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Capital defenses for freighter class vessels.

First post
Author
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#1 - 2016-10-04 19:57:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
There is a very neat module - "Capital Emergency Hull Energizer". I think it would be very nice if freighters and jump freighters (edit: and Bowheads) could be able to fit it, since they are, technically, capital ships. And thus should have capital level of defenses.

Or maybe even better - add this ability to freighters and jump freighters as hull property. Such module will give it time for the escort defenses to arrive (if there were any) and turn simple ganking into proper fight for the freighter. Of course if the freighter is tackled and there is no support arriving it will go down in flames anyway, and it will only delay it's fate, which doesn't affect the status quo in the space where fight is allowed.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#2 - 2016-10-05 08:34:57 UTC
Thread has been moved to Player Features and Ideas Discussion.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Black Pedro
Mine.
#3 - 2016-10-05 09:35:51 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
There is a very neat module - "Capital Emergency Hull Energizer". I think it would be very nice if freighters and jump freighters could be able to fit it, since they are, technically, capital ships. And thus should have capital level of defenses.

Or maybe even better - add this ability to freighters and jump freighters as hull property. Such module will give it time for the escort defenses to arrive (if there were any) and turn simple ganking into proper fight for the freighter. Of course if the freighter is tackled and there is no support arriving it will go down in flames anyway, and it will only delay it's fate, which doesn't affect the status quo in the space where fight is allowed.
Would activating turn the freighter suspect or turn off CONCORD? Or is your intention to make freighters straight-out invulnerable in highsec?

If you are just trying to make freighter invulnerable, can you explain how you think this makes the Eve a better game?
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#4 - 2016-10-05 10:52:35 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
There is a very neat module - "Capital Emergency Hull Energizer". I think it would be very nice if freighters and jump freighters could be able to fit it, since they are, technically, capital ships. And thus should have capital level of defenses.

Or maybe even better - add this ability to freighters and jump freighters as hull property. Such module will give it time for the escort defenses to arrive (if there were any) and turn simple ganking into proper fight for the freighter. Of course if the freighter is tackled and there is no support arriving it will go down in flames anyway, and it will only delay it's fate, which doesn't affect the status quo in the space where fight is allowed.
Would activating turn the freighter suspect or turn off CONCORD? Or is your intention to make freighters straight-out invulnerable in highsec?

If you are just trying to make freighter invulnerable, can you explain how you think this makes the Eve a better game?

The module gives temporary invulnerability, making it possible for the reinforcements to arrive. As I have written above, if the freighter is tackled and no reinforcement comes to save it - it dies.

No, of course it shouldn't turn on suspect, since it is just a defensive measure that manipulates the vessel itself and not the attackers, and has nothing to do with CONCORD.

CONCORD doesn't intervene in the wars in highsec. Though I was thinking mostly about low and null sec. Don't worry, if you tackled a war target freighter in high security space, that will only increase time you need to kill the freighter, but won't let it evade you (unless his friends will arrive). So from the side of attacker, you just cool your guns and keep point until invulnerability wears off.


And answering to your last question, it will make Eve a better game by escalation of conflict. It will give:
- more interactions and cooperations;
- more combat situations;
- and of course MORE WRECKS! Big smile

More ships will go down in flames, not just a freighter, but both ships from defending and attacking sides. And this is awesome! Twisted

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2016-10-05 11:01:04 UTC
If you already don't bother to take a single precaution to protect your freighter, would you even bother fitting this?

oh, yeah. Before I forget; all together now!

Just one more nerf and it'll be balanced!
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2016-10-05 11:07:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Diana Kim wrote:
The module gives temporary invulnerability, making it possible for the reinforcements to arrive. As I have written above, if the freighter is tackled and no reinforcement comes to save it - it dies.

How will it die?

If the freighter pilot activates the CEHE (crap acronym by the way), all the attackers die to CONCORD and no further assistance is required.

JFs in low and null might fall into your scenario, but this is just an 'I win with complete safety' button for highsec.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#7 - 2016-10-05 16:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
Danika Princip wrote:
If you already don't bother to take a single precaution to protect your freighter, would you even bother fitting this?

oh, yeah. Before I forget; all together now!

Just one more nerf and it'll be balanced!

I believe freighters should be not nerfed, but counterwise. For example, a nyx pilot can alpha a jump freighter, and I believe it ... well, shouldn't happen. I understand when a titan can one shot a capital (I've lost a carrier to that once), but a titan costs significantly more than a supercarrier. Freighters and jump freighters should need their EHP buffed significantly to survive at least alpha from a supercarrier, I think.

Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
The module gives temporary invulnerability, making it possible for the reinforcements to arrive. As I have written above, if the freighter is tackled and no reinforcement comes to save it - it dies.

How will it die?

If the freighter pilot activates the CEHE (crap acronym by the way), all the attackers die to CONCORD and no further assistance is required.

JFs in low and null might fall into your scenario, but this is just an 'I win with complete safety' button for highsec.

It will die if attackers can actually attack the freighter without breaking rules. If you can't tank sentries - you probably can't kill freighter anyway. And if you are attacked by CONCORD - this is not a real combat situation and I'd prefer to keep these scenarios out of the current discussion (while killing a ship this way is possible - it is a borderline cheating).

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2016-10-05 16:31:44 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
If you already don't bother to take a single precaution to protect your freighter, would you even bother fitting this?

oh, yeah. Before I forget; all together now!

Just one more nerf and it'll be balanced!

I believe freighters should be not nerfed, but counterwise. For example, a nyx pilot can alpha a jump freighter, and I believe it ... well, shouldn't happen. I understand when a titan can one shot a capital (I've lost a carrier to that once), but a titan costs significantly more than a supercarrier. Freighters and jump freighters should need their EHP buffed significantly to survive at least alpha from a supercarrier, I think.




That's the exact point I was making. You are asking for yet another nerf to ganking, rather than choosing to use any of the tools that currently exist.

Then again, since you're calling suicide ganking borderline cheating, we can't really expect anything else out of you.


And for referance: hull energisers give you a weapons timer. As in, no jumping for one minute. As in, pop one of these on the freighter you took unsupported and unscouted into lowsec then you have eighteen seconds to live and literally no chance to save yourself, as it doesn't stop anyone from simply tackling you.

You might prefer to keep suicide ganking out of the discussion, but there is no other application for this module on a freighter. It would be a highsec invulnerability button and nothing more.

So, again, please explain why you think ganking needs yet another nerf, and why you cannot use any of the existing tools to keep yourself alive instead.
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#9 - 2016-10-05 16:55:25 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:

And for referance: hull energisers give you a weapons timer. As in, no jumping for one minute. As in, pop one of these on the freighter you took unsupported and unscouted into lowsec then you have eighteen seconds to live and literally no chance to save yourself, as it doesn't stop anyone from simply tackling you.

Thus you use them only if there is help coming, and if they have a chance to keep yourself alive. Otherwise it just delays your death.

Danika Princip wrote:

You might prefer to keep suicide ganking out of the discussion ...

So, again, please explain why you think ganking needs yet another nerf, and why you cannot use any of the existing tools to keep yourself alive instead.

Suicide ganking is irrelevant. I repeat, keep it out of discussion. If you want to discuss suicide ganking so badly - make a separate discussion. Thanks in advance.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2016-10-05 17:11:18 UTC
No, suicide ganking is literally the only thing relevant to your suggestion.

Please explain how eighteen seconds is going to save you from a supercarrier in lowsec.
Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2016-10-05 23:30:56 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
[quote=Danika Princip]
Suicide ganking is irrelevant. I repeat, keep it out of discussion. If you want to discuss suicide ganking so badly - make a separate discussion. Thanks in advance.

It's absolutely relevant (and most certainly not "borderline cheating") and sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" does nothing to affect that fact. An emergency hull energizer fitted to a hisec freighter makes it for all practical purposes invulnerable. Full stop. I'm not sure if you're secretly campaigning for nerfing ganking or just clueless.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!

DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#12 - 2016-10-05 23:33:49 UTC  |  Edited by: DrysonBennington
Diana Kim wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
There is a very neat module - "Capital Emergency Hull Energizer". I think it would be very nice if freighters and jump freighters could be able to fit it, since they are, technically, capital ships. And thus should have capital level of defenses.

Or maybe even better - add this ability to freighters and jump freighters as hull property. Such module will give it time for the escort defenses to arrive (if there were any) and turn simple ganking into proper fight for the freighter. Of course if the freighter is tackled and there is no support arriving it will go down in flames anyway, and it will only delay it's fate, which doesn't affect the status quo in the space where fight is allowed.
Would activating turn the freighter suspect or turn off CONCORD? Or is your intention to make freighters straight-out invulnerable in highsec?

If you are just trying to make freighter invulnerable, can you explain how you think this makes the Eve a better game?

The module gives temporary invulnerability, making it possible for the reinforcements to arrive. As I have written above, if the freighter is tackled and no reinforcement comes to save it - it dies.

No, of course it shouldn't turn on suspect, since it is just a defensive measure that manipulates the vessel itself and not the attackers, and has nothing to do with CONCORD.

CONCORD doesn't intervene in the wars in highsec. Though I was thinking mostly about low and null sec. Don't worry, if you tackled a war target freighter in high security space, that will only increase time you need to kill the freighter, but won't let it evade you (unless his friends will arrive). So from the side of attacker, you just cool your guns and keep point until invulnerability wears off.


And answering to your last question, it will make Eve a better game by escalation of conflict. It will give:
- more interactions and cooperations;
- more combat situations;
- and of course MORE WRECKS! Big smile

More ships will go down in flames, not just a freighter, but both ships from defending and attacking sides. And this is awesome! Twisted



Give the freighter limited invulnerability just like the Rorqual. Not as powerful and wouldn't last as long but it would still allow the freighter to possibly survive the attack.

Maybe this would be a good time to introduce a Freighter Escort Ship that would project a field of invulnerability around the freighter. The field would cycle every 30 seconds and would remain off for one minute. During the thirty second cycle the freighter would have 99.9% resists for shield and armor.

Any mass ganking would require the escort ship to be taken out first.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#13 - 2016-10-06 15:15:32 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:


Give the freighter limited invulnerability just like the Rorqual. Not as powerful and wouldn't last as long but it would still allow the freighter to possibly survive the attack.


Rorqual lives in dangerous places where there is no CONCORD. The panic button is already probably way too overpowered, but at least is it reasonable to hold tackle on things outside of HiSec.

DrysonBennington wrote:

Maybe this would be a good time to introduce a Freighter Escort Ship that would project a field of invulnerability around the freighter. The field would cycle every 30 seconds and would remain off for one minute. During the thirty second cycle the freighter would have 99.9% resists for shield and armor.

Any mass ganking would require the escort ship to be taken out first.


Have you heard of a webbing alt? Apparently not. I hear catalysts have issues attacking you while in warp.

I still can't believe how often something like this comes up. I have probably lost more ships and ISK worth of assets than most people in this thread, and yet I have never lost one of my JFs or freighters. You have to be criminally negligent to lose a freighter in Hi Sec.....

A)Scout

B)Web

C)Bulkheads

D)Check zKill, etc.

E)Have an escape cyno for JFs, Better yet, two.

There are already so many tools to prevent freighter loss in HS. If you are still losing them, you are just plain not playing attention. When it does become truly risk free, it will no longer be a profitable profession - why pay for anything when its effortless to do with zero risk? You pay for the time and expertise, but the most of the suggestions, including this one, just make it way too easy to be bad at freighting, and still actually get the cargo from point A to point B.

As a freighter pilot, I wish CCP would make HiSec more dangerous, so that people who actually learn the rules can expect to make more ISK from their efforts and specialization. It is so tilted against the ganker at this point as to be comedic, but not as comedic as the calls for 'one more nerf'.



Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Piugattuk
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#14 - 2016-10-06 15:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
Danika Princip wrote:
If you already don't bother to take a single precaution to protect your freighter, would you even bother fitting this?

oh, yeah. Before I forget; all together now!

Just one more nerf and it'll be balanced!



I do agree that they should put some defensive mods on, however,

Not to rain on your parade but if ganking was even as remotely "difficult" as people try to make it out to be there wouldn't be all the gate campers in high sec, and especially you undock at Jita and day in and day out the same alt toons sit in strategic locations 23 hrs a day, when their sec status drops they buy tags and go right back (in fact I know they already have tags in station), to ganking.

People try to talk it up about how "difficult" it is, it isn't, how is buying tags to get sec status balanced, and goons should be authorities on "why" it not balanced because we know how much they love ganking, please at least use an alt to give some credibility because sorry its like a felon passing laws.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2016-10-06 16:18:31 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
If you already don't bother to take a single precaution to protect your freighter, would you even bother fitting this?

oh, yeah. Before I forget; all together now!

Just one more nerf and it'll be balanced!



I do agree that they should put some defensive mods on, however,

Not to rain on your parade but if ganking was even as remotely "difficult" as people try to make it out to be there wouldn't be all the gate campers in high sec, and especially you undock at Jita and day in and day out the same alt toons sit in strategic locations 23 hrs a day, when their sec status drops they buy tags and go right back (in fact I know they already have tags in station), to ganking.

People try to talk it up about how "difficult" it is, it isn't, how is buying tags to get sec status balanced, and goons should be authorities on "why" it not balanced because we know how much they love ganking, please at least use an alt to give some credibility because sorry its like a felon passing laws.


Please look one post above yours where a freighter pilot tells you, again, how to not die.

Then ask anyone from red frog or pushx how they have something like a 95% successful delivery rate.

Then ask anyone involved in ganking about security tags. (Hint: none of the people I've ever spoken to bother with them)

Then look at my killboard, I haven't ganked in years. Nice try though! My alliance tag is clearly relevant to the discussion!

If ganking is so easy, why do any freighters at all still get through? I'm not a freighter pilot myself, but I use freighter services extensively. Never seen a contract fail through either of those groups, or the gsf internal groups. How is this possible if ganking is so easy?
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#16 - 2016-10-06 16:29:33 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Diana Kim wrote:
There is a very neat module - "Capital Emergency Hull Energizer". I think it would be very nice if freighters and jump freighters (edit: and Bowheads) could be able to fit it, since they are, technically, capital ships.


What criteria are you using to label them technically capital ships, exactly?

I'd say they're capital-sized, non-capital ships. Certainly nobody would say that an oil tanker is a "capital ship".

About the only thing they have in common with "capital ships" is size and construction components, the latter being shared with the Orca and even Black Ops (capital jump drives required).

Skill-wise, they do not require the capital ships skill, and they're allowed in high sec. By most relevant criteria, they do not function as capital ships.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#17 - 2016-10-06 16:54:43 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
[quote=Diana Kim]Skill-wise, they do not require the capital ships skill, and they're allowed in high sec. By most relevant criteria, they do not function as capital ships.


They can have a doomsday device used on them. That be a capital.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#18 - 2016-10-06 18:22:16 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
[quote=Diana Kim]Skill-wise, they do not require the capital ships skill, and they're allowed in high sec. By most relevant criteria, they do not function as capital ships.


They can have a doomsday device used on them. That be a capital.



Doomsday description also specifies, "Capital-sized", which is also the literal name of the attribute flag, and why I already described them as capital-sized.

Since this is an argument that started with "Well technically," pedantry, I think there is technically a difference between a capital ship and a capital-sized ship. Is a cruise ship the size of an aircraft carrier a "capital ship" by virtue of size alone? Could you just strap some parts from a Nimitz onto one because they're both really big?

In Eve, freighters seem to be capital-sized ships mechanically distinguished from capital ships by the fact that they're allowed in high sec, don't require the capital ships skill to pilot, lack capital-class engineering and electronics suites (reflected in the PG and CPU output), etc.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#19 - 2016-10-06 20:33:33 UTC
The biggest difference between normal caps and freighters is that good capital pilots will lose caps, and good freighter pilots will never lose a freighter.

I know the first because I am a good capital pilot, and I know the latter because I am a good freighter pilot. Good capital pilots will put their ships into combat where the sheer damage being done ensures some loss. Good freighter pilots will never be red boxed.

Honestly they need to make freighters much easier to gank. It's simply too easy to prevent an accident.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2016-10-06 21:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dolorous Tremmens
Skill or lack thereof makes the difference for a freighter pilot. Planning, timinjg, scouting, research, friends/alts will see you through. I have seen a jump freighter land on enemy camped gates, cynos and beacons and moonwalk out. In one case to land on a bubbled station in the middle of a 700 person battle packed with combat ships that made the difference.

Invulnerability is not needed, and if it were made possible I would expect a huge bitchslap of a nerf to cargo cap, enough to make it foolish to use. CCP is known to take away more than they give when addressing large capacity hauling hauling ships.

Get some Eve. Make it yours.

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