These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[November] Orca Changes

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Jin Kugu
Make Luv Not War
Goonswarm Federation
#101 - 2016-10-05 13:16:03 UTC
Goati wrote:
Jin Kugu wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:
Please increase the Scan Resolution on the Orca.

Put it this way: can a high-sec Orca even lock one of the Catalysts ganking it before (a) the Orca dies, or (b) all of the Catalysts die? Can the same Orca lock and kill an untanked gank Talos before CONCORD does the job for him?

DPS is useless if you can't apply it.


"My 530k ehp afk mining boat isn't strong enough!"

EDIT: apparently a t2 fit orca will easily hit 530k ehp, uggh


Calculations show a T2 orca can now easily reach more than 600k EHP.


Yeah, I forgot the new mid slot. This EHP race to the top is getting ridiculous.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#102 - 2016-10-05 13:22:30 UTC
Jin Kugu wrote:
Yeah, I forgot the new mid slot. This EHP race to the top is getting ridiculous.

The EHP race is getting necessary.

Perspective: Orca does a lot of different things. But it's now being tasked with sitting pretty in belts, where it used to have better defense sitting on a station or deep safe. Miners got the Skiff, Rorq got EHP buff, Orca gets EHP buff, because they're being brought on-grid. If the opposite were happening - that they were being unchained and allowed to boost from POS's...then an EHP buff would seem ridiculous. But remember this is what balance looks like. Orca becomes a more visible, gets EHP boost to compensate.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Galinius Valgani
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2016-10-05 13:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Galinius Valgani
So what is the new Gank calculation

600k EHP

1 Gank Catalyst with 600 DPS
20 seconds Concord reaction time
Thats 12000 Damage Done per Catalyst before Concord.

So it will require 50 Catalyst to gank a Orca?
Perhaps a ganker with more accurate numbers may update?

I Think otherwise it is a bit too abstract if the Orca is to strong or to weak.
I do not want to gank...I simply want to estimate the new power of the Orca properly.
Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
#104 - 2016-10-05 14:47:20 UTC
Galinius Valgani wrote:
So it will require 50 Catalyst to gank a Orca?

It will require 1 Stabber with an oversized MWD to bump the Orca 50km off the belt within 60 seconds where his Mining Drones are next to useless. That's 15m ISK invest.
Next we will see a website coming up... it will be called "minerBUMPING.com" and those bumpers will celebrate that they can bump Orcas out off the belts in highsec 24/7 without criminal flag, without sec loss, without CONCORD showing up and - to talk about balancing - WITHOUT ANYTHING THE ORCA PILOT CAN DO TO PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING.
Oh wait - the website already exists - they have just forgotten where they come from.

500k eHP is next to useless if you are 50km away from the belt and can't warp for as long the bumper don't want him to warp.

Brain-in-a-box is a nice thing, unfortunately most people forget to put it back into their heads when crying about ungankable Orcas in highsec. This is EVE - you don't need guns to ruin a miners day.
Coelomate
Gilliomate Corp
#105 - 2016-10-05 15:05:38 UTC
These changes look really exciting - lots of new options and moving parts, which will make for fun theorycrafting and experimentation. Thanks CCP!

Re: the Orca's ore drones: The blog's 1,400m3 max yield number probably assumes use of the new faction mining drones (augmented mining drones). Without stats for those, it might be impossible to do the math. So the number will be lower with just mining drone IIs.

As others have noticed, 1,400m3 yield for the Orca looks really strong until you realize that (a) mining drone flight time is currently quite low (drone nav computer orca new meta?), and (b) drones don't receive any mining command boosts, so you have to compare the Orca's drone yield peak against boosted barges/exhumers.

A hulk with Orca boosts easily clears 2,000m3 with no drone flight time worries, so I doubt you'll see a lot of multiboxed orca mining fleets. I think the Orca's yield number is in a really good place, as it means an Orca will almost always increase total yield of the fleet, rather than only increasing total yield after fleet size gets above ~4 pilots. Small mining ops or players multiboxing just 2 or 3 clients now have more interesting and expensive tools at their disposal, which is great.

Given the number of roles the Orca can now occupy, fits will be really interesting. Max tank will still be the 'correct' choice in many applications, but you'll see some silly things done to maximize travel time, cargo capacity, and drone mining - which should provide plenty of ganking content. Just like with freighters, choice is good, as it means people can play correctly to increase safety/income or play recklessly and risk the consequences.

Love,

~Coelomate
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#106 - 2016-10-05 15:14:10 UTC
I use my Orca in a slightly non traditional sense... As a mobile traveling base for my exploration character. It's cheaper and more useful than a bowhead. He has never used the ore hold but instead the cargo bay, fleet hangar, and ship bay. In the ship bay he fits a HAC, a Cruiser, a T2 covert ops probe ship, and a T2 faction frig for smaller sites.

Now granted, some of the changes to the ship are wonderful. However, is there any chance we could get a small bonus to probing lumped in with the boosts to survey scan? It does not have to be a boost to probe strength but maybe a role bonus to probe scan speed? This boost could apply to all types and help scan down gas sites faster.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2016-10-05 15:22:11 UTC
Avon Salinder wrote:
Holy crap. I was expecting more power for this ship but this might be a little bit nuts.

I will point out the obvious here that these changes make the mackinaw and skiff obsolete. We seem to have another Svipul effect going on - ships that have been underpowered for a long time get a massive buff, ruining game balance and making other ships in a similar role pointless.

I foresee a future of nothing but orcas in highsec belts, all but immune to ganking and quite possibly leading to a proliferation of bots, since the ore hold is so vast a pilot can just walk away from their keyboard ... unless there are further mining changes in the works to provide more engaging gameplay of course Cool



Wrong. Those of us with multiple accounts and have mined for a decade will still only field one at a time with the mining ships. People will be poaching, so you have to make your losses acceptable when the inevitable cyno is lit and you are dropped. People are far more organized than these boards realize. I promise you a well fit T3 will still blow these up no problem.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2016-10-05 15:24:49 UTC
Jeanne Deveroux wrote:
Goati wrote:
Who else thinks the Orca is way too powerful now? The idea that it can mine at the rate of an exhumer, with a 187.5k m3 ore hold, with huge EHP, it's just ridiulous. Orca is meant to be a support ship, not an exhumer equivalent mining vessel on steroids.

Why even use Exhumer any more? Orca costs 2-3 times more sure, but you only pay that once. You can be sure it won't be ganked if you know how to fit it, especially with the the new EHP.

I think CCP have gotten carried away and made it way too powerful. If you must keep the mining abilities, it should be able to mine at max about 50% the rate of an exhumer - that way it's more worth to mine in Exhumers and we don't get the ridiculous situation of people choosing Orcas over Exhumers as primary miners as their yields are the same.

Seriously, with Exhumer level yield and 187k m3 ore hold, who wouldn't spend 2-3 times more and just mine in an orca instead of an Exhumer? Fit right It will be near ungankable and is an afk miners dream, crazy. It is beyond a joke.

The solution; make the Orca max personal mining ability be at about 50% of that of an Exhumer. Still worth an additional mining for the fleet without taking the role as best/primary miner away from Exhumers.



This.

Just rename it to Ultimate AFK Miner and remove all other mining ships from the game.


Drama drum roll. Just for you. You do not play the same game I do obviously.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2016-10-05 15:29:49 UTC
Goati wrote:
Who else thinks the Orca is way too powerful now? The idea that it can mine at the rate of an exhumer, with a 187.5k m3 ore hold, with huge EHP, it's just ridiulous. Orca is meant to be a support ship, not an exhumer equivalent mining vessel on steroids.

Why even use Exhumer any more? Orca costs 2-3 times more sure, but you only pay that once. You can be sure it won't be ganked if you know how to fit it, especially with the the new EHP.

I think CCP have gotten carried away and made it way too powerful. If you must keep the mining abilities, it should be able to mine at max about 50% the rate of an exhumer - that way it's more worth to mine in Exhumers and we don't get the ridiculous situation of people choosing Orcas over Exhumers as primary miners as their yields are the same.

Seriously, with Exhumer level yield and 187k m3 ore hold, who wouldn't spend 2-3 times more and just mine in an orca instead of an Exhumer? Fit right It will be near ungankable and is an afk miners dream, crazy. It is beyond a joke.

The solution; make the Orca max personal mining ability be at about 50% of that of an Exhumer. Still worth an additional mining for the fleet without taking the role as best/primary miner away from Exhumers.


It is not. It will get ganked in high sec and killed. It will be ganked in low/null and be killed. Just because its not the most useless ship on the board now means nothing. People are organized and cant wait to get on a kill that is halfway challenging. I am an indy guy and cant wait to get in on some of these juicy kills myself. Very cool changes. Believe me, there will be counter flames soon saying they are not strong enough, players are far more crafty than realized. All in all, it is a good balance.
Goati
Doomheim
#110 - 2016-10-05 15:33:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Goati
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Goati wrote:
Who else thinks the Orca is way too powerful now? The idea that it can mine at the rate of an exhumer, with a 187.5k m3 ore hold, with huge EHP, it's just ridiulous. Orca is meant to be a support ship, not an exhumer equivalent mining vessel on steroids.

Why even use Exhumer any more? Orca costs 2-3 times more sure, but you only pay that once. You can be sure it won't be ganked if you know how to fit it, especially with the the new EHP.

I think CCP have gotten carried away and made it way too powerful. If you must keep the mining abilities, it should be able to mine at max about 50% the rate of an exhumer - that way it's more worth to mine in Exhumers and we don't get the ridiculous situation of people choosing Orcas over Exhumers as primary miners as their yields are the same.

Seriously, with Exhumer level yield and 187k m3 ore hold, who wouldn't spend 2-3 times more and just mine in an orca instead of an Exhumer? Fit right It will be near ungankable and is an afk miners dream, crazy. It is beyond a joke.

The solution; make the Orca max personal mining ability be at about 50% of that of an Exhumer. Still worth an additional mining for the fleet without taking the role as best/primary miner away from Exhumers.


It is not. It will get ganked in high sec and killed. It will be ganked in low/null and be killed. Just because its not the most useless ship on the board now means nothing. People are organized and cant wait to get on a kill that is halfway challenging. I am an indy guy and cant wait to get in on some of these juicy kills myself. Very cool changes. Believe me, there will be counter flames soon saying they are not strong enough, players are far more crafty than realized. All in all, it is a good balance.


Only non fit ones will be ganked and killed. A properly fit one will have 600k ehp. Nobody is going to suicide gank them with that much HP, just as they don't suicide gank the 400k EHP properly fit orcas we have now.

The only counter to this Orca set up is bumping it. As it's the only counter, there's going to be a lot of mad players getting bumped all over the place.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#111 - 2016-10-05 15:45:10 UTC
Samsara Toldya wrote:
WITHOUT ANYTHING THE ORCA PILOT CAN DO TO PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING.

Well that is a bit exaggerated isn't it? I mean you can always just gank the bumper, they have a lot less EHP than an Orca. As someone else already mentioned in this thread:
TomyLobo wrote:
If fielding enough talos/tornados to kill a well fit orca stabber is a problem for you, maybe it's time to look at another occupation?

Evil RatKid
Black Pedro
Mine.
#112 - 2016-10-05 15:47:32 UTC
Samsara Toldya wrote:
Galinius Valgani wrote:
So it will require 50 Catalyst to gank a Orca?

It will require 1 Stabber with an oversized MWD to bump the Orca 50km off the belt within 60 seconds where his Mining Drones are next to useless. That's 15m ISK invest.
Next we will see a website coming up... it will be called "minerBUMPING.com" and those bumpers will celebrate that they can bump Orcas out off the belts in highsec 24/7 without criminal flag, without sec loss, without CONCORD showing up and - to talk about balancing - WITHOUT ANYTHING THE ORCA PILOT CAN DO TO PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING.
Oh wait - the website already exists - they have just forgotten where they come from.

500k eHP is next to useless if you are 50km away from the belt and can't warp for as long the bumper don't want him to warp.

Brain-in-a-box is a nice thing, unfortunately most people forget to put it back into their heads when crying about ungankable Orcas in highsec. This is EVE - you don't need guns to ruin a miners day.

This is true, bumping will be a thing, and probably a pretty entertaining thing given how much more rage it generally induces in highsec miners.

But that number of 50 Catalysts probably should merit a second look. That amount of DPS is almost unseen in highsec, even in current freighter ganking fleets. 50 people don't get together to do anything in highsec, especially to gank a mining ship at a loss. These things literally won't die.

That's fine if that is CCPs intention to make these things ungankable (which highsec miscreants will also exploit to carry out risk-free logistics and ship-switching), but that means there is nothing you can do to explode one you take issue with unless you can muster a null-sec sized fleet. Are you sure you want these things to be that safe CCP?

In any case, this may all be moot. If Rorqual adoption becomes wide-spread, the ore market is in for a massive realignment with highsec miners ending up on the (very) short end of the stick. If highsec mining income is cut by a factor of two or four by fleets of super-boosted Rorquals out-competing them, then even multiboxing fleets might not be worth the time to run in highsec and we may not see anyone in the belts at all but new players mining for peanuts. I guess ice mining will still be a thing though.

Interesting times are indeed ahead.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
#113 - 2016-10-05 15:54:33 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
As someone else already mentioned in this thread:
TomyLobo wrote:
If fielding enough talos/tornados to kill a well fit orca stabber is a problem for you, maybe it's time to look at another occupation?

We did it during the last Ice Interdiction where Bumpers where much more of a threat than Goonswarms Catalysts.
Yet there are already several 'pro-gankers' donating high-quality tears to the new afk-miner-masterrace without even considering that bumping is much more annoying than ganking.
I'm not asking for a bump-resistance. I think the Orca boni are a bit overpowered and will get adjusted early next year.
Ofc, this is EVE, I'm trying to exploit as much of its power until it is nerfed.

I consider sth balanced when both sides - gankers and miners - share tears :)
Alphaclone Bumpers will have a lot of fun while some bored Orca pilots will get some ISK for their skills.
Fair play.
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#114 - 2016-10-05 16:36:27 UTC
There are so many calls for the Orca to have compression in this thread. I have a slightly better idea, a deployable compression array similar to the MTU or mobile depot. POS compression arrays will be going the way of the dodo soon enough. I recommend taking the POS compression array feature set, make it deployable and give it the same reinforcement mechanics as a mobile depot.

Doing this would:
  • Provide for a perceived need (compression in the belts) Smile
  • And supplement multiple hulls (mining frigates, mining barges, exhumers, the Porpoise and the Orca)Big smile
  • While creating conflict drivers (gank/war targets)Twisted

It could possible even revive the mining battleship Shocked
Darrien
Ouroboros Logistics
#115 - 2016-10-05 17:07:15 UTC
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
There are so many calls for the Orca to have compression in this thread. I have a slightly better idea, a deployable compression array similar to the MTU or mobile depot. POS compression arrays will be going the way of the dodo soon enough. I recommend taking the POS compression array feature set, make it deployable and give it the same reinforcement mechanics as a mobile depot.

Doing this would:
  • Provide for a perceived need (compression in the belts) Smile
  • And supplement multiple hulls (mining frigates, mining barges, exhumers, the Porpoise and the Orca)Big smile
  • While creating conflict drivers (gank/war targets)Twisted

It could possible even revive the mining battleship Shocked


With all the public Citadels dotted about these days, can't really see the need for the Orca to have compression.
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#116 - 2016-10-05 17:25:32 UTC
Darrien wrote:
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
There are so many calls for the Orca to have compression in this thread. I have a slightly better idea, a deployable compression array similar to the MTU or mobile depot. POS compression arrays will be going the way of the dodo soon enough. I recommend taking the POS compression array feature set, make it deployable and give it the same reinforcement mechanics as a mobile depot.

Doing this would:
  • Provide for a perceived need (compression in the belts) Smile
  • And supplement multiple hulls (mining frigates, mining barges, exhumers, the Porpoise and the Orca)Big smile
  • While creating conflict drivers (gank/war targets)Twisted

It could possible even revive the mining battleship Shocked


With all the public Citadels dotted about these days, can't really see the need for the Orca to have compression.



I think you missed my point...(read the bold underline)
Careby
#117 - 2016-10-05 17:28:01 UTC
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
There are so many calls for the Orca to have compression in this thread. I have a slightly better idea, a deployable compression array similar to the MTU or mobile depot. POS compression arrays will be going the way of the dodo soon enough. I recommend taking the POS compression array feature set, make it deployable and give it the same reinforcement mechanics as a mobile depot.


In my opinion the first thing that needs to be done to ore compression is to give citadel owners the option to turn it off or charge for it. It's currently free and can't be disabled as long as the reprocessing service is running. This makes no sense to me. If compression adds value, why is it free? And if it's going to continue to be free and widely available, why not add it to the Orca? Even gankers should support it because an Orca with a full hold of compressed ore will make a very fine killmail.
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#118 - 2016-10-05 18:39:05 UTC
Careby wrote:
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
.... I have a slightly better idea, a deployable compression array similar to the MTU or mobile depot...


In my opinion the first thing that needs to be done to ore compression is to give citadel owners the option to turn it off or charge for it. It's currently free and can't be disabled as long as the reprocessing service is running. This makes no sense to me. If compression adds value, why is it free? And if it's going to continue to be free and widely available, why not add it to the Orca? Even gankers should support it because an Orca with a full hold of compressed ore will make a very fine killmail.


I don't disagree with your points regarding the citadels compression abilities, tbh I don't understand why CCP did this. I say remove compression from citadels completely and implement my suggestion or something similar to it. It is a content promoter where as compression in citadels does nothing but provide a free service to freeloaders.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2016-10-05 18:52:42 UTC
Goati wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Goati wrote:
Who else thinks the Orca is way too powerful now? The idea that it can mine at the rate of an exhumer, with a 187.5k m3 ore hold, with huge EHP, it's just ridiulous. Orca is meant to be a support ship, not an exhumer equivalent mining vessel on steroids.

Why even use Exhumer any more? Orca costs 2-3 times more sure, but you only pay that once. You can be sure it won't be ganked if you know how to fit it, especially with the the new EHP.

I think CCP have gotten carried away and made it way too powerful. If you must keep the mining abilities, it should be able to mine at max about 50% the rate of an exhumer - that way it's more worth to mine in Exhumers and we don't get the ridiculous situation of people choosing Orcas over Exhumers as primary miners as their yields are the same.

Seriously, with Exhumer level yield and 187k m3 ore hold, who wouldn't spend 2-3 times more and just mine in an orca instead of an Exhumer? Fit right It will be near ungankable and is an afk miners dream, crazy. It is beyond a joke.

The solution; make the Orca max personal mining ability be at about 50% of that of an Exhumer. Still worth an additional mining for the fleet without taking the role as best/primary miner away from Exhumers.


It is not. It will get ganked in high sec and killed. It will be ganked in low/null and be killed. Just because its not the most useless ship on the board now means nothing. People are organized and cant wait to get on a kill that is halfway challenging. I am an indy guy and cant wait to get in on some of these juicy kills myself. Very cool changes. Believe me, there will be counter flames soon saying they are not strong enough, players are far more crafty than realized. All in all, it is a good balance.


Only non fit ones will be ganked and killed. A properly fit one will have 600k ehp. Nobody is going to suicide gank them with that much HP, just as they don't suicide gank the 400k EHP properly fit orcas we have now.

The only counter to this Orca set up is bumping it. As it's the only counter, there's going to be a lot of mad players getting bumped all over the place.


Ill link the km when it happens.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2016-10-05 19:39:32 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Agreed that the hull drop is pitiful compared to what was gained in shield HP and utility, but I can see the logic: It's moving to an always in the belt role, it's becoming an active miner, a logi? and a capable defender.

So more HP I guess.

As a lowsec miner - I'd liked to have seen a 3rd lowslot and T2 resists but as my orca will now have a slightly better chance of not only surviving the odd attack but have the ability to deal some DPS as a deterrent, I say these changes are just about right.

No more being held on grid for 10 minutes by a lone ceptor while his buddies travel 10 jumps to get on the kill.
-- - -- - -- - --
A compression module for the Orca would be nice, having to dock it up every 16 or 17 minutes to empty it or have a freighter on standby (especially in lowsec), pretty much defeats its ongrid role.

Suggestion; Highslot module, lowsec/nulsec activation only, 300 Heavy water to activate (reduces by 25% per lvl Capital Industrial Ships) 60 second activation time, no auto repeat. Works just like its Rorqual counterpart by immobilizing the Orca for the duration of the cycle (has a nice clear animation so everyone nearby can see it is active)
Sure, as i said the role is changing a great deal. I just think the drop in hull HP could have been more substantial from a highsec perspective since the shield HP is all that much more valuable typically. I'm not saying a 1:1 relation of shield gained to hull lost of anything, but there could be a slightly greater sacrifice for the full package gained.

Either way it's IMHO not enough to be worth fighting over.