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[November] Rorqual Changes

First post First post First post
Author
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#161 - 2016-10-05 10:10:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
Gustav Mannfred wrote:
18000m3 per minute is more than 10 times more than an exumer(hulk has about 1600m3 per minute)..

Your math is VERY wrong. My hulk mines significantly more than that per laser. In reality, it will be a little more than 4 hulks. If that.

Gustav Mannfred wrote:
Is there any reason to bring some mining berges?

Yes. To mine out the mercoxit. Or because you don't feel comfortable putting 15+ Billion isk on grid at the moment.


Gustav Mannfred wrote:
2. With 10ly jumprange and its insane drone dps bonus this ship becomes the #1 choise for hotdroping and pvp. It is also like the old carriers, with its 15 effective heavy drones it has the same amount as carriers were able to launch before citadel. This also makes it again possibile to run havens and sanctums afk and get about 40 mil per tick or so.

No, for the same reason you don't rat in a dreadnaught. You finish the site in 10 minutes then spend 5 waiting for the siege cycle to end so you can move to the next one. By the time you warp and land you're making Ishtar level ticks. Likewise if you're going to drop in and siege with a glass cannon fit, why would you not drop a suicide dreadnaught that does 5x the dps of the Rorq for the same cost?

Gustav Mannfred wrote:
3. With its bonuses to RR, this ship is just like a FAX with a lot more DPS. The Industrial core boosts remote reps AND DPS. FAX triage module set drone dps to 0 when activated.

A Rorqual with T2 Capital remote booster repairs 1150 HP per cycle
A Minokawa with same repairs for 7906 HP per cycle


Gustav Mannfred wrote:
solutions:

Along with being largely unnecessary, your solutions do hilarious things like give the Rorqual more cargo capacity than a faction fit cargo expanded jump freighter (while using t2 expanders).

If you want to "afk belt clear" go right ahead. Enjoy your 50km drone trips with the excavator drone's 138m/s after skill bonuses. 18000 m3 per cycle, ~785 second cycles for a round trip. That will be around 1400 m3 per minute. It will net you less income than a procurer with Porpoise boosts.

As for the impact to the t1 market, T2 is so cheap and effective that T1 honestly should come down in price.
Ratting carriers push 200 mil an hour. There are still plenty of people ratting in all sorts of subcapital ships. Just because a mining capital ship will pull what a capital should, does not mean smaller scale miners will cease their activities.
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#162 - 2016-10-05 11:21:17 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Soleil Fournier wrote:
a whole lot of supercaps being built.

Making them more accessible and expendable in general may not be a terrible thing for the game.

The issue is more that the people who already have large stockpiles of them are the ones in position to take advantage of this change to build more. This is not a good thing for new entities trying to enter the arena in the short term. In the long term, we may see more than one massive fight every few years (when someone screws up) as the losses will be more recoverable.

And less special.
If you've ever played SWTOR, there were a LOT of side quests involving Sith and dark Jedi (or Jedi/rival Sith if you're an imp).
Force users were supposed to be special in the Star Wars universe, but copypasting a bunch of them makes them... not.
Or: Yes, you might get these huge fleet fights more often, but creating an eclipse with a bunch of titans won't be epic or special if it happens too often. The whole point of those things was to be rare and epic special. Putting the yield of mining ships where they are now took that away.
Quote:
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Why not allow cloaking while the industrial core is active?

Because what is realistically 4 minutes or less is insufficient to sweep a grid for a cloaked ship. Assuming you found the right grid to start with. Also because I don't know where you get the idea of the Rorqual warping off. You would decloak and immediately jump to a cyno in tether range of a citadel.

So take jump drive away from it?
Making it warp around like a slow subcap might not be a bad thing. Having it fit in a jump freighter would mean still being able to buy it in slightly hostile space without it being a deathtrap.

Even with that limitation, it can warp in 10-11 seconds from a dead stop with a microwarpdrive fit.

A signature :o

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#163 - 2016-10-05 11:25:20 UTC
Thanks for the feedback so far everyone.

A couple quick answers to questions we see coming up multiple times:

  • We're not planning on changing the restrictions on what ships are allowed into the Rorq SMB at this time. The concern with removing the restrictions is that it would become too powerful combined with the increased jump range.
  • The mining foreman ships won't have any ability to mine gas or mercoxit at this time. You'll want to use other ships for mining those substances.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Crave Ma'Lice
Ma'Lice M.'n'T. Inc
#164 - 2016-10-05 11:38:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Crave Ma'Lice
Lickem Lolly wrote:
Mining != PVP

If we wanted to do PVP, we would go do PVP...


Nobody with a brain will siege 1 rorqual in nullsec, unless they are using it as bait. What you will get is blobs of 20-30 rorquals and massive market problems.

Congratulations. You've given a massive financial boost to the largest blobbing nullsec alliances. Everyone else will have to use Orcas. Hope you're happy.


doubt so, for reliable amount of harvested ore you have to park the Rorq within the asteroid as the excav drones will be slow as fu... so every m they have to travel will deplete the isk/h significantly
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#165 - 2016-10-05 11:40:17 UTC
PANIC module wrote:
All turret, missile, drone and smartbomb damage set to 0

What about neuts and ewar? Can I have a wing of Scorpions sitting there invulnerable for the most of the fight and jamming the crap out of enemies?
Queitis
DBCI
C0LD Fusion
#166 - 2016-10-05 11:51:44 UTC
@fozzie
what are your plans to fix the nullsec Heavy water issue?
will you be reducing the amount of ozone in dark glitter and increasing heavy water in it ?

If you swapped the HW and Ozone figures in Dark glitter around, that would resolve a lot of the imbalance issues without doing much to the market
Axes blade
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#167 - 2016-10-05 11:52:31 UTC
I believe they should be able to light a cyno then in P.A.N.I.C mode. However most fleet take at least 15min to get ready so I don’t think It will help the pilot much anyway.

Also does one Rorqual going into P.A.N.I.C protect a 2nd Rorqual in the same fleet?
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Reckless Contingency.
#168 - 2016-10-05 11:52:42 UTC
@CCP Fozzie

Any plans to fix the Heavy water Imbalance?
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Reckless Contingency.
#169 - 2016-10-05 11:53:28 UTC
Axes blade wrote:
I believe they should be able to light a cyno then in P.A.N.I.C mode. However most fleet take at least 15min to get ready so I don’t think It will help the pilot much anyway.

Also does one Rorqual going into P.A.N.I.C protect a 2nd Rorqual in the same fleet?

panic mode dont affect other rorquals

but concidering a reasonable fit rorq will tank 10 dreads... i dont see the issue
Sakul Aubaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2016-10-05 12:35:49 UTC
Am I the only one Thinking, that CCP overshoot a little with the Roqual ?
The Orca seems allright for me but the Roquall is a bit... to much?
I see some winers wine, but with these changes the Roqual might be able to be a new Slowcat.
You have a remote rep range bonus 8 hislots (you use 5 large shieldboosttranfers and not capital ones because without triage they are better and with capchain or capbooster you run stable), a capitalship tank and five sentries and 20 backupsets..
Honestly i don't care about that mining yield, because i don't mine. There more the better, because more minerals -> cheaper combat ships.
But the combat potential of the new roquall is... at least interesting, at worst op.
Zerzzes Markarian
McCloud and Markarian Trade and Logistics Corp.
#171 - 2016-10-05 12:59:17 UTC
I think the changes are better than what I feared. In general I like to see that the Rorqual gets into the field now. It's also good that the Rorqual (and the Orca) can do some significant mining themself. But given the long drone moving times, the yield will be probably much smaller.

However, I don't see many people using the Indy core anymore, because the risk just gets too large (except when you have a large supercap fleet to protect you, an no larger hostile supercap fleet nearby). So not beeing able to compress hurts quite a bit, because you will get full very fast, if one Rorqual supports several barges.

I'm not sure that the concerns of 20 Rorqual fleets come true, except maybe in very remote regions. Because a 20 Rorual fleet would be a dream of any supercap fleet.

The jump range changes are great.
Tiberizzle
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#172 - 2016-10-05 13:16:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberizzle
Everyone seems to be getting really excited about the theoretical yield of the rorqual but they're completely forgetting how bad drone mining mechanics are.

#1. There isn't even a hot key to make the mine, you have to use the context menu.

#2. The drone goes out, mines exactly 1 cycle and then returns with its mining amount.

The excavator drones exist on tranquility right now and they MWD at 100m/s. That's like a 10+ minute round trip to some of the ore site asteroids even with drone navigation comps and skills. The base speed needs to be an order of magnitude higher, or these things will spend over 90% of their time in transit and a sieged rorqual will be considerably worse than a barely trained barge in reality. The other option is that the Rorqual, a capital ship with **** for agility and warp speed that must additionally exit siege, rewarps for basically every individual asteroid it mines, and spends 90%+ of its time in warp... and is considerably worse than a barely trained barge in reality. Even if the drones are much quicker than the preliminary stats imply they will be, that theoretical yield will translate into a real yield of 25-50%, if that, and they'll be barely worth using as an upgrade over a Hulk.

With a theoretical yield of 18400m^3/minute and the speed as they exist on tranquility currently, for an asteroid 40,000m away (i.e. roughly the range something like half of the rocks in a colossal are from the warpin), it will take the drone 800 seconds (13.3 minutes) to travel for every 60 seconds of mining, meaning its real yield is 6.976% of the theoretical 18400 or 1283m^3 per minute. With drone navigation 5 and the MWD bonus from siege it will be 162.5m/s or 492s (8.2 minutes) of travel for 60 seconds of mining, or 10.8% efficiency / 1999m^3 per minute. That's like 20m isk/hr on spod, lol.

Put another way, a rookie ship with Miner II's jetcan mining (187m^3/min) would give an unsieged Rorqual (8.5% efficiency at 40km with 125m/s speed, of 3000m^3/min =257m^3/min) a good contest for most of an ore site after you factor in travel time if the base speed on tranquility is currently representative of final stats.
Elenahina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2016-10-05 13:51:45 UTC
Shalmon Aliatus wrote:
Did you consider letting the Rorqual use every Isotope for jumping ? Kinda sucks that the proud queen of mining is tied too having ships bringing Oxygen Isotopes. Why did ORE choose this jump drive instead of inventing a new one capable of using all Isotopes ? Or did they hit legacy code when they did the research


My guess would be because (AFAIK) that's the type of isotopes produced by the ICE in the region where ORE is located.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Zareph
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#174 - 2016-10-05 13:56:38 UTC
The cyno while in PANIC mode is a perfect option speaking as a 10 year miner.

We *never* put a rorqual in a belt in 0.0 mining operations because it made no sense. While I get the need to change the mining link (and other) mechanics a PANIC button is great for 0.0 mining in an alliance.

I'm concerned about the number of ships, as sometimes you can easily get 30 people in exhumer/mining barges or more, as long as I can protect all 30 (or more) with a panic button, light a cyno and wait for reinforcements that makes staying in a belt worthwhile in my alliance.

Yeah, it can be shot and a 50 to 200 person gang coming along can make it interesting but you should have intel for that and GTFO well before.

The new Exhumer level drones need some mechanic changes, or be able to hold a ton of ore to compensate for them being slow. Parking a rorqual on a rock is difficult due to their lack of manuverability/speed and spending 10m warping in/out to get in position and the inevitable ping pong through a belt of rocks. Either have the drone spit out compressed ore, or carry the highest m3 in the game exhumer or barge. The return / go out trip is sloooow and if I have to waste charges/heavy water waiting that's a little nuts.

Will the PANIC module protect these most likely really expensive drones too? Just the mining ones, not combat.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#175 - 2016-10-05 14:19:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Quote:
P.A.N.I.C. Module:

-50% velocity


Wasn't this supposed to be -100% or is there something going on here?

Also, considering the crazy number of bonuses this thing has, I'm surprised there's no hacking bonus.
Tialano Utrigas
Running with Wolves
Northern Coalition.
#176 - 2016-10-05 14:35:37 UTC
My opinion is that a cyno shouldnt be able to be lit while the PANIC mode is active (be it the rorq or the miner). It WILL end up being used as a cyno ship in large fleet engagements which isnt it's intended use.

This does NOT mean that you cant cyno in back up. It just means that you need to wait for the PANIC mode to cycle first, then light. You can still use the industrial core to supply reps and get the self rep benefits. If there's enough on grid to alpha through your rorq then there are other issues tbh.

I think a slightly favourable outcome might be that a cyno disables and inhibits the PANIC mode on which ever ship lights. That still allows a proc to refit a cyno in PANIC mode but be vul when it lights.
Axes blade
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#177 - 2016-10-05 14:48:47 UTC
Tialano Utrigas wrote:
My opinion is that a cyno shouldnt be able to be lit while the PANIC mode is active (be it the rorq or the miner). It WILL end up being used as a cyno ship in large fleet engagements which isnt it's intended use.

This does NOT mean that you cant cyno in back up. It just means that you need to wait for the PANIC mode to cycle first, then light. You can still use the industrial core to supply reps and get the self rep benefits. If there's enough on grid to alpha through your rorq then there are other issues tbh.

I think a slightly favourable outcome might be that a cyno disables and inhibits the PANIC mode on which ever ship lights. That still allows a proc to refit a cyno in PANIC mode but be vul when it lights.



I am concerned how you play the game if you think a 2.5 bil ship is going to be used just to light a fleet cyno. The cyno is a must to bring to support ships in time.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#178 - 2016-10-05 14:48:50 UTC
Tiberizzle wrote:
Everyone seems to be getting really excited about the theoretical yield of the rorqual but they're completely forgetting how bad drone mining mechanics are.

#1. There isn't even a hot key to make the mine, you have to use the context menu.

#2. The drone goes out, mines exactly 1 cycle and then returns with its mining amount.

The excavator drones exist on tranquility right now and they MWD at 100m/s. That's like a 10+ minute round trip to some of the ore site asteroids even with drone navigation comps and skills. The base speed needs to be an order of magnitude higher, or these things will spend over 90% of their time in transit and a sieged rorqual will be considerably worse than a barely trained barge in reality. The other option is that the Rorqual, a capital ship with **** for agility and warp speed that must additionally exit siege, rewarps for basically every individual asteroid it mines, and spends 90%+ of its time in warp... and is considerably worse than a barely trained barge in reality. Even if the drones are much quicker than the preliminary stats imply they will be, that theoretical yield will translate into a real yield of 25-50%, if that, and they'll be barely worth using as an upgrade over a Hulk.

With a theoretical yield of 18400m^3/minute and the speed as they exist on tranquility currently, for an asteroid 40,000m away (i.e. roughly the range something like half of the rocks in a colossal are from the warpin), it will take the drone 800 seconds (13.3 minutes) to travel for every 60 seconds of mining, meaning its real yield is 6.976% of the theoretical 18400 or 1283m^3 per minute. With drone navigation 5 and the MWD bonus from siege it will be 162.5m/s or 492s (8.2 minutes) of travel for 60 seconds of mining, or 10.8% efficiency / 1999m^3 per minute. That's like 20m isk/hr on spod, lol.

Put another way, a rookie ship with Miner II's jetcan mining (187m^3/min) would give an unsieged Rorqual (8.5% efficiency at 40km with 125m/s speed, of 3000m^3/min =257m^3/min) a good contest for most of an ore site after you factor in travel time if the base speed on tranquility is currently representative of final stats.


Tiberizzle, as usual, with the Real Dope on eve game mechanics. Listen to this man.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Galinius Valgani
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2016-10-05 14:52:01 UTC
Worst case solution is to allow Cynoing for only one combatant.
And forbidding it leads to boring gameplay so I tend to allow it.

Is there any way to make it good for defend mining ops and not screw op fleet ops.
Perhaps give it a Cyno spoolup penalty of 5 Minutes?
Will be in the timeframe of being invulnerable but 5 Minutes is a long time for the enemy to disengage or prepare fighting?
MuraSaki Siki
ChuangShi
Fraternity.
#180 - 2016-10-05 15:04:20 UTC
how to prevent rorqual go through C5/6 to highsec if it's mass is less than Freighters