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[November] Orca Changes

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Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#41 - 2016-10-04 21:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
Goati wrote:
Who else thinks the Orca is way too powerful now? The idea that it can mine at the rate of an exhumer, with a 187.5k m3 ore hold, with huge EHP, it's just ridiulous. Orca is meant to be a support ship, not an exhumer equivalent mining vessel on steroids.

Why even use Exhumer any more? Orca costs 2-3 times more sure, but you only pay that once. You can be sure it won't be ganked if you know how to fit it, especially with the the new EHP.

I think CCP have gotten carried away and made it way too powerful. If you must keep the mining abilities, it should be able to mine at max about 50% the rate of an exhumer - that way it's more worth to mine in Exhumers and we don't get the ridiculous situation of people choosing Orcas over Exhumers as primary miners as their yields are the same.

Seriously, with Exhumer level yield and 187k m3 ore hold, who wouldn't spend 2-3 times more and just mine in an orca instead of an Exhumer? Fit right It will be near ungankable and is an afk miners dream, crazy. It is beyond a joke.

The solution; make the Orca max personal mining ability be at about 50% of that of an Exhumer. Still worth an additional mining for the fleet without taking the role as best/primary miner away from Exhumers.

That math only applies to the new Drones only Available to the Rorqual, sure the Orca gets a nice bump, but you won't see fleets of Orcas in Highsec...

Quote:
The Mining Drone II will remain largely unchanged in November, as it represents the current baseline for drone mining.


So a Maxed out Orca Pilot drones equals 1.5x the yield of the drones today...
Ripard Teg
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#42 - 2016-10-04 21:33:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ripard Teg
Please increase the Scan Resolution on the Orca.

Put it this way: can a high-sec Orca even lock one of the Catalysts ganking it before (a) the Orca dies, or (b) all of the Catalysts die? Can the same Orca lock and kill an untanked gank Talos before CONCORD does the job for him?

DPS is useless if you can't apply it.

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
KrazyTaco
Sea World
#43 - 2016-10-04 21:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: KrazyTaco
Mai Khumm wrote:
Goati wrote:
Who else thinks the Orca is way too powerful now? The idea that it can mine at the rate of an exhumer, with a 187.5k m3 ore hold, with huge EHP, it's just ridiulous. Orca is meant to be a support ship, not an exhumer equivalent mining vessel on steroids.

Why even use Exhumer any more? Orca costs 2-3 times more sure, but you only pay that once. You can be sure it won't be ganked if you know how to fit it, especially with the the new EHP.

I think CCP have gotten carried away and made it way too powerful. If you must keep the mining abilities, it should be able to mine at max about 50% the rate of an exhumer - that way it's more worth to mine in Exhumers and we don't get the ridiculous situation of people choosing Orcas over Exhumers as primary miners as their yields are the same.

Seriously, with Exhumer level yield and 187k m3 ore hold, who wouldn't spend 2-3 times more and just mine in an orca instead of an Exhumer? Fit right It will be near ungankable and is an afk miners dream, crazy. It is beyond a joke.

The solution; make the Orca max personal mining ability be at about 50% of that of an Exhumer. Still worth an additional mining for the fleet without taking the role as best/primary miner away from Exhumers.

That math only applies to the new Drones only Available to the Rorqual, sure the Orca gets a nice bump, but you won't see fleets of Orcas in Highsec...

Quote:
The Mining Drone II will remain largely unchanged in November, as it represents the current baseline for drone mining.


So a Maxed out Orca Pilot drones equals 1.5x the yield of the drones today...


At the end of Fozzie's post he mentioned
Quote:
Max Yield: ~1400m3 per minute + drone travel time


A yield fit mackinaw using T2 strip miners and no mining drones pulls in 1,308m3/ minute. The drone travel time is a penalty but not really, the orca just sits on the rock it's mining and it's virtually no delay. This puts the Orca at least at the level of a yield fit mackinaw if not slightly surpassing it.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#44 - 2016-10-04 21:36:41 UTC
Goati wrote:
Who else thinks the Orca is way too powerful now? The idea that it can mine at the rate of an exhumer, with a 187.5k m3 ore hold, with huge EHP, it's just ridiulous. Orca is meant to be a support ship, not an exhumer equivalent mining vessel on steroids.


My Skiffs can mine at ~1280m3/minute, not including mining drone yield or Orca boosts. The theoretical yield of 1400m3/min for the Orca includes a 150% bonus to mining drone yield, meaning an expected base yield of drone + skills being around 560m3/min (not including travel time). This means that my Skiffs will be pulling in around 1840m3/min not including drone travel time.

Assume for a moment that drone travel time reduces mining drone yield by about half (velocity is about 400m/s plus skills and modules, range to asteroid is around 15-25km, so travel time is around 30s each way, cycle time is around 60s, so round trip time is 60s travel, 60s mining, for a 50% duty cycle): this means drone yield for the Orca drops to about 700m3/min, while total yield for the Skiff drops to about 1560m3/min.

Do you still think the Orca is an overpowered Mackinaw replacement that needs to be nerfed?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
RainReaper
RRN Industries
#45 - 2016-10-04 21:42:57 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Goati wrote:
Who else thinks the Orca is way too powerful now? The idea that it can mine at the rate of an exhumer, with a 187.5k m3 ore hold, with huge EHP, it's just ridiulous. Orca is meant to be a support ship, not an exhumer equivalent mining vessel on steroids.


My Skiffs can mine at ~1280m3/minute, not including mining drone yield or Orca boosts. The theoretical yield of 1400m3/min for the Orca includes a 150% bonus to mining drone yield, meaning an expected base yield of drone + skills being around 560m3/min (not including travel time). This means that my Skiffs will be pulling in around 1840m3/min not including drone travel time.

Assume for a moment that drone travel time reduces mining drone yield by about half (velocity is about 400m/s plus skills and modules, range to asteroid is around 15-25km, so travel time is around 30s each way, cycle time is around 60s, so round trip time is 60s travel, 60s mining, for a 50% duty cycle): this means drone yield for the Orca drops to about 700m3/min, while total yield for the Skiff drops to about 1560m3/min.

Do you still think the Orca is an overpowered Mackinaw replacement that needs to be nerfed?


lol a easy fix to increase yield is to have the orca follow the edge of the belt. mining the roids as it slowly goes forem one side to the other.

I LOVE THE NEW ORCA!
Ya'akov Hebrew
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2016-10-04 21:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ya'akov Hebrew
is there a reduction in the cargo hold of the Orca? you are listing it as 30,000m3 when its current size is 96,913 m3. Is there a change ? Disregard, i just looked at the specs on Wiki and forgot to take in my training and all, 30,000 is the same and good.
Jeanne Deveroux
Society Of Mutual Adoration
#47 - 2016-10-04 21:50:19 UTC
Goati wrote:
Who else thinks the Orca is way too powerful now? The idea that it can mine at the rate of an exhumer, with a 187.5k m3 ore hold, with huge EHP, it's just ridiulous. Orca is meant to be a support ship, not an exhumer equivalent mining vessel on steroids.

Why even use Exhumer any more? Orca costs 2-3 times more sure, but you only pay that once. You can be sure it won't be ganked if you know how to fit it, especially with the the new EHP.

I think CCP have gotten carried away and made it way too powerful. If you must keep the mining abilities, it should be able to mine at max about 50% the rate of an exhumer - that way it's more worth to mine in Exhumers and we don't get the ridiculous situation of people choosing Orcas over Exhumers as primary miners as their yields are the same.

Seriously, with Exhumer level yield and 187k m3 ore hold, who wouldn't spend 2-3 times more and just mine in an orca instead of an Exhumer? Fit right It will be near ungankable and is an afk miners dream, crazy. It is beyond a joke.

The solution; make the Orca max personal mining ability be at about 50% of that of an Exhumer. Still worth an additional mining for the fleet without taking the role as best/primary miner away from Exhumers.



This.

Just rename it to Ultimate AFK Miner and remove all other mining ships from the game.
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#48 - 2016-10-04 21:54:07 UTC
Will the Orca inherit the ship maintenance bay restrictions of the Rorqal, being able to only store barges, exhumers and industrial ships? Currently it can carry anything.
Gibbel Charante
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2016-10-04 22:03:28 UTC
Personally I'm liking the new changes. It's nice that Orca Pilots now get the opportunity to actually do something while mining.
Especially considering Orca pilots cannot just sit AFK somewhere in space because now they have to ' actively' boost. These changes give the Orca Pilots something to do.
XxUltradmbxX
Space Colony
Synergy of Steel
#50 - 2016-10-04 22:17:36 UTC
is the max yield with rigs and augmeted drones or all5 with t2 drones?
Jin Kugu
Make Luv Not War
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2016-10-04 22:32:26 UTC
Another buff to freighter ehp o_O

I guess you really needed to go back and buff those freighters that could already fit a DC2.

The bowhead does not need more EHP. If they get caught outside highsec a little extra ehp won't help them. In highsec max tank bowheads almost never die. Go look at the killboards if you don't believe me.

The agility buff is weird too because everyone and their dog uses a mwd.

The orca is getting way too many buffs at once. Specific bays (ore, pi, whatever) have been used excessively already and mostly just remove any need to make choices when fitting a ship. This means people will be free to just fit max tank while at the same time getting more base ehp.

I realise the orca is getting more shield to make it survivable outside high sec. I think it's pretty obvious that if you want to keep the orca balanced in high sec it needs to lose way more hull to balance out the shield gain.

~just one more nerf~
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#52 - 2016-10-04 22:34:33 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
Please increase the Scan Resolution on the Orca.

Put it this way: can a high-sec Orca even lock one of the Catalysts ganking it before (a) the Orca dies, or (b) all of the Catalysts die? Can the same Orca lock and kill an untanked gank Talos before CONCORD does the job for him?

DPS is useless if you can't apply it.


Guard your fleet with a fast-locking destroyer or interceptor, with sentry drones deployed by the mining fleet assisted to the guard. At a pinch you can use a scan-resolution-boosted hauler for the same job.

A lateral option is to have two Orcas, each providing one command burst and permanent remote reps to the rest of the fleet.

Fit for agility rather than tank, and warp out before hostiles land on grid.

Fit warp core stabilisers and warp out before getting blown up.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Jin Kugu
Make Luv Not War
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2016-10-04 22:36:58 UTC
Goati wrote:
Who else thinks the Orca is way too powerful now? The idea that it can mine at the rate of an exhumer, with a 187.5k m3 ore hold, with huge EHP, it's just ridiulous. Orca is meant to be a support ship, not an exhumer equivalent mining vessel on steroids.

Why even use Exhumer any more? Orca costs 2-3 times more sure, but you only pay that once. You can be sure it won't be ganked if you know how to fit it, especially with the the new EHP.

I think CCP have gotten carried away and made it way too powerful. If you must keep the mining abilities, it should be able to mine at max about 50% the rate of an exhumer - that way it's more worth to mine in Exhumers and we don't get the ridiculous situation of people choosing Orcas over Exhumers as primary miners as their yields are the same.

Seriously, with Exhumer level yield and 187k m3 ore hold, who wouldn't spend 2-3 times more and just mine in an orca instead of an Exhumer? Fit right It will be near ungankable and is an afk miners dream, crazy. It is beyond a joke.

The solution; make the Orca max personal mining ability be at about 50% of that of an Exhumer. Still worth an additional mining for the fleet without taking the role as best/primary miner away from Exhumers.


CCP has mostly given up on balance and is trying to just release "cool stuff". See citadels in wormhole space.

Is the orca cooler now? Yes.

Is it way too powerfull? Yes.

Does, CCP care? ...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2016-10-04 22:37:23 UTC
Jin Kugu wrote:
The orca is getting way too many buffs at once. Specific bays (ore, pi, whatever) have been used excessively already and mostly just remove any need to make choices when fitting a ship. This means people will be free to just fit max tank while at the same time getting more base ehp.
Removing fitting concerns is exactly what they're for. They keep large bays from being able to be expanded farther than intended since they can't be modified by mods. That eliminates the need to nerf them to the point that they have to be expanded to begin with.
Jin Kugu
Make Luv Not War
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2016-10-04 22:38:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jin Kugu
Ripard Teg wrote:
Please increase the Scan Resolution on the Orca.

Put it this way: can a high-sec Orca even lock one of the Catalysts ganking it before (a) the Orca dies, or (b) all of the Catalysts die? Can the same Orca lock and kill an untanked gank Talos before CONCORD does the job for him?

DPS is useless if you can't apply it.


"My 530k ehp afk mining boat isn't strong enough!"

EDIT: apparently a t2 fit orca will easily hit 530k ehp, uggh
Jin Kugu
Make Luv Not War
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2016-10-04 22:44:01 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:
Please increase the Scan Resolution on the Orca.

Put it this way: can a high-sec Orca even lock one of the Catalysts ganking it before (a) the Orca dies, or (b) all of the Catalysts die? Can the same Orca lock and kill an untanked gank Talos before CONCORD does the job for him?

DPS is useless if you can't apply it.


Guard your fleet with a fast-locking destroyer or interceptor, with sentry drones deployed by the mining fleet assisted to the guard. At a pinch you can use a scan-resolution-boosted hauler for the same job.

A lateral option is to have two Orcas, each providing one command burst and permanent remote reps to the rest of the fleet.

Fit for agility rather than tank, and warp out before hostiles land on grid.

Fit warp core stabilisers and warp out before getting blown up.


No, no the orca needs more buffs because maybe I might potentially at some point have to interact with another player.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2016-10-04 22:46:02 UTC
Jin Kugu wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:
Please increase the Scan Resolution on the Orca.

Put it this way: can a high-sec Orca even lock one of the Catalysts ganking it before (a) the Orca dies, or (b) all of the Catalysts die? Can the same Orca lock and kill an untanked gank Talos before CONCORD does the job for him?

DPS is useless if you can't apply it.


Guard your fleet with a fast-locking destroyer or interceptor, with sentry drones deployed by the mining fleet assisted to the guard. At a pinch you can use a scan-resolution-boosted hauler for the same job.

A lateral option is to have two Orcas, each providing one command burst and permanent remote reps to the rest of the fleet.

Fit for agility rather than tank, and warp out before hostiles land on grid.

Fit warp core stabilisers and warp out before getting blown up.


No, no the orca needs more buffs because maybe I might potentially at some point have to interact with another player.

Interesting response considering the complaint is about not being able to interact with an aggressing player before the NPC police arrive.
Jin Kugu
Make Luv Not War
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2016-10-04 22:52:15 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Interesting response considering the complaint is about not being able to interact with an aggressing player before the NPC police arrive.


We could just delay concord and facpo by 20 seconds if that's what you want.

That reminds me, when is CCP announcing the corresponding buff to ganking?

CCP Fozzie wrote:
we like to pair buff and nerfs to suicide ganking to keep things in balance
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2016-10-04 22:57:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Jin Kugu wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Interesting response considering the complaint is about not being able to interact with an aggressing player before the NPC police arrive.


We could just delay concord and facpo by 20 seconds if that's what you want.

That reminds me, when is CCP announcing the corresponding buff to ganking?

CCP Fozzie wrote:
we like to pair buff and nerfs to suicide ganking to keep things in balance

Or not buff Concord and instead look at whether the Orca's combat buff is intended as a gank response tool. Seems better to address the direct issue than get hyperbolic about it and pretend nerf all ganking is the only tool in the toolbox.

Is there a specific reason for not wanting the scan res? Or is this just general disagreement with the buff as a whole?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#60 - 2016-10-04 23:02:19 UTC
Jin Kugu wrote:

We could just delay concord and facpo by 20 seconds if that's what you want.

If we also get buffs to PG, CPU, & slots on all industrials and all barges, sure we can have slower concord.
Or you know, we could consider that a single ship that wasn't heavily targeted by gankers anyway is not a significant nerf to ganking and CCP considered that that particular ship was too weak for it's class & cost.