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[November] Rorqual Changes

First post First post First post
Author
Aldran Gentlharp
Unidentified Murderers and Young Hack Offenders
#61 - 2016-10-04 19:32:27 UTC
There is another Thing that bothers me. Get the Excavation drones a rework to? right now they need a bandwith of 200 so no ship can launch them. And after the Patch the Rorqual is stil not able to launch them.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#62 - 2016-10-04 19:37:31 UTC
This new module requires a new rank 8 skill called Invulnerability Core Operation that requires Tactical Shield Manipulation level 5 and Capital Shield Emission Systems level 3 to train.

CCP, Please look at Tactical Shield Manipulation. Right now training this skill actually hurts any passive shield tanking because the closer you are to 30% shield the higher your regeneration rate.
So by making TSM V a requirement you are asking people to train a NEGATIVE skill. The fact it's a negative skill to train in the first place is silly, since to maximise your passive shield tank you actually want it to start to leak as close to peak regen as possible, so any skill levels in this skill past 1 actually hurt your tank (you just use faction mods at 1 rather than T2).
Grace Tolentino
You Do Note
#63 - 2016-10-04 19:37:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Grace Tolentino
Since compression arrays are common together with citadels and the new industrial structures, would it be unreasonable to let the rorq compress ore without activating the core ?

The reality is no one will field a rorq in hostile space anyway so a compression option will probably be available in the home space where you are mining, and thus, compression will be available to your fleet even without using the core. why not just let the rorq compress right on the spot ? This would certainly help the 1st pillar of the mining foreman.
Kaaeliaa
Tyrannos Sunset
#64 - 2016-10-04 19:43:13 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
This new module requires a new rank 8 skill called Invulnerability Core Operation that requires Tactical Shield Manipulation level 5 and Capital Shield Emission Systems level 3 to train.

CCP, Please look at Tactical Shield Manipulation. Right now training this skill actually hurts any passive shield tanking because the closer you are to 30% shield the higher your regeneration rate.
So by making TSM V a requirement you are asking people to train a NEGATIVE skill. The fact it's a negative skill to train in the first place is silly, since to maximise your passive shield tank you actually want it to start to leak as close to peak regen as possible, so any skill levels in this skill past 1 actually hurt your tank (you just use faction mods at 1 rather than T2).


100% agreed. TSM is ludicrously counter-intuitive to shield mechanics and could use a look.

Not that I think too many people will be rushing to fly Rorquals and using the PANIC module, but I suppose this is a good time to bring that skill to attention.

"Do not lift the veil. Do not show the door. Do not split the dream."

Aliana Heartborne
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2016-10-04 19:44:26 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Aliana Heartborne wrote:
...


There was a lot of information in the devblog but if you are looking at newer players, the Porpoise does appear to fill that role with a lower skill requirement than an Orca for high-sec boosting. CCP is handing you a progression by which players can train and provide a valuable skill while participating in the mining fleet. I can appreciate the position as organizier looking to provide a service to new players but a better service is being provided by CCP by giving players in the boosting role an active role thereby filling it with an active player instead of a passive organizer.


18 days just to get into the porpoise is a pretty big investment for newer players that might not even know if mining is for them in the long run. Its btw is the same time as an Orca, im a bit sleepy but the way i see it porpoise is only there if you dont want so risk the iskies the orca costs
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#66 - 2016-10-04 19:50:15 UTC
Vivace Naaris wrote:
How does CCP intend to balance large fleets of Rorquals such that attackers don't land to a gang of Rorquals that can essentially perma-P.A.N.I.C. each other?

It sounds a little over the top in my train of thought but... well miners will be miners.

It's already blocked. PANIC will only do 'yourself plus subcaps/orca's'. Not other Rorquals in fleet.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#67 - 2016-10-04 19:54:47 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
This new module requires a new rank 8 skill called Invulnerability Core Operation that requires Tactical Shield Manipulation level 5 and Capital Shield Emission Systems level 3 to train.

CCP, Please look at Tactical Shield Manipulation. Right now training this skill actually hurts any passive shield tanking because the closer you are to 30% shield the higher your regeneration rate.
So by making TSM V a requirement you are asking people to train a NEGATIVE skill. The fact it's a negative skill to train in the first place is silly, since to maximise your passive shield tank you actually want it to start to leak as close to peak regen as possible, so any skill levels in this skill past 1 actually hurt your tank (you just use faction mods at 1 rather than T2).

I have no idea what you're talking about. But you have skill extractors.
Khaelian Osiris
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2016-10-04 19:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Khaelian Osiris
IMO the PANIC module should disable target locks and should disable impacted ships' fleet hangars from being accessed.

Disable Hangar
I'm envisioning the Battle Rorqual becoming much more common after this. Imagine a Rorqual and a number of DSTs loaded up with Cap Booster 3200 charges, nanite paste, ammo, whatever. The Rorqual blows the PANIC module and the DSTs are now free to offload their cargo into triage, machs, etc.

Disable Lock
Secondly, the Rorqual can now start repairing friendly ships while invulnerable. This makes it an all-too-effective replacement of Triage.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#69 - 2016-10-04 19:56:28 UTC
As this is being promoted as the best mining ship ever (quite rightly btw)

Here's the 3b isk question......

Will the Excavator Drones be able to mine Mercoxit?

Or would we have to fit a Deep Core Strip Miner?

For the best mining ship ever not to be able to use the drones for the best ore makes no sense.

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Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#70 - 2016-10-04 20:00:13 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
As this is being promoted as the best mining ship ever (quite rightly btw)

Here's the 3b isk question......

Will the Excavator Drones be able to mine Mercoxit?

Or would we have to fit a Deep Core Strip Miner?

For the best mining ship ever not to be able to use the drones for the best ore makes no sense.



In case it can't: That's what the poor guys who can't afford a Rorqual in their Skiffs are for.
Borat Guereen
ARRAKIS Ltd.
#71 - 2016-10-04 20:01:58 UTC
Zira Happy Ape wrote:
nobody will have time to form up and jump several gates in such a short time)...


You are right for the large alliances that waste space by not really using it and living in it. For those living in it, 5mn to 7mn is plenty enough to scramble a defense force.

Candidate for CSM XII

Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#72 - 2016-10-04 20:03:02 UTC
Grace Tolentino wrote:
Since compression arrays are common together with citadels and the new industrial structures, would it be unreasonable to let the rorq compress ore without activating the core ?

The reality is no one will field a rorq in hostile space anyway so a compression option will probably be available in the home space where you are mining, and thus, compression will be available to your fleet even without using the core. why not just let the rorq compress right on the spot ? This would certainly help the 1st pillar of the mining foreman.

This makes sense. Alternatively, they can nerf stationary compression equipment. Tbh, I prefer the later.
Khaelian Osiris
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2016-10-04 20:03:49 UTC
I feel like CCP is honestly going a bit overboard on the mining power of this ship. If they are going to be able to eat ore at such a ridiculous rate, can we at least make it not be passive?

Make the Excavator drones drop their ore in cans. Now the Rorqual pilot will have to actively tractor in the cans for 5 different drones at the same time. If you'd rather save the slots for something other than a tractor beam, you could always park a Noctis next to the Rorqual. They've been needing a decent role lately.
Kreimhild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2016-10-04 20:03:52 UTC
This does nothing but boost the corporations that have the resources and pilots to protect or replace such an asset. I understand that you want to add more risk vs. reward to the mining experience but that's not what is going to happen. This will chase even more mid-range and small corporations back into high sec space. This helps the already annoying one person locust fleets of 16 alts blobbed around a freighter in high sec space. Now for a corporation to even get a foothold in low sec they are going to need billions of ISK to replace the ships they know they are going to lose. So the orca will become a high sec dream ship for locust fleets and the rorqual will be a distant dream for smaller corporations.
In all fairness this should come with a refund of skill points. I've invested millions of skill points and several months into something that has now become virtually useless to me. I now won't be able to use a Rorqual because neither I nor my corp can afford to replace it every few days. With these changes I will probably end up dropping at least 2 of my accounts and probably more when it's all said and done. For those saying that I was just afk on my boost pilot couldn't be more wrong. I do box my accounts but they all have separate inputs from me and are all in full view at all times. I almost feel like I deserve a refund of my subscription fees and no, I don't generally plex my accounts. I pay for them.
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#75 - 2016-10-04 20:04:31 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
I have no idea what you're talking about.


The skill Tactical Shield Manipulation is actually detrimental. Training it is bad. It makes your ship / fit weaker.

Skia Aumer wrote:
But you have skill extractors.


Having TSM V is a pre-requisite for using the Rorqual's Industrial Core (by the way, the Rorqual is a shield-tanked ship). You cannot both extract this skill - to avoids its negative effects - and use a Rorqual.
Kaaeliaa
Tyrannos Sunset
#76 - 2016-10-04 20:12:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaaeliaa
Skia Aumer wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
This new module requires a new rank 8 skill called Invulnerability Core Operation that requires Tactical Shield Manipulation level 5 and Capital Shield Emission Systems level 3 to train.

CCP, Please look at Tactical Shield Manipulation. Right now training this skill actually hurts any passive shield tanking because the closer you are to 30% shield the higher your regeneration rate.
So by making TSM V a requirement you are asking people to train a NEGATIVE skill. The fact it's a negative skill to train in the first place is silly, since to maximise your passive shield tank you actually want it to start to leak as close to peak regen as possible, so any skill levels in this skill past 1 actually hurt your tank (you just use faction mods at 1 rather than T2).

I have no idea what you're talking about. But you have skill extractors.


Peak shield recharge is at ~30%, it falls off progressively underneath that. In a lot of cases, especially in passive shield fits or in capitals, bleeding the damage to armor is actually a better option. TSM preventing the bleed hurts you in a lot more situations than it helps you.

The only reason it's taken to 4 is for access to T2 hardeners/AIFs, because the skill levels themselves are a net negative. This is counter-intuitive to what you'd think, and that's why TSM is bad.

Edit: Meant to type armor instead of hull, point still the same, skill is bad.

"Do not lift the veil. Do not show the door. Do not split the dream."

Am Staff
Super Villains
Northern Coalition.
#77 - 2016-10-04 20:14:43 UTC
you should not be allowed to cyno while under the P.AN.I.C Function as this will just aid in the cyno been put up and a hostile cap fleet being able to jump in and defend the Rorq that is being attacked and there is nothing you can do about it.

So basically in 2 words

"It's Broken"

Am Staff
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2016-10-04 20:19:01 UTC
Jezus multiboxing Rorquals are going to be a thing now. I'm already seeing orders from people ordering 7 of these things at a time. I love all these changes when they're applied to single characters, but I'd really suggest CCP runs the numbers on a scenario where someone multiboxes 10 Rorquals with T2 industrial cores and strips and entire system in no-time. This might be a bit too much.

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Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#79 - 2016-10-04 20:21:41 UTC
Kaaeliaa wrote:
Peak shield recharge is at ~30-33%, it falls off progressively underneath that. In a lot of cases, especially in passive shield fits, bleeding the damage to hull is actually a better option. TSM preventing the bleed hurts you in a lot more situations than it helps you.

Ah, this. Afaik, the bleed is so miserable that you dont feel it anyway.

probag Bear wrote:
Having TSM V is a pre-requisite for using the Rorqual's Industrial Core (by the way, the Rorqual is a shield-tanked ship). You cannot both extract this skill - to avoids its negative effects - and use a Rorqual.

You only need the skill itself, not prereqs.
Quriel Arjar
Doomheim
#80 - 2016-10-04 20:24:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Quriel Arjar
I am worried that with these changes Orca will outclass all exhumers as a high-sec mining ship. Sure, it will most probably have smaller yield than Mackinaw and Skiff, but it won't have to leave the belt for an hour, if not more, because of truly massive ore hold (Mackinaw is already crying in the corner) and won't care about gankers that much, because of giant tank (Skiff is getting mad). For a price of lesser yield, it's a little too good.

In case of Rorqual this is non-issue, because of it not being able to go to high-sec (so, more importantly, Concord home).

EDIT: Posted in wrong thread Big smile