my attachment level is far lower than most of the veterans. I think, at the very least, it's something to keep in mind.
Plutonian
Intransigent
#212 - 2012-01-18 06:02:57 UTC
Liranan wrote:
NO ******* WAY. I just spent 30 minutes writing a post and the ******* forums ate it!! EvilEvilEvil


IMPORTANT:
ALWAYS select and copy your text before you hit post or preview buttons. Than at least you can repost it if the forums eat it. It's a crappy workaround, but will keep you from retyping or walking away.


Totally against the skill respec. Wouldn't mind the ability to drop skills that I don't use anymore (cough... hulk training... cough). Don't want those skills back, and they inflate my clone cost. At high skill point levels it's be really stupid to go running about null sec... your clone is generally worth more than your ship and fittings.

Glad to see T1 frigate and cruiser rebalance. Hope it gets here soon. Lowsec's always been pretty desolate, but it's far worse now.

Would love to see CCP focus on the one thing lowsec does better than any other region in the game: part-time PvP. Get it through your skulls... the Highsec Bears aren't ever coming to the party. We don't need more rewards! We need LESS RESTRICTIONS! We need cheapish ships that can perform well, so that Empire players looking for some fun can operate without substantial restrictions and without being crippled.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#213 - 2012-01-18 06:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
As a Caldari EWAR pilot, I have some concerns regarding the discussed rebalancing issues with Drakes and ECM.

tl;dr #1: ECM working as intended. Pilots need to learn to PvP better.

First, ECM works fine. There are a variety of ways to defeat it. The way the mechanics work now, unless you (ECM user) has ECM skills well trained and are flying a bonused ship and your target is in a small (read sub BC) ship, your target still has a reasonable chance to escape getting jammed. Fitting an ECCM module of the appropriate type is almost a guarantee of ECM immunity for T2 cruisers or BCs and bigger vs any single jammer module.

There are also Friend or Foe missiles and drones that could care less about ECM. Recons all have a sensor recalibration delay even with max skills. So there is plenty of opportunity and method to counter ECM. It is up to more experienced pilots to learn and disseminate information to their less experienced corp/alliance mates on how to counter ECM.

tl;dr #2: If you nerf the Drake, you must also nerf the Hurricane. Nighthawk is fine.

Drake and Hurricane fulfill the exact same role in every way. PvE and PvP. They are similar in use and application. The only difference is race, such as the typical racial bonuses associated with those ships, and the profiles of the weapons they fit. If you nerf only the Drake, Hurricanes will be the only BC used in fleet PvP. That is not good for Eve in any way.

As for the Drake overshadowing the Nighthawk, what kind of crap is that? Drake =/= command ship. I have never heard of a command link actually being fitted to a T1 BC, even though they have the CPU reduction bonus for it. The Nighthawk has nearly as much dps and a much better passive tank with less fitting space (rigs/mids, and the extra low is for a Reactor Control so you can fit the damn command link). Over shadowed my ass.

Half the problem is that other racial command ships are simply better. (Read: winmatar, or Amarr armor tanking in large fleets.) Again, look at racial balancing before crying nerf for Drakes.

Separate the two roles more. Remove the silly and rarely (if ever) used command link bonus on T1 BCs and replace it with something else. Or don't replace it. Just remove it. Give the Command Ships better damage bonuses, like the one discussed. Remove kinetic bonus for RoF or an across the board medium missile damage bonus.

Nighthawk is a field command ship. Not a front line dps ship. It's like a Combat recon is to cruisers. Give it more grid so you can fit a complete T2 passive tank in the mids, same as the Drake, as well as the BCS and SPRs, as well as the full compliment of launchers and a command link. Now move that extra low that was required for the RCU and make it a mid. Congrats. Nighthawk is now better in nearly every way to the Drake. Only slightly less dps.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#214 - 2012-01-18 06:18:04 UTC
You people need to stop jerking yourselves and each other off over sov-dullsec "warfare."

Many of us, not only do we not see it as an endgame, we want to stay as far away from it as possible.


Ni.

mkint
#215 - 2012-01-18 06:22:55 UTC
Teranul wrote:
Moatra wrote:

I don't disagree that Skill Points reward loyalty. I also don't want to see respecs. I do, however, question that skill points are needed. Skill Books, yes, but points... no.

I like this train of thought.

When you think about it, the skill system as it currently is represents a barrier of entry to certain ships or items that is overcome entirely through patience. As it is, many players see this as a feature of the game, adding to the Darwinian "survival-of-the-fittest"-style gameplay the game is most well-known for. Once this barrier is overcome, however, it is pretty much there forever and never, ever comes into account ever again.

Thing is, this adds basically nothing to the actual gameplay. Once you have it, you're done, that's it - all you have to worry about is updating your med clone. This is completely unlike, say, the ISK cost of a ship or item, which you have to recoup every time you lose. And when you think about the HUGE number of players that have been turned off from the game because of this system, well... is it really worth it? I mean, the game is well known for the (false) reputation that a new player can never, ever catch up to a veteran player because of the skill system. If you removed the skill point system, what do you have?

Obviously, removal of such a major system is not something to be done lightly. With skill point gates removed, the only barrier to entry for higher-tier items becomes isk, which means a lot of T1 ships and items suddenly become obsolete - well, more obsolete than they already are, at any rate. And, of course, it would devalue a lot of the characters that take a lot more time to create - namely, capital and supercapital pilots. The entire game would have to be rebalanced on the assumption that everyone has access to every ship and every item as soon as they possess enough ISK to attain it (and replace it).

If you ask me, however, the game SHOULD be balanced like that in the first place, because that is the inevitable end-result even with this current system, because eventually everybody will have all the skills they want at some point or another, simply because that's how the system works. But I digress.

I really like this idea, but then, I have no great investment in the skill system as it is, so of course my attachment level is far lower than most of the veterans. I think, at the very least, it's something to keep in mind.

lol, I promise if they ever remove the SP/time delay, I will transfer all my assets to one character, suicide gank everyting in sight, biomass it, start a new toon, buy the books, and be back to suicide ganking within minutes. Clean reputation, clean employment history, clean sec status, fat wallet... there would be no reason to NOT drive out as many noobs as I can line up my crosshairs on.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

mkint
#216 - 2012-01-18 06:26:36 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
You people need to stop jerking yourselves and each other off over sov-dullsec "warfare."

Many of us, not only do we not see it as an endgame, we want to stay as far away from it as possible.



And that is the problem. At least for people who care about EVE, not people who pay their mortgages off their RMT'd sov income. The CSM doesn't want you to actually get sov. They jsut want you to try to get sov, so they can blow you up, so their slaves can be entertained and continue to pay their masters mortgages. Which is the unacknowledged problem with EVE, and the reason why summer expansion is already a disapointment.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Crasniya
The Aussienauts
#217 - 2012-01-18 06:27:01 UTC
To the "OMG I want invulnerable jump freighter trips" whiners... instead of having insta-jump capability, why not take the spool-up timer, but in exchange ask for some reasonable defensive accommodations?

Soraya Xel - Council of Planetary Management 1 - soraya@biomassed.net

Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#218 - 2012-01-18 06:30:02 UTC
I read through the entire document. It looks like all the major worries of New Eden are addressed in here. :) I don't know about the magnitude of the problems or if the possible solutions would work (I am very new) but I am glad they are brought to the attention of CCP like this.

Some claim nullsec is over-represented on the CSM, but the CSM appears to make suggestions that would detriment (or express dissatisfation with CCP suggestions that would benefit) their alliances, their assets and their positions on the CSM, in the interest of the game. Many issues that affect highsec and faction war are also mentioned. I have full confidence in the CSM and I hope CCP takes everything they have to say under advisement.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2012-01-18 06:30:17 UTC
While I'm glad CCP wants to incentivize FW system capture, some of these ideas are just boneheaded. Militia elections are thoroughly stupid and I would bet whoever came up with that idea has no real FW experience. The only possible way it would not be gamed by other entities is if voting rights were tied into how many VPs were earned through running plexes.

The real problem is that there is a PVE component to FW at all, or that it is so profitable. Killing enemy ships and capturing systems should be worth way more LP than doing a bunch of LVL 4s. Currently this is not the case. We're tired of legions of mission alts that don't contribute anything to FW and just drive the prices down on the things we need to sell in order to finance our PVP.

And lastly, keep alliances the **** out of faction warfare. They have no place whatsoever. Is there anyone in FW who actively wants this? I mean beyond just saying 'meh it'll give me more targets to shoot.' I would bet there isn't much support for this actually in the FW community.
Widemouth Deepthroat
Pink Sockers
#220 - 2012-01-18 06:54:51 UTC
Just imagine your titan being permajammed by a single 2 month old character flying a kitsune. This is Mittani's idea for Veteran reward program lol.