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[November] Rorqual Changes

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Frauleinwunder
New Edens Moon Preservation Society
Goonswarm Federation
#101 - 2016-10-04 21:46:34 UTC
The biggest question i have is can the mine Mexocit, and will they be able to hold non-indy ships.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#102 - 2016-10-04 21:47:24 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
I'd really suggest CCP runs the numbers on a scenario where someone multiboxes 10 Rorquals

10? are you kidding me? I've never seen a proper miner with less then 20 accounts. Sometimes even 50.



How many multiboxers do you think have 20 or 50 accounts skilled to sit in a Rorqual?

How many have the drone skills ready?

How many have all the other skills involved ready?

Someone has posted that it will take 18 days to sit in the new Porpoise...That's all you'll do as well, you won't have skills to do anything else with it.


There are people with way too much money and time in this game. WIth injectors you can sit in a Rorqual on day 1, so that's not the issue. There are very much people out there who will inject 20 Rorq accounts. It's not a matter of if.

Multiboxing on a scale like this (10 accounts or more) has always been a ****** thing in EVE. People like that strip entire high-sec systems on a daily basis, and null is no stranger to it either. With the power the Rorq is getting now in combination with super secure backwater null systems this has the potential to seriously screw up the market.

The question is, of course, is this intentional? With the Alpha's incoming it would certainly lower the barrier of entry for everyone if all items in space become 10 to 20% cheaper across the board. But as it stands I'm worried about what this is going to do to the economy.



Good point mate.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Frauleinwunder
New Edens Moon Preservation Society
Goonswarm Federation
#103 - 2016-10-04 21:47:57 UTC
DCLi Ext wrote:
I think the problem that still has to be addressed is the OP of interceptor. Speed tank to drones and interdiction nullification.

To get the same bonuses you now need to commit the Rorqual to a fixed position for 5 minutes intervals over hours at a time. Other ships you can align out, but this negated by the keeping mining ships in range and having to siege.

This basically painting a big target on it. Risk versus reward.

You cannot defend a warp in from an interceptor.

There has been suggestions about countering (i.e. anti interdiciton nullified field, propulsion jam field disable all prop mods within 100 km etc).

Some of these would create interesting combat uses for rorquals.

I believe the best interim solution is to make consistent with carrier stream.

Porpoise = Myrm
Orca = Carrier
Rorqual = Super Carrier (has lots of special modules as well)

Give the rorqual the +5 warp strength that a super carrier has.

A single interceptor cannot tackle a super carrier unless faction fit. Will need multiple interceptors to hold it there. Instead of single speed tank interceptor immune to drones (faster) while the DPS fleet sits at range.

The industrial core modules need some AOE effect to be locked for 5minutes, given that it could be running for hours. Burns out or offline propulsion mods on interdiction nullified ships (this means interceptor have to choose between running props and out speed drones or be attacked by drones).

There is potential for game meta using this instead of I win interceptor for big kills. This can change the risk reward potential to make using in the belts.

The other thing that was not clear can industrial core run within a pos shield for compression?

Hope this provokes thought.


I like the idea of having some warp core strength.
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#104 - 2016-10-04 21:50:54 UTC
Am Staff wrote:
you should not be allowed to cyno while under the P.AN.I.C Function as this will just aid in the cyno been put up and a hostile cap fleet being able to jump in and defend the Rorq that is being attacked and there is nothing you can do about it.

So basically in 2 words

"It's Broken"

Am Staff


It's not broken, it's the only way that anyone would risk it on grid in the space its designed for. And it has to be on grid to do its job after these changes.

Your only other alternative is asking combat pilots to literally just sit around and babysit a mining op, which is boring, and nobody is going to bother doing, thus nobody is going to bother fielding the rorq.

If, however, you can panic invuln a whole mining fleet and light a cyno, it means your miners, and JUST your miners can operate a mining fleet with a reasonable expectation of surviving a hotdrop as long as there's backup reasonably close by. That means they can be ratting, doing a plex, murdering non-blues that happen to be nearby, or whatever they want until they're needed so they don't have to just sit there and suffer all of the boredom of mining without any of the payoffs.

Without the ability to cyno, you're basically just handing the rorq to the attackers, who are already in position, have already jumped their ships in, and already have gate/station/system locked down to prevent your defenders from actually forming up to defend.

Being able to cyno in a defense fleet is actually a good thing. It means people may be willing to risk an expensive ship in order to get big yields, and creates content by presenting a juicy target to be attacked and defended, which in turn creates content for everyone else.
Eternity Mistseeker
Renegades of Eve
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#105 - 2016-10-04 22:09:20 UTC
Of course people are going to multibox these, why would they bother with an exhumer?

As with exhumers they'll just eat the losses.

Rorquals (and orcas) insure a lot better then exhumers...
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#106 - 2016-10-04 22:16:33 UTC
CCP please bring back spudzilla. The Rorqual needs a true nemesis.
Joten Koldani
Independence Construction
#107 - 2016-10-04 22:17:47 UTC
But the *real* question is:

Can it mine gas?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#108 - 2016-10-04 22:20:52 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Ncc 1709 wrote:
20 rorqs with 2000 dps each... anything that drops is it is going to hurt hard


With these kinds of targets you enter into the realm of capital and even super drops. Super carriers and Titans supported by FAX Machines really aren't going to hurt against 40k DPS.

Well, assuming the system isn't cyno jammed. Otherwise you're gating it in.
Keebler Wizard
Skew The Suits
#109 - 2016-10-04 22:21:27 UTC
Changes look pretty solid.
+Should allow cynos during PANIC. Its about time the miners fought back.
+Should allow ALL ships to be stored in rorq maint bay. Doesn't seem overpowered, and would again allow for more active defense and gameplay.
Chalithra Lathar
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#110 - 2016-10-04 22:22:44 UTC
DCLi Ext wrote:
I think the problem that still has to be addressed is the OP of interceptor. Speed tank to drones and interdiction nullification.

To get the same bonuses you now need to commit the Rorqual to a fixed position for 5 minutes intervals over hours at a time. Other ships you can align out, but this negated by the keeping mining ships in range and having to siege.

This basically painting a big target on it. Risk versus reward.

You cannot defend a warp in from an interceptor.

There has been suggestions about countering (i.e. anti interdiciton nullified field, propulsion jam field disable all prop mods within 100 km etc).

Some of these would create interesting combat uses for rorquals.

I believe the best interim solution is to make consistent with carrier stream.

Porpoise = Myrm
Orca = Carrier
Rorqual = Super Carrier (has lots of special modules as well)

Give the rorqual the +5 warp strength that a super carrier has.

A single interceptor cannot tackle a super carrier unless faction fit. Will need multiple interceptors to hold it there. Instead of single speed tank interceptor immune to drones (faster) while the DPS fleet sits at range.

The industrial core modules need some AOE effect to be locked for 5minutes, given that it could be running for hours. Burns out or offline propulsion mods on interdiction nullified ships (this means interceptor have to choose between running props and out speed drones or be attacked by drones).

There is potential for game meta using this instead of I win interceptor for big kills. This can change the risk reward potential to make using in the belts.

The other thing that was not clear can industrial core run within a pos shield for compression?

Hope this provokes thought.


Fit a capital neut
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#111 - 2016-10-04 22:35:05 UTC
Rowells wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
Ncc 1709 wrote:
20 rorqs with 2000 dps each... anything that drops is it is going to hurt hard


With these kinds of targets you enter into the realm of capital and even super drops. Super carriers and Titans supported by FAX Machines really aren't going to hurt against 40k DPS.

Well, assuming the system isn't cyno jammed. Otherwise you're gating it in.


Rorq mining in a cyno jammed system... I'm sure special doctrines will pop up that can take these things out, but as far as my experience goes I'd say a fleet of 20 Rorqs is impossible to kill under those circumstances. An average subcap fleet is going to melt to the combined fire power of 20 Rorqs, let alone reinforcements.

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Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#112 - 2016-10-04 22:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
No cynos on ships hit by the panic button please.

Reasoning: 0 counter-play.

Very impressed with these changes otherwise. Bravo.
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#113 - 2016-10-04 22:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
Here's an idea to add counterplay to the PANIC button should you guys really insist on it:

Once the panic button is hit, ships cannot light a cyno for X amount of time (2-2.5 minutes?), allowing the attackers time to deploy a mobile cyno inhibitor (assuming they brought one).

That gives counterplay and allows the mining fleet the ability to cyno in friendlies after the time expires if a inhibitor wasn't deployed in time.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#114 - 2016-10-04 22:55:26 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
Here's an idea to add counterplay to the PANIC button should you guys really insist on it:

Once the panic button is hit, ships cannot light a cyno for X amount of time (2-2.5 minutes?), allowing the attackers time to deploy a mobile cyno inhibitor (assuming they brought one).

That gives counterplay and allows the mining fleet the ability to cyno in friendlies after the time expires if a inhibitor wasn't deployed in time.


For now I agree with the devs, let's just see how this plays out first before imposing all kinds of restrictions. But it does need to be closely monitored for the first few weeks and quickly jumped on if need be.

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Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#115 - 2016-10-04 22:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
TigerXtrm wrote:

For now I agree with the devs, let's just see how this plays out first before imposing all kinds of restrictions. But it does need to be closely monitored for the first few weeks and quickly jumped on if need be.


Players weren't able to light a cyno inside a POS shield, and I don't think they can do it while tethered either (without losing the tether and becoming vulnerable). Why should they be able to do it while invulnerable with the panic module?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#116 - 2016-10-04 23:21:03 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:


Players weren't able to light a cyno inside a POS shield, and I don't think they can do it while tethered either (without losing the tether and becoming vulnerable). Why should they be able to do it while invulnerable with the panic module?

Because otherwise the defence fleet can't arrive in reasonable time. And all the Panic button does is delay you dying horribly. At which point no-one uses Rorqs. So if you want to be able to kill them then they need to be able to cyno things in. You can always bring a cyno inhibitor and drop it as soon as you land on grid.....
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#117 - 2016-10-04 23:28:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Because otherwise the defence fleet can't arrive in reasonable time..


They can light the cyno before the panic button is pressed and not get the effect, which (potentially) sacrifices the one cyno ship to save the fleet. Or if they are already hit by the panic button and are invulnerable, they can light the cyno and lose that invulnerability, which is consistent with how cyno rules work across the game.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to cyno a fleet in. I'm saying the cyno ship shouldn't be able to do it while enjoying invulnerability.

Is there a reason to break the rules in this case? And make cyno ships invulnerable? I don't see it because the rest of the fleet is still invulnerable. If you save a Rorq and 4 mining barges at the expense of losing a single mining barge who cyno'd in the fleet, that's still a gigantic benefit.
Dreamer Targaryen
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#118 - 2016-10-04 23:43:05 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Jump drive fuel consumption: 2000 Oxygen

Since the Rorqual currently uses Oxygen Isotopes, is it safe to assume, that it will stay that way or will it actually switch to Oxygen (from Planetary Interaction)?
Swoop McFly
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2016-10-04 23:47:55 UTC
So it mines as much as 8 Hulks, is the perfect mining booster, a jump freighter, a carrier and a FAX combined, with double the jumprange, 90% fatigue reduction and a 7 minute invulnerability mode.

Is it just me or does this sound maybe a little bit too good?

It can do pretty much everything. The only thing missing is an exploration bonus.
Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises
The Craftsmen
#120 - 2016-10-04 23:49:26 UTC
Did you consider letting the Rorqual use every Isotope for jumping ? Kinda sucks that the proud queen of mining is tied too having ships bringing Oxygen Isotopes. Why did ORE choose this jump drive instead of inventing a new one capable of using all Isotopes ? Or did they hit legacy code when they did the research